all the nutty scenarios trying to show when cherrpicking is "dishonest" are full of crap. those are not reasons of honest, but just reasons of GENEROSITY, or some such thing.
if a price is marked & you offer pmt. & it's accepted, no matter how good a deal you got, it was HONEST. now it might be GENEROUS of you to pay more, but that do'nt make you more honest
"ethics" has absolutely nothing whatosever to do w/ cherrypicking. plain & simple.
The dealer is making a profit, what does it mater if someone purchases a coin from his inventory.
Why should the dealer receive a windfall profit on a coin he failed to properly identify. Someone had to sell it to him, they took a loss unknowingly, why shouldn't they receive the profit?
Let the riches go to the one that properly identifies the coin IMO.
Just because a dealer has the coins for sale doesn't mean they know there is a variety in there or some other rare coin. If, I am allowed to pick through a stack of proof IKES and buy a couple that I like, then I get then atributed as a DDO's
Is that cheating anyone? NO. There are great coins to still be found out there. In fact, some are in PCGS holder but are not attributed yet.
So, with knowledge comes power and it has nothig to do with who wears the dealer title.
The Cherry Pickers guide is an example where If someone studies a bit...They can acquire great coins for a fraction of the ones already attributed.
Cherry Picking is a great part of the hobby. It comes in finding varieties or thinking the coin has a shot at an upgrade.
So, If the dealer sells a coin to you..You crack it out and it goes up or down a grade, it's your baby. Not, the dealer that sold you the coin. Unless the sale of the coin had a partner thing attached to it.
At exactly the same point where you would call the dealer dishonest if the tables were turned. Ethics has absolutely nothing to do with on which side of the counter you are standing. >>
I agree, but if you already know hey are a slime ball I have at it.
If you've done your homework and studied coins, you've paid a price for your knowledge.
The reward is the ability to cherrypick coins.
Why are you obligated to tell everyone about something you've spent a ton of time learning about??? Of course if someone asks, I normally educate them.
Have you ever lost money on a coin??? Of course you have, but do you have the right to bring the coin back...no. Just the inverse of the question asked.
Mistakes are a different story. Always correctable.
Let's say I see a nice Ike, and I think it has a great shot at 67, but for sure 66. A 66 is worth say $200 and a 67 worth $4000. Should I pay $2000 no, because it't not for sure a 67.
Same goes with cherry picking. Not everything is as good as it appears, and sometimes yo think you win, and you loose.
If he's obese and smells like two day old hot dogs and beer, it's a no-brainer. >>
Do you discriminate against people based on weight? How about based on race or religion or ethnic group or........
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
If he's obese and smells like two day old hot dogs and beer, it's a no-brainer. >>
Do you discriminate against people based on weight? How about based on race or religion or ethnic group or........ >>
PH, I think you're not getting the whole picture. He said nothing about race or religion.
And he didn't solely say 'obese' people.
He painted a picture of the stereotypical 'coin dealer' who we all love to hate - the heavy set, sweaty coin dealer, who's unkempt, rude, unmannerly and yes, smelly. (coins are usually in stained 2x2's)
We have a few of these types in Canada too!!
I can't say I cherrypick this type of dealer because I avoid them altogether!!
"Gold is money, and nothing else" (JP Morgan, 1912)
"“Those who sacrifice liberty for security/safety deserve neither.“(Benjamin Franklin)
Come on Perry. Keith was joking about obese and smell. That's most of us. Talk to the airlines about charging for two seats with regard to discriminatory practices, please. Not us coin geeks. Most of us could shed a little weight and on top of that, Keith happens to be a kinder soul than most I've had the pleasure of dealing with.
P.S. I will edit this post in a couple of minutes. Just to say :
Cherrypicking is more honest than not cherrypicking.
I think the ethical circumstances are legitimately debatable. It doesn't become truly *dishonest* until someone turns lying or deceitful about what they found. If the cherrypicker says they found nothing special or (when asked) said there was nothing unusual or desirable about that particular variety, THEN it becomes dishonest.
In other words, the cherry picker isn't dishonest if they quietly go about their business. But if they spoke up and lied about what they found, then it is dishonest -- AND unethical as a result.
Pay the $28 otherwise the dealer really took advantage of the person they purchased the coin from in the first place.
If the dealer had been doing their job not only would they have recognized what the coin is and hence worth, they should then have paid an appropriate price for it from the original seller.
Bring it to the dealers attention only if you know they would be able to identify and pay the original seller the additional amount for the coin. How possible is it for a dealer to remember the seller of that coin? ....
I cherrypicked a dealer once and tole him about "ALL" the stuff in his box that he was missing. (It was my second show that I worked behind a table and during a lull in the show) He started grabbing stuff right out of the box on the spot and said " I'm not selling to you at grey sheet Joe". I felt bad and asked him why. His response was : "these prices are for sight unseen dealer to dealer and you're acting like a collector, Do you want the stuff or do you want to cherrypick me ?". Then I said : " Well I know, _______, but isn't it our JOB to protect OUR interests". I stopped shopping then and left. We have a great relationship still, but the "honest" part also cut me off from him and in my attempt to educate, I offended. Now I have to re-think how we can "trade". :HMMMMM: or...
If a dealer is asking a price on a coin, they have their price base on their cost. If you cherrypick and get a bargian, that is just part of the game. I picked up a little gem yesterday at a show (the pcgs pop is 1, and I own that coin). I asked the dealer before I looked at his stock if he had any cherrypickers varieties, he told he didn't and that he pulls them out of his stock and saves them for his personal collection. Now, he knew I was looking for these things, and he didn't seem to care that he sold the coin at a price probably based on what he paid.
President, Racine Numismatic Society 2013-2014; Variety Resource Dimes; See 6/8/12 CDN for my article on Winged Liberty Dimes; Ebay
I see no problem just paying the money asked for ($28). Dealer should know what he's got.If not,too bad for him.It is not dishonest to cherrypick a coin dealer.
It would be bad form to crow about your cherrypick later,however.You should keepa your moutha shut and say nothing about the cherrypick to other dealers or the dealer you bought the item from.
If a picture wasn't going very well I'd put a puppy dog in it, always a mongrel, you know, never one of the full bred puppies. And then I'd put a bandage on its foot... I liked it when I did it, but now I'm sick of it.
Norman Rockwell
Honest - a customer pays the dealer asking price of $28 for a coin worth $900.
Dishonest - a PNG dealer buys a $900 coin from a non-professional customer for $28. PNG code of ethics says "in dealing with non-professional customers - buying or selling at unreasonable prices - intentionally misrepresenting the value of a coin."
Honest - an ANA member dealer paying a widow $28 for a $900 coin. There are enough weasel words in the ANA dealer code of ethics that would allow this - "to purchase and sell numismatic items at prices commensurate with a reasonable return to the seller." The widow's husband may have purchased the coin for $2 in 1947, making the $28 "a reasonable return."
Dishonest - a dealer advertises in the Yellow Pages "we pay the highest prices for your coins" and then pays a retail customer $28 for a coin with a $900 value.
Robert Scot: Engraving Liberty - biography of US Mint's first chief engraver
Here's another hypothetical, just for the fun of it. If you think it is unethical for the customer to pay the $28 and take the folder with the $900 value coin in it. Would it become ethical if you paid the $28 and sold the same folder to someone else for $29?
My dealer knows I cherry pick, he likes it. He gets to learn something, and we both make money. Buying bust halves from him and turning a large profit off selling his coins only makes me go back to him more and more. There are some cherrypicks that i just cant do though, sifting through a bucket of his morgan/peace dollars in circulated condition came across a 1928 peace dollar, best one I've ever seen of that year/mint. Anyways I cound have been the ass and paid him $16 for the coin but I brought the mistake to his attention. This small jesture more then won the dealers trust that i would deal honestly with him. He was also knew my affection for bust halves and gave the set of Dansco albums for my birthday. He's currently invited to my wedding next month. Being honest with the dealer to me has aways been the best policy. Truth is it seemed that last coin show I was at most dealers liked me sifting though their bins, it makes their table look busy and attracts more customers. It all works out in their favor.
If I choose to put a doubled die 1941 Lincoln in a whitman folder and sell the folder to a kid for cheap because it cost me nothing to cherrypick except three cents and a loupe and I want for them to learn , and he sells it to a dealer for ten bucks and someone cherrypicks the dealer and makes a bundle, then I say : "God bless them". The eventual winner will do what must be done. He will WIN at what he does because he is an honest cherrypicker. There's nothing dishonest about this. NOTHING.
This is what makes a numismatist out of a coin dealer or a collector.
sifting through a bucket of his morgan/peace dollars in circulated condition came across a 1928 peace dollar, best one I've ever seen of that year/mint. Anyways I cound have been the ass and paid him $16 for the coin but I brought the mistake to his attention.
For coins in a bucket, am I correct in that there was one asking price for any coin that you might want out of the bucket,ie. $16,your choice? If so,I cannot imagine why you would consider yourself an ass for paying him what he wanted for any of the coins in the bucket. Also, what is the mistake that you brought to his attention?
If a picture wasn't going very well I'd put a puppy dog in it, always a mongrel, you know, never one of the full bred puppies. And then I'd put a bandage on its foot... I liked it when I did it, but now I'm sick of it.
Norman Rockwell
Hey Keith, I don't want you to feel like a victim, so I will tell you now that one of them $2.50 Gold Indians that you sold me for $300 came back from PCGS in MS 63. It's the 1925 D.
If somebody came in to my shop and scored a variety or something mis-atributed, its my fault as I am in the business and should know. it would be a great pick up for the buyer, and i would not hold any ill feelings toward the customer if he latter told me. I might kick my self for not checking, but certainaly not the buyer.
Same, if I go to another dealers shop and score, his loss , which happens on occasion !
<< <i>Hey Keith, I don't want you to feel like a victim, so I will tell you now that one of them $2.50 Gold Indians that you sold me for $300 came back from PCGS in MS 63. It's the 1925 D.
FACT ! No winks , brother. >>
I told you that I would send you a couple of nice raw coins, and that one would be lightly cleaned - the other was a "wobbler" in my mind.
Luckily () out of that batch of 80 or so gold coins I bought, I've had about a 60% success rate in submissions. Since they were bought at about 10% below AU bid at the time ($500 gold), we've both made out OK.
Comments
if a price is marked & you offer pmt. & it's accepted, no matter how good a deal you got, it was HONEST. now it might be GENEROUS of you to pay more, but that do'nt make you more honest
"ethics" has absolutely nothing whatosever to do w/ cherrypicking. plain & simple.
K S
Why should the dealer receive a windfall profit on a coin he failed to properly identify. Someone had to sell it to him, they took a loss unknowingly, why shouldn't they receive the profit?
Let the riches go to the one that properly identifies the coin IMO.
If, I am allowed to pick through a stack of proof IKES and buy a couple that I like, then I get then atributed as a DDO's
Is that cheating anyone? NO.
There are great coins to still be found out there.
In fact, some are in PCGS holder but are not attributed yet.
So, with knowledge comes power and it has nothig to do with who wears the dealer title.
The Cherry Pickers guide is an example where If someone studies a bit...They can acquire great coins for a fraction of the ones already attributed.
Cherry Picking is a great part of the hobby.
It comes in finding varieties or thinking the coin has a shot at an upgrade.
So, If the dealer sells a coin to you..You crack it out and it goes up or down a grade, it's your baby.
Not, the dealer that sold you the coin. Unless the sale of the coin had a partner thing attached to it.
Gardnerville, NV
=========================
Our Website -->Innovation, Native & Presidential Dollar Errors, Lincoln Cents and more
Check it out --> Our eBay Auctions
<< <i>
<< <i>When does cherry-picking turn dishonest? >>
At exactly the same point where you would call the dealer dishonest if the tables were turned. Ethics has absolutely nothing to do with on which side of the counter you are standing. >>
I agree, but if you already know hey are a slime ball I have at it.
The reward is the ability to cherrypick coins.
Why are you obligated to tell everyone about something you've spent a ton of time learning about??? Of course if someone asks, I normally educate them.
Have you ever lost money on a coin??? Of course you have, but do you have the right to bring the coin back...no. Just the inverse of the question asked.
Mistakes are a different story. Always correctable.
Let's say I see a nice Ike, and I think it has a great shot at 67, but for sure 66. A 66 is worth say $200 and a 67 worth $4000. Should I pay $2000 no, because it't not for sure a 67.
Same goes with cherry picking. Not everything is as good as it appears, and sometimes yo think you win, and you loose.
Take the good with the bad.
Ike Specialist
Finest Toned Ike I've Ever Seen, been looking since 1986
If he's obese and smells like two day old hot dogs and beer, it's a no-brainer.
Check out my current listings: https://ebay.com/sch/khunt/m.html?_ipg=200&_sop=12&_rdc=1
<< <i>Really depends on if I like the guy.
If he's obese and smells like two day old hot dogs and beer, it's a no-brainer. >>
Do you discriminate against people based on weight? How about based on race or religion or ethnic group or........
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>
<< <i>Really depends on if I like the guy.
If he's obese and smells like two day old hot dogs and beer, it's a no-brainer. >>
Do you discriminate against people based on weight? How about based on race or religion or ethnic group or........ >>
PH, I think you're not getting the whole picture. He said nothing about race or religion.
And he didn't solely say 'obese' people.
He painted a picture of the stereotypical 'coin dealer' who we all love to hate - the heavy set, sweaty coin dealer, who's unkempt, rude, unmannerly and yes, smelly. (coins are usually in stained 2x2's)
We have a few of these types in Canada too!!
I can't say I cherrypick this type of dealer because I avoid them altogether!!
"“Those who sacrifice liberty for security/safety deserve neither.“(Benjamin Franklin)
"I only golf on days that end in 'Y'" (DE59)
Talk to the airlines about charging for two seats with regard to discriminatory practices, please. Not us coin geeks. Most of us could shed a little weight and on top of that, Keith happens to be a kinder soul than most I've had the pleasure of dealing with.
P.S. I will edit this post in a couple of minutes. Just to say :
Cherrypicking is more honest than not cherrypicking.
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
In other words, the cherry picker isn't dishonest if they quietly go about their business. But if they spoke up and lied about what they found, then it is dishonest -- AND unethical as a result.
If the dealer had been doing their job not only would they have recognized what the coin is and hence worth, they should then have paid an appropriate price for it from the original seller.
Bring it to the dealers attention only if you know they would be able to identify and pay the original seller the additional amount for the coin.
How possible is it for a dealer to remember the seller of that coin? ....
Now I have to re-think how we can "trade".
:HMMMMM: or...
...did he start studying harder ?
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
President, Racine Numismatic Society 2013-2014; Variety Resource Dimes; See 6/8/12 CDN for my article on Winged Liberty Dimes; Ebay
should you tell me that thats a 2500.00 coin or would you just buy.
i'm sorry but if your the seller and don't do your homework "oh well"
if i'm at a table and find a great morgan vam , i'm suposed to educate the dealer???????
maybe he needs a new job.......or glasses.
oh the great dealers i shop at would not make that mistake.
It would be bad form to crow about your cherrypick later,however.You should keepa your moutha shut and say nothing about the cherrypick to other dealers or the dealer you bought the item from.
If a picture wasn't going very well I'd put a puppy dog in it, always a mongrel, you know, never one of the full bred puppies. And then I'd put a bandage on its foot... I liked it when I did it, but now I'm sick of it.
Norman Rockwell
Dishonest - a PNG dealer buys a $900 coin from a non-professional customer for $28. PNG code of ethics says "in dealing with non-professional customers - buying or selling at unreasonable prices - intentionally misrepresenting the value of a coin."
Honest - an ANA member dealer paying a widow $28 for a $900 coin. There are enough weasel words in the ANA dealer code of ethics that would allow this - "to purchase and sell numismatic items at prices commensurate with a reasonable return to the seller." The widow's husband may have purchased the coin for $2 in 1947, making the $28 "a reasonable return."
Dishonest - a dealer advertises in the Yellow Pages "we pay the highest prices for your coins" and then pays a retail customer $28 for a coin with a $900 value.
<< <i>It's not my fault if the seller doesn't know what they have got. >>
that can go both way. the non-knowing consumer; the non-knowing dealer.
The dealer based their price on what they paid for it. If someone paid $28.00; the dealer paid even less.
President, Racine Numismatic Society 2013-2014; Variety Resource Dimes; See 6/8/12 CDN for my article on Winged Liberty Dimes; Ebay
Being honest with the dealer to me has aways been the best policy. Truth is it seemed that last coin show I was at most dealers liked me sifting though their bins, it makes their table look busy and attracts more customers. It all works out in their favor.
This is what makes a numismatist out of a coin dealer or a collector.
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
For coins in a bucket, am I correct in that there was one asking price for any coin that you might want out of the bucket,ie. $16,your choice? If so,I cannot imagine why you would consider yourself an ass for paying him what he wanted for any of the coins in the bucket. Also, what is the mistake that you brought to his attention?
If a picture wasn't going very well I'd put a puppy dog in it, always a mongrel, you know, never one of the full bred puppies. And then I'd put a bandage on its foot... I liked it when I did it, but now I'm sick of it.
Norman Rockwell
<< <i>
<< <i>Really depends on if I like the guy.
If he's obese and smells like two day old hot dogs and beer, it's a no-brainer. >>
Do you discriminate against people based on weight? How about based on race or religion or ethnic group or........ >>
Nah... Weight doesn't bother me, as long as the two-day-old-hot-dogs-and-beer smell is absent.
I mostly discriminate against people who act like victims.
Check out my current listings: https://ebay.com/sch/khunt/m.html?_ipg=200&_sop=12&_rdc=1
FACT !
No winks , brother.
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
If somebody came in to my shop and scored a variety or something mis-atributed, its my fault as I am in the business and should know. it would be a great pick up for the buyer, and i would not hold any ill feelings toward the customer if he latter told me. I might kick my self for not checking, but certainaly not the buyer.
Same, if I go to another dealers shop and score, his loss , which happens on occasion !
a dealer offered me $250 for this after slabbing
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
I put alot of effort into this and like to find value...
Should I have educated her and said I could get this coin for $200 on a bad day on Ebay?
I've been shafted too many times through my own stupidity not to take advantage of the situation...
<< <i>Hey Keith, I don't want you to feel like a victim, so I will tell you now that one of them $2.50 Gold Indians that you sold me for $300 came back from PCGS in MS 63. It's the 1925 D.
FACT !
No winks , brother. >>
I told you that I would send you a couple of nice raw coins, and that one would be lightly cleaned - the other was a "wobbler" in my mind.
Luckily (
Check out my current listings: https://ebay.com/sch/khunt/m.html?_ipg=200&_sop=12&_rdc=1