someones gonna get burned

OAKESY25 · May 6, 2009 12:34AM

from djfahrenheit
check out his clemente and koufax rookies... frosttastic
no way those are 8's
koufax
clemente

Mintacular · May 6, 2009 12:37AM

Agreed, how does that happen? Do people crack cases and replace the card?

fattymacs · May 6, 2009 12:41AM

Looks like craigslist stuff to me. Flips are fake, cards probably are too.

OAKESY25 · May 6, 2009 12:41AM

yep.. and he has a nice trick with the graded card case protector thing to hide the evidence

PoppaJ · May 6, 2009 12:49AM

Wow.... check out this Gehrig card that he also has listed .... without the plastic case protector! Talk about FROSTY

Pigs · May 6, 2009 12:49AM

I agree that is so lame to cover the card with a sleeve. Might as well put " I'm covering up something" on the outside. You truly hope people can tell this is a scam.

craigger · May 6, 2009 1:13AM

i just put in offers of $1 for each of his cards...i added ADDITIONAL COMMENTS of " $1 is all I will pay for FAKE CARDS".

EVERYONE should send him the same offer!!!

Downtown1974 · May 6, 2009 1:17AM

Someone bought the Clemente.

Mintacular · May 6, 2009 1:17AM

Think you guys are probably right but is it possible he was sold the cards this way and has no clue what he has is a fake? Is it possible to actually crack cases, replace a card, and reset them to look like it never happened? You would think PSA would produce cases that would make this impossible to happen...

OAKESY25 · May 6, 2009 1:19AM

it is possible he has no clue.. I think the cards are real.. but they are psa 5's at best..

Downtown1974 · May 6, 2009 1:21AM

Mint, The frosted edges on the case indicate it was tampered with.

OAKESY25 · May 6, 2009 1:21AM

of course it sold.. the guy was selling it well under vcp prices..
which is the tell tale sign that he knows it is a scam

rbdjr1 · May 6, 2009 1:36AM

I wonder why PSA does not get involved with law enforcement and go after these Internet fraudsters, crooks and thieves, that exploit PSA graded material, ...and that steal & rob fellow unknowning PSA hobbyists on the Internet?

Maybe PSA feels it is not their fight? Or just does not want to get involved with these Internet crooks and Internet PSA scam artists?

rd

edit: There is a link from the OP to an obvious PSA scamster, ...so go get him PSA!

summerof68 · May 6, 2009 1:36AM

Mintacular, to answer your question-yes. Unfortunately fraud is at an all-time high in the sportscard market today. Yes people open and reseal the psa slabs replacing the original card with a card of lesser grade or a counterfeit card. In this scenerio the resealing of the slab will give a "frosty" look on the borders of the case. Additionally psa cases themselves are being counterfeited in China and Chinese operatives have moved to areas such as Los Angeles; taken up residence and open ebay accounts; then placing counterfeit cards in counterfeit psa cases and on the flip they will use the psa serial # of an authentic card and case so when a potential buyer verifies the serial # with psa it will unfortunately come up as legit. These Chinese operatives are also counterfeiting PCGS coin holders as well and committing the same type of fraud. And what about the epidemic of resealed and counterfeit wax and cello packs that come on ebay literally every day. Case in point: last night a high-end vintage pack counterfeiter put on a raw 1961 baseball cello pack. The rear seals aren't even close to those of a legit '61 pack. This same seller has sold several of those bogus 1970 12-card "grocery" cellos over the last month as well. And he's personally responsible for selling several bad '58 bb cellos on ebay as well. Yet there are still educated buyers out there that don't know that Topps baseball cellos from 1970 to 1972 contained 30 to 33 cards and came in a little blue box with .25 cents printed on it and never produced a 12-card cello in those years. They also aren't aware that 1957 thru 1961 topps cellos have a very unique and distinct rear seal configuration which is very similar to that of a wax tray from the '70's. All the counterfeits, as with the one I referred to above, have the traditional "christmas package" type of rear seal which Topps used beginning in 1962. Fraud is so prevalent these days that it is imperative that collectors do all the homework they can if they want to enter the "unopened" arena or you will surely be burned bad. I hate to sound so negative but it's simply the state of affairs today in the market!

Mintacular · May 6, 2009 2:00AM

Had no idea. Thanks for the info. Do you have a pic of what a "frosted" case looks like? I just looked at my PSA cards and all I see is grey plastic.

Also, I am just going to throw this out there but could one argue PSA cases are not strong enough to deter this activity and perhaps should move to a stronger case? For example, I bet these scammers don't even bother going after BGS cases b/c they are rock solid.

MBMiller25 · May 6, 2009 2:05AM

<< but could one argue PSA cases are not strong enough to deter this activity and perhaps should move to a stronger case? For example, I bet these scammers don't even bother going after BGS cases b/c they are rock solid. >>

Absolutely yes you could argue that the cases are not strong enough, and I wish they would change the case on their products to a more durable/robust slab similar to the BGS slab to avoid having to worry about whats occuring in the above thread.

nightcrawler · May 6, 2009 2:10AM

<< could one argue PSA cases are not strong enough to deter this activity and perhaps should move to a stronger case? For example, I bet these scammers don't even bother going after BGS cases b/c they are rock solid. >>

One could argue that, but there are no cases that are fool proof when it comes to cracking and resealing. BGS SGC and all the rest are easily cracked and resealed.

lsutigers1973 · May 6, 2009 2:16AM

I have seen just as many tampered SGC holders as PSA. BGS holders on the other hand require a sledge hammer and an ogre to crack open.

OAKESY25 · May 6, 2009 2:21AM

requires a sledge hammer and an ogre to crack open..

this is what i use

bbcemporium · May 6, 2009 3:34AM

<< Looks like craigslist stuff to me. Flips are fake, cards probably are too. >>

How can you tell the flip is fake? I'm terrible at spotting fake flips. It seems that PSA has had multiple evolutions of there own flips and it makes it challenging to distinguish genuine vs. counterfeit. It is easier when I have an authentic flip to compare it to, but unless I have every variation of the authentic flips to compare against, it can be a guessing game. Any suggestions?

Also, it is nice to see Bill and mintacular participating amiably in a thread together!

StanTheManMusial · May 6, 2009 3:45AM

<< 

<< could one argue PSA cases are not strong enough to deter this activity and perhaps should move to a stronger case? For example, I bet these scammers don't even bother going after BGS cases b/c they are rock solid. >>

One could argue that, but there are no cases that are fool proof when it comes to cracking and resealing. BGS SGC and all the rest are easily cracked and resealed. >>

Ummm... yes, there sure is a tamper proof holder. BGS's holder is impossible to crack and reseal like the scammers do the PSA slabs. If you doubt this fact, go try it for yourself, and report back with the results.

summerof68 · May 6, 2009 3:54AM

Mintacular: I don't have a picture but an all grey case is what you want to have. On the frosted reseals you will see areas on the border of the case (where the original seal was located) that have a white, sugary look. These frosted areas are where glue was used by the slab buster to reseal the slab--very devious dudes I might add!!

***As a follow-up to my previous reply concerning the epidemic of resealed wax and cellos on ebay a raw 1970 baseball wax pack just came on ebay from another well-known and prolific pack counterfeiter. In fact this seller uses one ID to sell vintage packs and another ID to purchase vintage wrappers--and he's very prolific at both. Nevertheless in the '70 wax pack you can see that the piece of gum is the narrow type that Topps began using around 1980. Back in 1970 Topps used a much wider piece of gum--commonly refered to as a "slab" because of its size. This "pak maker" is either unaware of this or simply doesn't care because the buyer of this junk pak probably has no idea either.

lsutigers1973 · May 6, 2009 4:08AM

<< Ummm... yes, there sure is a tamper proof holder. BGS's holder is impossible to crack and reseal like the scammers do the PSA slabs. If you doubt this fact, go try it for yourself, and report back with the results. >>

Please scroll up about 4 posts above that comment.

StanTheManMusial · May 6, 2009 4:27AM

<< 

<< Ummm... yes, there sure is a tamper proof holder. BGS's holder is impossible to crack and reseal like the scammers do the PSA slabs. If you doubt this fact, go try it for yourself, and report back with the results. >>

Please scroll up about 4 posts above that comment. >>

Here is 4 posts up:

<<I wonder why PSA does not get involved with law enforcement and go after these Internet fraudsters, crooks and thieves, that exploit PSA graded material, ...and that steal & rob fellow unknowning PSA hobbyists on the Internet?

Maybe PSA feels it is not their fight? Or just does not want to get involved with these Internet crooks and Internet PSA scam artists?

rd

edit: There is a link from the OP to an obvious PSA scamster, ...so go get him PSA!>>

What's your point?

I was replying to nightcrawler's thoughts pertaining to the BGS slab.

onebamafan · May 6, 2009 4:28AM

<< it is possible he has no clue.. I think the cards are real.. but they are psa 5's at best.. >>

Agreed.......................

mtcards · May 6, 2009 4:30AM

I would have to agree that opening a BGS case is next to impossible without obviously destroying the integrity of the case. I could be wrong, but I would love to see a resealed BGS. I bought a graded rookie for my SP Football set in 1999 and since I was just putting the set in a binder, wanted to remove it. 15 minutes and two hacksaw blades later, I had my card, along with an unrecognizable piece of plastic.

csmtampa · May 6, 2009 4:50AM

BGS cases are hard to crack open, I had a few cards that were JSA authenticated, BGS slabbed, and those were the hardest things to get out of. Probably added some gray hair to my head, made me drink 16 beers, but eventually I got them all out OK. But the holders are not able to be re used....Which is a good thing. I think it would be quite impossible to bust a card out of a BGS/BVG holder and insert another.............

hammered · May 6, 2009 5:38AM

I've mentioned this on another thread, but "While It Was A Game" was found guilty of fraud for doing this very thing on a wide scale - cracking vintage cards, replacing with inferior, and selling. Tons of cards from what I understand, many of which were never recovered. It was several years back, but the auctions in question are old flips. Too bad PSA's cert verif link does not tell when it was graded - that might give a clue if these were some of theirs.
Point being, there are God knows how many of these vintage cards still circulating out there from these guys. The seller here could indeed be clueless.
But if he's got several of these listed, it increases the likelihood that he has tampered with them himself.

jimq112 · May 6, 2009 5:43AM

I feel bad for whoever it was that bought the gehrig caramel outside ebay. I think you lose a level of protection when you go outside ebay, I'd hate to be the one holding a $4000 fake.

WinPitcher · May 6, 2009 5:48AM

You mean these cards are not just over graded?

Steve

bobbyw8469 · May 6, 2009 8:28AM

I called PSA enquiring about the fake flips...the girl assured me they knew about them and were looking into them. She also basically told me, if you buy one, that you were stuck with it...they would not honor the card...

jimq112 · May 6, 2009 8:36AM

<< You mean these cards are not just over graded?

Steve >>

The font and bar code says they're part of the craigslist scam, I think the main scammer's name was jose gonzales, they were from california and sold these a couple summers ago. People bought them thinking they were getting steals, and many flipped them on ebay.

lsutigers1973 · May 6, 2009 8:42AM

<< What's your point?

I was replying to nightcrawler's thoughts pertaining to the BGS slab. >>

GEESH!! 3 posts up then, not 4. One more thing....never mind.

WinPitcher · May 6, 2009 8:56AM

Jim I was being sarcastic.

Steve

MULLINS5 · May 6, 2009 9:10AM

Frosty back of a fake PSA graded Gretzky rookie...

revmoran · May 6, 2009 9:25AM

I recently received a notice from some kind of Federal Crime Victims settlement fund about a eBay seller who was forging signatures in books - I had bought a book but mine did not have a signature and wasn't very costly, so I filed the notice away. But it gave me hope that there are investigations of eBay scams and there are a host of federal regulations that are violated when fraud is committed using the internet and US mail. I think these expensive cards would be a prime target for investigators.

StanTheManMusial · May 6, 2009 9:38AM

<< 

<< What's your point?

I was replying to nightcrawler's thoughts pertaining to the BGS slab. >>

GEESH!! 3 posts up then, not 4. One more thing....never mind. >>

Still, nothing there pertaining to my reply to nightcrawler.

nightcrawler · May 6, 2009 9:40AM

<< One could argue that, but there are no cases that are fool proof when it comes to cracking and resealing. BGS SGC and all the rest are easily cracked and resealed. >>

Ummm... yes, there sure is a tamper proof holder. BGS's holder is impossible to crack and reseal like the scammers do the PSA slabs. If you doubt this fact, go try it for yourself, and report back with the results. >>

I've cracked out a few BGS and SGCs, And if I had to argue on my own experience I'd probably say they're both bullet proof. But they're not, I've seen others crack and reseal both as examples on a different site.

StanTheManMusial · May 6, 2009 9:51AM

<< 

<< One could argue that, but there are no cases that are fool proof when it comes to cracking and resealing. BGS SGC and all the rest are easily cracked and resealed. >>

Ummm... yes, there sure is a tamper proof holder. BGS's holder is impossible to crack and reseal like the scammers do the PSA slabs. If you doubt this fact, go try it for yourself, and report back with the results. >>

I've cracked out a few BGS and SGCs, And if I had to argue on my own experience I'd probably say they're both bullet proof. But they're not, I've seen others crack and reseal both as examples on a different site. >>

I have seen SGC, PSA, and some of the lesser known generic companies slabs cracked and resealed, but never a BGS slab. I don't believe it can be done, because you have to crack the clam shell to get into it(the lip that overlaps). One you crack any spot on it, it splinters away and it's very obvious.. They are not like PSA slabs where you can get between the two pieces of plastic and pry it apart in the little groove. The BGS holder does not have a groove. The two layers overlap over each other, and are sealed water tight. Can you please provide the place where you claim to have seen this done? I have cracked out many cards from BGS slabs, and have even tried to see if it could be done, and there is simply no way possible due to the way they are built.

MULLINS5 · May 6, 2009 10:01AM

The biggest problem with getting a BGS, SGC, or PSA card out of its holder is that the person who attempts this is usually unprepared, and most of the time impatient. With the right set of tools anybody can cut any of these three holders like slicing a butter knife through a bar of margarine.

With that said, a scammer could slide a card out of any of these holders and then place a fake or lower quality card in its place, the victim will either be inexperienced or buying the holder and not the card. The scammer then cracks the case a little bit more and puts the pieces, the fake or lower graded card (usually a lower grade card since it is authentic) into the bubble envelope and sends to the buyer. The buyer gets the card all messed up and the seller says to 1) take it up with the postal service or 2) you should have bought insurance or 3) I’ll pay you the re-grade fee and you can resubmit it to the company for re-holder/re-grade… this is done to stall the customer as much as possible before it is too late to make a claim.
If it ever got to court (and my sister is a lawyer so I have spoken to her a lot on the subject) it would be a matter of facts…

a) did you sell this card on eBay?
b) yes
c) did the card arrive to the purchaser?
d) yes
e)case closed

You see, it is out of the sellers hands, up to the purchaser and shipping company..total scam that unfortunately works.

StanTheManMusial · May 6, 2009 10:41AM

<< The biggest problem with getting a BGS, SGC, or PSA card out of its holder is that the person who attempts this is usually unprepared, and most of the time impatient. With the right set of tools anybody can cut any of these three holders like slicing a butter knife through a bar of margarine.

With that said, a scammer could slide a card out of any of these holders and then place a fake or lower quality card in its place, the victim will either be inexperienced or buying the holder and not the card. The scammer then cracks the case a little bit more and puts the pieces, the fake or lower graded card (usually a lower grade card since it is authentic) into the bubble envelope and sends to the buyer. The buyer gets the card all messed up and the seller says to 1) take it up with the postal service or 2) you should have bought insurance or 3) I’ll pay you the re-grade fee and you can resubmit it to the company for re-holder/re-grade… this is done to stall the customer as much as possible before it is too late to make a claim.
If it ever got to court (and my sister is a lawyer so I have spoken to her a lot on the subject) it would be a matter of facts…

a) did you sell this card on eBay?
b) yes
c) did the card arrive to the purchaser?
d) yes
e)case closed

You see, it is out of the sellers hands, up to the purchaser and shipping company..total scam that unfortunately works. >>

I hear several of you guys making these claims, but I have yet to see proof of such on a BGS holder. I'm probably as prepared to crack a card out of the BGS slab as anyone. I wrench and or restore cars as a hobby, and I literally have a shop full of the proper tools to do any type of job(large or small). I have tried many ways, just tinkering in my spare time, and it's not happening on a BGS/BVG holder, without ruining the slab. There is no room or slit to get anything in between the clam shell layers to pry it apart. You have to literally compromise the plastic to open a BGS slab. With PSA or SGC you don't. I have open some SGC slabs with just my hands, and PSA slabs with something as simple as a butter knife on it's side in the little groove.

MBMiller25 · May 6, 2009 10:57AM

I agree with Tim, I would love to see a cracked BGS holder that has been resealed with either a fake or lower graded card replaced. There is no way to crack that holder and not destroy it.

MULLINS5 · May 6, 2009 11:11AM

I have only removed two BGS cards, and where they were more difficult than PSA and SGC, it wasn’t as hard as people make it out to be. I don’t want to get into a debate on garage tools, as I am the first to state that I know very little about them, but I have seen a hot knife used on PSA and SGC holders where the card will slide right out. I have not seen a hot knife on a BGS holder, but I have cracked a couple with no problems whatsoever (just took a little longer) once you get a good crack in it the card sleeve can be pulled right out ~just my experience with it.

As far as PSA is concerned, if I were Joe Orlando I could honestly care less about population reports and the current PSA holder because if it were tampered with then it shows, the point is not to prevent people from opening the case, but to show if someone has tried. And the way I see population reports is that you can crack cards out all you want and we will grade them, if I grade a card 82 times then I will post that I graded a card 82 times, and that number is accurate.

Patrick

StanTheManMusial · May 6, 2009 11:15AM

Patrick,

We are not talking about cracking the holder just to remove a card(that can be done with no problem). We are speaking of tampering with the holder by opening it, switching the cards, and resealing it to scam a buyer. It's just not happening without ruining the BGS holder.

MULLINS5 · May 6, 2009 11:25AM

<< Patrick,

We are not talking about cracking the holder just to remove a card(that can be done with no problem). We are speaking of tampering with the holder by opening it, switching the cards, and resealing it to scam a buyer. It's just not happening without ruining the BGS holder. >>

ahhhh, gotcha.

someones gonna get burned

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