<< <i>If someone really cared about the answer - all they'd have to do is check Heritage auction archives to see that in general CAC'd coins are indeed selling for a premium. >>
but are not the coins more then likely premium to have begun with and would have gotten a higher price compared to their peers even if CAC did not exist?
Correlation does not imply causation
edited to add: frankly i like CAC because it is rocking the boat of coin grading. anything that brings up the discussion of grade inflation and bad coins getting into holders is A-OK with me. >>
Correlation, however, does imply accuracy -- which in this case is every bit or even more important than causation.
Collector of Large Cents, US Type, and modern pocket change.
As far as CAC, the green sticker is an affirmation that the coin has been examined by one of the most knowledgeable and respected guys in the business, and was found to be solid for the certified grade. The presence of the CAC sticker is an additional piece of positive information about the coin. Should that translate into a dollar-value premium? In general, yes it should. Of course, the data would be more clear if every coin had already been submitted to CAC, so that the non-stickered coins were identifiable as not being CAC-acceptable. Since that hasn't happened, the premium for the CAC coins is not as clearly visible, as there are still many coins that are CAC-acceptable but don't have the sticker.
Look at it this way, if PCGS started differentiating two or three levels within each grade, wouldn't there be a consequent premium in market value for the higher subgrades? Of course there would.
<< <i>Just because one doesn't need insurance doesn't mean the insurance company is a 'leech'. They provide services that others need or they wouldn't be in biz. It's the same for CAC. >>
CAC is the same as insurance? what kind of nonsense is that??? sounds like something jabberfan would post
K S >>
Wifey slip a dumbkoff pill in your oatmeal this morning Dorky? He is saying that both CAC and insurance are services that some need or want and others don't. He never said that one is the same as the other. Those who prefer CAC likely do it more for the assurance than any perceived insurance. A maintenance contact on a new Sears clothes washer would be a good example of a service that some want or need and others don't. >>
dude get real, the analogy is crap
you financially NEED insurance, you DO NOT NEED "CAC"
i can't think of a single state that requires people to get cac stickers for their coins, but sure as he11 can think of some that REQUIRE you to get auto insurance. i can think of mortgage co's that require you to get insurance for the home you borrowed $$$ on, but can't think of a single insurance co. that REQUIRES stickers on your coins.
so lay of the dunce drink & stop trying to concoct bogus analogies that you think will support an absurd positiion
<< <i>Look at it this way, if PCGS started differentiating two or three levels within each grade, wouldn't there be a consequent premium in market value for the higher subgrades? Of course there would. >>
It's really not that simple, and you of all people should know that. There are many factors in a coin's selling price that have little to do with the number (or the sticker) on the slab.
<< <i><<FWIW I'd bet you'd be surprised at how many collectors can't grade all that well even with a slab in hand and a grade on the label.>>
I wouldn't be surprised in the slightest....they're the TPGs' and CAC's best customers. That's part of my point (in case you missed it). And since they can't grade, they rely on the label and sticker when they buy- rather than actually learning something about grading, or the item... and later when they go to liquidate they get a nice dose of reality. "But wait, my coins are the best, because they have a sticker on them...what gives?" >>
By dose of reality you are saying that everyone who ever bought a CACd or slabbed coin sight unseen has lost money when they went to sell it? More idle prattle from the peanut gallery. >>
Show me where I ever said that "everyone who ever bought a CACd or slabbed coin sight unseen has lost money". What I was saying that people who don't know anything about grading or the items they're buying, who think that stickers and slabs are the be-all, end-all are going to get ripped sooner or later because all they're doing is closing their eyes and opening their wallets. And they get a "dose of reality" when they find that some (not necessarily ALL!) of what they bought wasn't as great as they thought. Some of the denizens of these boards will gladly crow about the undergrades and rips they find- but you hear little to nothing about when it goes the other way...and it does. 26 years of being in this business has at least taught me that much. I still stand by my assertion that stickers (and the idea of registry sets for that matter) cater more to ego than anything else. As to the "not making money at $10 a pop" assertion stated earlier...yeah, right. I'm sure they're wasting time and manpower in a totally humanitarian effort. I'll believe that when I see them filing for nonprofit status. If TPGs can make money at or near that level with much more labor and material cost, then CAC certainly can by simply applying stickers to other peoples' slabs.
<< <i>Just because one doesn't need insurance doesn't mean the insurance company is a 'leech'. They provide services that others need or they wouldn't be in biz. It's the same for CAC. >>
CAC is the same as insurance? what kind of nonsense is that??? sounds like something jabberfan would post
K S >>
Wifey slip a dumbkoff pill in your oatmeal this morning Dorky? He is saying that both CAC and insurance are services that some need or want and others don't. He never said that one is the same as the other. Those who prefer CAC likely do it more for the assurance than any perceived insurance. A maintenance contact on a new Sears clothes washer would be a good example of a service that some want or need and others don't. >>
dude get real, the analogy is crap
you financially NEED insurance, you DO NOT NEED "CAC"
i can't think of a single state that requires people to get cac stickers for their coins, but sure as he11 can think of some that REQUIRE you to get auto insurance. i can think of mortgage co's that require you to get insurance for the home you borrowed $$$ on, but can't think of a single insurance co. that REQUIRES stickers on your coins.
so lay of the dunce drink & stop trying to concoct bogus analogies that you think will support an absurd positiion
NOBODY REQUIRES STICKERS, PERIOD!!!
K S >>
Settle down and take your meds, karl.
I just bought earthquake insurance for my second house in California. It wasn't required, but I chose to buy it even tho it was quite expensive. It was my personal choice to spend the money because I will sleep better at night not having a significant amount at risk. How is it so different to want to have JA's opinion on a significant coin purchase? I'm getting a coin today that's going to cost me six figures. If I like it, I'm going to buy it CONTINGENT ON IT GETTING CAC'd. There are too many things the coin docs can to to a coin that I can't identify and I don't want doctored coins in my collection. It's really that simple for me.
If you don't want it or don't need it, then don't use it. But where do you get off saying that I shouldn't want it or use it? I've been collecting for 40 years. I know how to grade better than 95+% of all collectors. If I want to spend the slight additional funds getting a second expert opinion, then it's my fuddernutting business - not yours.
<< <i>Just because one doesn't need insurance doesn't mean the insurance company is a 'leech'. They provide services that others need or they wouldn't be in biz. It's the same for CAC. >>
CAC is the same as insurance? what kind of nonsense is that??? sounds like something jabberfan would post
K S >>
Wifey slip a dumbkoff pill in your oatmeal this morning Dorky? He is saying that both CAC and insurance are services that some need or want and others don't. He never said that one is the same as the other. Those who prefer CAC likely do it more for the assurance than any perceived insurance. A maintenance contact on a new Sears clothes washer would be a good example of a service that some want or need and others don't. >>
dude get real, the analogy is crap
you financially NEED insurance, you DO NOT NEED "CAC"
i can't think of a single state that requires people to get cac stickers for their coins, but sure as he11 can think of some that REQUIRE you to get auto insurance. i can think of mortgage co's that require you to get insurance for the home you borrowed $$$ on, but can't think of a single insurance co. that REQUIRES stickers on your coins.
so lay of the dunce drink & stop trying to concoct bogus analogies that you think will support an absurd positiion
NOBODY REQUIRES STICKERS, PERIOD!!!
K S >>
Yes of course there is some insurance that is required, but there is also a lot that is optional. That doesn't make those folks selling the optional insurance leeches.
using a insurance analogy is not very good in my mind.
it would be better to compare a CAC sticker to having a car you plan to buy be checked over by an intelligent and professional mechanic who specializes in what you are buying.
<< <i><<FWIW I'd bet you'd be surprised at how many collectors can't grade all that well even with a slab in hand and a grade on the label.>>
I wouldn't be surprised in the slightest....they're the TPGs' and CAC's best customers. That's part of my point (in case you missed it). And since they can't grade, they rely on the label and sticker when they buy- rather than actually learning something about grading, or the item... and later when they go to liquidate they get a nice dose of reality. "But wait, my coins are the best, because they have a sticker on them...what gives?" >>
By dose of reality you are saying that everyone who ever bought a CACd or slabbed coin sight unseen has lost money when they went to sell it? More idle prattle from the peanut gallery. >>
Show me where I ever said that "everyone who ever bought a CACd or slabbed coin sight unseen has lost money". What I was saying that people who don't know anything about grading or the items they're buying, who think that stickers and slabs are the be-all, end-all are going to get ripped sooner or later because all they're doing is closing their eyes and opening their wallets. And they get a "dose of reality" when they find that some (not necessarily ALL!) of what they bought wasn't as great as they thought. Some of the denizens of these boards will gladly crow about the undergrades and rips they find- but you hear little to nothing about when it goes the other way...and it does. 26 years of being in this business has at least taught me that much. I still stand by my assertion that stickers (and the idea of registry sets for that matter) cater more to ego than anything else. As to the "not making money at $10 a pop" assertion stated earlier...yeah, right. I'm sure they're wasting time and manpower in a totally humanitarian effort. I'll believe that when I see them filing for nonprofit status. If TPGs can make money at or near that level with much more labor and material cost, then CAC certainly can by simply applying stickers to other peoples' slabs.
>>
Well the CAC thing is based on technical grade and not eye appeal. Just because a coin is technically graded correctly does not mean that it looks good irregardless if it has a sticker or not. Hell, I even returned one myself. I think the % of folks who get that "dose of reality" to which you refer will be fairly small. He said he makes his money by making a market for the stickered coins. I have no reason to believe that JA would lie. Do you?
I never said or inferred that anyone was a liar. So he's going to make money by making a market for CAC'ed coins? That's only obvious. You have to create a market to perpetuate CAC. Smart business, conflict of interest notwithstanding.
<< <i>So, it's do as I say, not as I do then.
I've been collecting coins on and off for 30 years, and I find value in the CAC -- and it has nothing to do with any premium associated with selling the coin, but rather because I realize my knowledge isn't perfect and I value the opinions of others with more experience than I. I [sic] suppose that doesn't apply to you, but please don't presume the motivations/skill level of others....Mike >>
Hey, if you think CAC coins are great and you're confident enough in your own abilities that you feel you are getting value received....awesome. But the simple fact remains that there are plenty of people out there who are more than willing to simply take someone else's word without knowing anything whatsoever about what they are doing, and simply think that if it is in a slab and has a sticker, it's automatically accurately graded, better than the rest and worth more. And you (hopefully) know that's not true. As pointed out by others, no one gets it right all the time, and there are plenty of cow patties in slabs with stickers...if a buyer/collector/investor (or dealer for that matter) doesn't educate him/herself about what they are buying, it's only a matter of time before they get hosed...and usually sooner than later.
As to the "do as I say" remark, once again...I never said or inferred that I don't deal in TPG stuff nor did I say or infer that ALL TPG/CAC stuff is necessarily inaccurately graded. But some is, and having a sticker doesn't change that.
<< <i>using a insurance analogy is not very good in my mind.
it would be better to compare a CAC sticker to having a car you plan to buy be checked over by an intelligent and professional mechanic who specializes in what you are buying. >>
i'd say its more like, you buy a red sports car. then you pay someone to issue a certificate stating that the car really is red, & not just red-brown. then you pay someone else to tell you that the person that gave you the color certificate was'nt colorblind.
it's all kinda confusing but hey, when you confuse a buyer it makes it easier to sell him something.
Generalizing a tad, but... 1) When someone wants to defend the CAC sticker, this question is always brought up in some way, "Do you think you can grade better than PCGS/NGC professionals?" But... everytime a coin is shown in an NGC slab (sometimes even PCGS), everybody on the board can swear it's way overgraded! And this from a picture! So I guess most of you CAN grade better than the TPG's!
2) The CAC is NOT making money... Yeah, those little stickers sell for over $10 a piece! Wanna buy a bridge?
3) According to the popular wisdom on this board... NGC ALWAYS grades a point higher than PCGS! Since the CAC has stickered a good number of NGC coins, it follows that they don't know how to grade, right?
4) Everyone seems to conviently forget that the CAC started out saying that there sticker meant PREMIUM QUALITY FOR THE GRADE! Then it was changed to "yeah, the TPG got it right", ACCEPTABLE FOR THE GRADE! Sounds like they couldn't make enough on PQ coins.
5) If you like stickers on your slabs, great, I don't have a problem with it, but if you want to convince people that "The best grader on the planet" is looking at EVERY coin, that bothers me.
Maybe we need another sticker to correct the error made by the TPG AND the first sticker! Anybody else remember when collecting COINS was a fun hobby? Now it's all about which flavor of plastic, and who's got the weird little sticker. Sometimes I think all of you guys are totally insane, but, that's okay, 'cause so am I :-)
<< <i>Generalizing a tad, but... 1) When someone wants to defend the CAC sticker, this question is always brought up in some way, "Do you think you can grade better than PCGS/NGC professionals?" But... everytime a coin is shown in an NGC slab (sometimes even PCGS), everybody on the board can swear it's way overgraded! And this from a picture! So I guess most of you CAN grade better than the TPG's!
2) The CAC is NOT making money... Yeah, those little stickers sell for over $10 a piece! Wanna buy a bridge?
3) According to the popular wisdom on this board... NGC ALWAYS grades a point higher than PCGS! Since the CAC has stickered a good number of NGC coins, it follows that they don't know how to grade, right?
4) Everyone seems to conviently forget that the CAC started out saying that there sticker meant PREMIUM QUALITY FOR THE GRADE! Then it was changed to "yeah, the TPG got it right", ACCEPTABLE FOR THE GRADE! Sounds like they couldn't make enough on PQ coins.
5) If you like stickers on your slabs, great, I don't have a problem with it, but if you want to convince people that "The best grader on the planet" is looking at EVERY coin, that bothers me.
Maybe we need another sticker to correct the error made by the TPG AND the first sticker! Anybody else remember when collecting COINS was a fun hobby? Now it's all about which flavor of plastic, and who's got the weird little sticker. Sometimes I think all of you guys are totally insane, but, that's okay, 'cause so am I :-) >>
<< <i> But the simple fact remains that there are plenty of people out there who are more than willing to simply take someone else's word without knowing anything whatsoever about what they are doing, and simply think that if it is in a slab and has a sticker, it's automatically accurately graded, better than the rest and worth more. >>
Please show me a single example of a person who subscribes to this credo. If there are "plenty" you shouldn't have trouble pointing out one...
However, there aren't "plenty' of people despite your "simple fact". Most collectors are just like you and I -- collectors who purchase coins for the coins themselves and recognize that a grade and a sticker are just opinions. That said, the difference between you and I, if I've read your posts correctly, is that you think you don't need any help grading or spotting problem coins, and I realize and admit that I do.
Collector of Large Cents, US Type, and modern pocket change.
That said, the difference between you and I, if I've read your posts correctly, is that you think you don't need any help grading or spotting problem coins, and I realize and admit that I do.
<< <i> But the simple fact remains that there are plenty of people out there who are more than willing to simply take someone else's word without knowing anything whatsoever about what they are doing, and simply think that if it is in a slab and has a sticker, it's automatically accurately graded, better than the rest and worth more. >>
Please show me a single example of a person who subscribes to this credo. If there are "plenty" you shouldn't have trouble pointing out one... >>
<< <i> But the simple fact remains that there are plenty of people out there who are more than willing to simply take someone else's word without knowing anything whatsoever about what they are doing, and simply think that if it is in a slab and has a sticker, it's automatically accurately graded, better than the rest and worth more. >>
Please show me a single example of a person who subscribes to this credo. If there are "plenty" you shouldn't have trouble pointing out one... >>
Mike, it seems eBay is loaded with examples. >>
Really? Please send me a link....
That asked, were they buyers or sellers?
Collector of Large Cents, US Type, and modern pocket change.
Would be interesting to take stckered and non-stickered coins around and oferr them for sale to dealers and see what price spread there is.
Just saying that the stickered coins sell for more doesn't really tell you why. It could be a few options.
1) The coin is premium and is worth more money. 2) The coin would have sold for more money anyway without a sticker. 3) The sticker itself is why the coin is selling for more, ie. perception of value whether it is there or not.
<< <i>Please show me a single example of a person who subscribes to this credo. If there are "plenty" you shouldn't have trouble pointing out one... >>
I'm always amused when someone picks out one word and obtusely tries to use it to dismiss a larger more general point. "You said PLENTY so give me specifics, and if you can't or won't, then I'm right and you're not". Go interview some of the people who spend double retail for common stuff in slabs from the tv scammers and shadier telemarketers if you want proof. Or check out ebay for some of the "I got ripped" stories on ebay boards that stem from gullibility and a lack of knowledge. They think that it's worth a premium because it's in the magic holder with the magic numbers and/or sticker because that's what they're told and they don't know anything different because they don't learn about what they're buying beforehand. Several have graced our store...of course since you deem me a know-it-all, you likely deem me a liar as well so I'm not sure why I'm bothering to respond.
<< <i>...the difference between you and I, if I've read your posts correctly, is that you think you don't need any help grading or spotting problem coins, and I realize and admit that I do. >>
Then you obviously haven't read my posts correctly. Anyone who thinks they know everything about grading and authenticity is a fool, and that includes the "Experts" at the TPGs, CAC, etc. What I "think" is that people shouldn't blindly rely on someone else's word and should learn something about what they're doing before jumping in with both feet. That's the entire point I'm trying to make here.
While I'm generally "on your side" in this debate, I think that the TPGs and CAC can legitimately be called experts (no quotation marks needed ). That said, experts do make mistakes, but far less frequently than laypeople. Also, one way to learn about the hobby is to look at lots and lots (and lots) of coins and see what the experts' opinions were about them.
The main problem with the almighty sticker is that it reduces a very complex and qualitative process to a yes/no proposition. I would find CAC (COLLECTOR Acceptance Corp) much more worthy of its name if it actually provided a specific (written) analysis/checklist of why a coin is or is not worthy. And then there is always the problem of exactly where the line gets drawn, and why......
CAC (COLLECTOR Acceptance Corp) much more worthy of its name if it actually provided a specific (written) analysis/checklist of why a coin is or is not worthy.
What you capped is not the name. And all it takes is a phone call to JA to get a detailed explanation.
What I "think" is that people shouldn't blindly rely on someone else's word and should learn something about what they're doing before jumping in with both feet. That's the entire point I'm trying to make here.
I agree with you - but even after 40 years I still feel that I need the help cuz I don't know how to detect half of what they can do these days.
To me, the CAC deal is like taking your car to a garage, getting it repaired, then taking it to ANOTHER garage, because you aren't sure if the first garage fixed it. I guess, if you can't tell if the problem was fixed, the second garage would be helpful. That is, of course, if the second garage has a BETTER mechanic than the first garage, and that the BETTER mechanic is the one who examines your car. Of course, if the second mechanic is not better, maybe you should go to a third garage.... Cars are expensive enough, so I just go to a garage I trust the first time.
"Please show me a single example of a person who subscribes to this credo"
Mike, you gotta admit, there are plenty of people, on this very board, who constantly say "NGC always grades a point higher than PCGS". Kind of the same idea, as they have probably NOT seen every slabbed coin in existance. They are simply ASSUMING that coins in PCGS slabs are better.
<< <i>CAC (COLLECTOR Acceptance Corp) much more worthy of its name if it actually provided a specific (written) analysis/checklist of why a coin is or is not worthy.
What you capped is not the name. And all it takes is a phone call to JA to get a detailed explanation.
What I "think" is that people shouldn't blindly rely on someone else's word and should learn something about what they're doing before jumping in with both feet. That's the entire point I'm trying to make here.
I agree with you - but even after 40 years I still feel that I need the help cuz I don't know how to detect half of what they can do these days. >>
My apologies regarding the name. I believe it was called that at one point. It's now "Certified Acceptance Corp". Well at least I can't call them hypocrites anymore...
Look, I'm tired of this "just call JA" nonsense. If a corporation wants to be taken seriously in 2009, it needs to disseminate information via its web site. There is no other way to be sure that what JA tells me is the same as what he tells anyone else.
<< <i>I'm always amused when someone picks out one word and obtusely tries to use it to dismiss a larger more general point. "You said PLENTY so give me specifics, and if you can't or won't, then I'm right and you're not". >>
I chose that sentence to question because I didn't want to get into a pissing contest, and it centered on the point which I thought we disagreed.... You seem to think the CAC sticker is somehow being used to convince the gullible, and I dispute this.
Because I've not met a single person who was "more than willing to simply take someone else's word without knowing anything whatsoever about what they are doing, and simply think that if it is in a slab and has a sticker, it's automatically accurately graded, better than the rest and worth more". Those concerns are symptomatic of the TPGs and gullible people (which is what I was trying to get at in my first response to you), and to suggest that the CAC is somehow a party to it is a gross generalization and a mischaracterization, IMO.
<< <i>
<< <i>...the difference between you and I, if I've read your posts correctly, is that you think you don't need any help grading or spotting problem coins, and I realize and admit that I do. >>
Then you obviously haven't read my posts correctly. Anyone who thinks they know everything about grading and authenticity is a fool, and that includes the "Experts" at the TPGs, CAC, etc. What I "think" is that people shouldn't blindly rely on someone else's word and should learn something about what they're doing before jumping in with both feet. That's the entire point I'm trying to make here. >>
That's quite a different point from your first post, isn't it? You know, the one that inferred that the CAC is a "racket" catering to the ego-driven who are interested in "whizzing contests".
That said, I appreciate the clarification, and suggest that had you made that point in your first post, none of this back-and-forth would have happened. Then again, it wouldn't have allowed for the cheap shots to the CAC and people who have used their services, either.
Take care...Mike
Collector of Large Cents, US Type, and modern pocket change.
If a corporation wants to be taken seriously in 2009 it needs to disseminate information via its web site
So you are saying that PCGS isn't taken seriously because it doesn't include a detailed explanation on its website [or in writing] when it bodybags a coin?
I agree with you that it would be great to give a detailed written description with each coin that didn't sticker about exactly why not. How much would you like to be charged per word?
<< <i>"Please show me a single example of a person who subscribes to this credo"
Mike, you gotta admit, there are plenty of people, on this very board, who constantly say "NGC always grades a point higher than PCGS". Kind of the same idea, as they have probably NOT seen every slabbed coin in existance. They are simply ASSUMING that coins in PCGS slabs are better. >>
I admit no such thing. Please show me one that was serious in their comments. If you can find such a person, I respectfully suggest they are misinformed.
That said, that was not the credo I was referring to, it was this one: "there are plenty of people out there who are more than willing to simply take someone else's word without knowing anything whatsoever about what they are doing, and simply think that if it is in a slab and has a sticker, it's automatically accurately graded, better than the rest and worth more."
Collector of Large Cents, US Type, and modern pocket change.
<< <i>To me, the CAC deal is like taking your car to a garage, getting it repaired, then taking it to ANOTHER garage, because you aren't sure if the first garage fixed it. I guess, if you can't tell if the problem was fixed, the second garage would be helpful. That is, of course, if the second garage has a BETTER mechanic than the first garage, and that the BETTER mechanic is the one who examines your car. Of course, if the second mechanic is not better, maybe you should go to a third garage.... Cars are expensive enough, so I just go to a garage I trust the first time. >>
But what if there were no garages to be trusted (i.e. they all made mistakes)? Wouldn't it be prudent to send it to another garage for a second opinion.
Collector of Large Cents, US Type, and modern pocket change.
I get your point, but I still tend to agree somewhat with the statement, because , I would guess, MOST people are, at the very least, swayed by the number on the slab, and also by the little sticker.
<< <i>I get your point, but I still tend to agree somewhat with the statement, because , I would guess, MOST people are, at the very least, swayed by the number on the slab, and also by the little sticker. >>
I agree with you. However, that point is far different from the one that Telephoto was making.
Collector of Large Cents, US Type, and modern pocket change.
<< <i>If a corporation wants to be taken seriously in 2009 it needs to disseminate information via its web site
So you are saying that PCGS isn't taken seriously because it doesn't include a detailed explanation on its website [or in writing] when it bodybags a coin?
I agree with you that it would be great to give a detailed written description with each coin that didn't sticker about exactly why not. How much would you like to be charged per word? >>
PCGS provides many things when a coin is sent to them (including a piece of plastic). All CAC provides is an opinion. Furthermore, PCGS does provide at least a code indicating its primary reason for a "genny". I would love to have even more transparency and detail from PCGS, but overall I feel they provide good value.
You obviously have a fine relationship with Mr. Albanese and at the level you play at, it makes a lot of sense to consult him on your collection.
<< <i>All CAC provides is an opinion. Furthermore, PCGS does provide at least a code indicating its primary reason for a "genny". >>
FYI, I received a "reason" why for each of my coins that didn't receive a sticker -- and they were a lot more specific than the 8 standard reasons that PCGS gives.
To me, this was the most valuable information of all, however, I'm told you have to request this information.
Collector of Large Cents, US Type, and modern pocket change.
<< <i>That's quite a different point from your first post, isn't it? You know, the one that inferred that the CAC is a "racket" catering to the ego-driven who are interested in "whizzing contests" >>
Actually, it's a separate point. The first re:"racket" was hyperbole-driven to make a point. I still maintain that CAC and registry sets cater to ego and are both tools used to increase revenue.
That may be true for generic gold and such, but I'm highly skeptical that the majority of coins with CAC stickers are much more liquid because of them.
That may be true for generic gold and such, but I'm highly skeptical that the majority of coins with CAC stickers are much more liquid because of them. >>
CAC publishes bids for many of the coins it stickers. It has also drastically raised many greysheet bids for CAC stickered coins. How can something with published competive bids NOT be more liquid? The mere fact that CAC makes a market in its stickered coins raises their liquidity
<< <i>All CAC provides is an opinion. Furthermore, PCGS does provide at least a code indicating its primary reason for a "genny". >>
FYI, I received a "reason" why for each of my coins that didn't receive a sticker -- and they were a lot more specific than the 8 standard reasons that PCGS gives.
To me, this was the most valuable information of all, however, I'm told you have to request this information. >>
Thanks, good to know.
Out of curiosity, in what form did you receive the more detailed info?
That may be true for generic gold and such, but I'm highly skeptical that the majority of coins with CAC stickers are much more liquid because of them. >>
CAC publishes bids for many of the coins it stickers. It has also drastically raised many greysheet bids for CAC stickered coins. How can something with published competive bids NOT be more liquid? The mere fact that CAC makes a market in its stickered coins raises their liquidity >>
Gee, that's great to know. So where do I see those bids, so I'll know if the CAC coin I'm looking at is on the list of "drastically raised bids" and hence more liquid?
Don't know where you can see them. But it doesn't matter. Just the fact they are out there increases the liquidity.
For example: Greysheet bids were around $25k for seated dollars for the longest time. Now I believe they are around $50k because JA raised them. Granted, if you knew exactly where to go you could get near the $50k even before, but now you can get it many more places. Liquidity increased as a result of CAC.
<< <i>All CAC provides is an opinion. Furthermore, PCGS does provide at least a code indicating its primary reason for a "genny". >>
FYI, I received a "reason" why for each of my coins that didn't receive a sticker -- and they were a lot more specific than the 8 standard reasons that PCGS gives.
To me, this was the most valuable information of all, however, I'm told you have to request this information. >>
Thanks, good to know.
Out of curiosity, in what form did you receive the more detailed info? >>
I received an e-mail from my submitting dealer. The e-mail was the result of notes taken during a conversation he had with JA, as I understand things. I did request that I be given a reason when I submitted my coins to the dealer to send to CAC.
Collector of Large Cents, US Type, and modern pocket change.
<< <i>That's quite a different point from your first post, isn't it? You know, the one that inferred that the CAC is a "racket" catering to the ego-driven who are interested in "whizzing contests" >>
Actually, it's a separate point. The first re:"racket" was hyperbole-driven to make a point. I still maintain that CAC and registry sets cater to ego and are both tools used to increase revenue. >>
Fair enough.
I would also add to your last sentence "that are also used by collectors who are neither ego nor revenue-driven".
Take care...Mike
Collector of Large Cents, US Type, and modern pocket change.
It flabbergasts me that there are some out there that think JA is raking in the dough at $10/coin!
GET REAL!
You can bet the CAC graders are paid a healthy salary. And insurance costs for an operation like that have to be HUGE!
And if the quick turn-around times on current CAC submissions are any indication of the volume of coins being submitted, the numbers simply could not add up to big profits.
I think the $10 intro rate is the biggest bargain in numismatics today, period.
"Wars are really ugly! They're dirty and they're cold. I don't want nobody to shoot me in the foxhole." Mary
Comments
<< <i>
<< <i>If someone really cared about the answer - all they'd have to do is check Heritage auction archives to see that in general CAC'd coins are indeed selling for a premium. >>
but are not the coins more then likely premium to have begun with and would
have gotten a higher price compared to their peers even if CAC did not exist?
Correlation does not imply causation
edited to add: frankly i like CAC because it is rocking the boat of coin grading. anything
that brings up the discussion of grade inflation and bad coins getting into holders is A-OK
with me. >>
Correlation, however, does imply accuracy -- which in this case is every bit or even more important than causation.
There's a statement I can always agree with !!
As far as CAC, the green sticker is an affirmation that the coin has been examined by one of the most knowledgeable and respected guys in the business, and was found to be solid for the certified grade. The presence of the CAC sticker is an additional piece of positive information about the coin. Should that translate into a dollar-value premium? In general, yes it should. Of course, the data would be more clear if every coin had already been submitted to CAC, so that the non-stickered coins were identifiable as not being CAC-acceptable. Since that hasn't happened, the premium for the CAC coins is not as clearly visible, as there are still many coins that are CAC-acceptable but don't have the sticker.
Look at it this way, if PCGS started differentiating two or three levels within each grade, wouldn't there be a consequent premium in market value for the higher subgrades? Of course there would.
Best,
Sunnywood
Sunnywood's Rainbow-Toned Morgans (Retired)
Sunnywood's Barber Quarters (Retired)
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Just because one doesn't need insurance doesn't mean the insurance company is a 'leech'. They provide services that others need or they wouldn't be in biz. It's the same for CAC. >>
CAC is the same as insurance? what kind of nonsense is that??? sounds like something jabberfan would post
K S >>
Wifey slip a dumbkoff pill in your oatmeal this morning Dorky? He is saying that both CAC and insurance are services that some need or want and others don't. He never said that one is the same as the other. Those who prefer CAC likely do it more for the assurance than any perceived insurance. A maintenance contact on a new Sears clothes washer would be a good example of a service that some want or need and others don't. >>
dude get real, the analogy is crap
you financially NEED insurance, you DO NOT NEED "CAC"
i can't think of a single state that requires people to get cac stickers for their coins, but sure as he11 can think of some that REQUIRE you to get auto insurance. i can think of mortgage co's that require you to get insurance for the home you borrowed $$$ on, but can't think of a single insurance co. that REQUIRES stickers on your coins.
so lay of the dunce drink & stop trying to concoct bogus analogies that you think will support an absurd positiion
NOBODY REQUIRES STICKERS, PERIOD!!!
K S
<< <i>Look at it this way, if PCGS started differentiating two or three levels within each grade, wouldn't there be a consequent premium in market value for the higher subgrades? Of course there would. >>
It's really not that simple, and you of all people should know that. There are many factors in
a coin's selling price that have little to do with the number (or the sticker) on the slab.
<< <i>
<< <i><<FWIW I'd bet you'd be surprised at how many collectors can't grade all that well even with a slab in hand and a grade on the label.>>
I wouldn't be surprised in the slightest....they're the TPGs' and CAC's best customers. That's part of my point (in case you missed it). And since they can't grade, they rely on the label and sticker when they buy- rather than actually learning something about grading, or the item... and later when they go to liquidate they get a nice dose of reality. "But wait, my coins are the best, because they have a sticker on them...what gives?"
By dose of reality you are saying that everyone who ever bought a CACd or slabbed coin sight unseen has lost money when they went to sell it? More idle prattle from the peanut gallery. >>
Show me where I ever said that "everyone who ever bought a CACd or slabbed coin sight unseen has lost money". What I was saying that people who don't know anything about grading or the items they're buying, who think that stickers and slabs are the be-all, end-all are going to get ripped sooner or later because all they're doing is closing their eyes and opening their wallets. And they get a "dose of reality" when they find that some (not necessarily ALL!) of what they bought wasn't as great as they thought. Some of the denizens of these boards will gladly crow about the undergrades and rips they find- but you hear little to nothing about when it goes the other way...and it does. 26 years of being in this business has at least taught me that much. I still stand by my assertion that stickers (and the idea of registry sets for that matter) cater more to ego than anything else. As to the "not making money at $10 a pop" assertion stated earlier...yeah, right. I'm sure they're wasting time and manpower in a totally humanitarian effort. I'll believe that when I see them filing for nonprofit status. If TPGs can make money at or near that level with much more labor and material cost, then CAC certainly can by simply applying stickers to other peoples' slabs.
RIP Mom- 1932-2012
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Just because one doesn't need insurance doesn't mean the insurance company is a 'leech'. They provide services that others need or they wouldn't be in biz. It's the same for CAC. >>
CAC is the same as insurance? what kind of nonsense is that??? sounds like something jabberfan would post
K S >>
Wifey slip a dumbkoff pill in your oatmeal this morning Dorky? He is saying that both CAC and insurance are services that some need or want and others don't. He never said that one is the same as the other. Those who prefer CAC likely do it more for the assurance than any perceived insurance. A maintenance contact on a new Sears clothes washer would be a good example of a service that some want or need and others don't. >>
dude get real, the analogy is crap
you financially NEED insurance, you DO NOT NEED "CAC"
i can't think of a single state that requires people to get cac stickers for their coins, but sure as he11 can think of some that REQUIRE you to get auto insurance. i can think of mortgage co's that require you to get insurance for the home you borrowed $$$ on, but can't think of a single insurance co. that REQUIRES stickers on your coins.
so lay of the dunce drink & stop trying to concoct bogus analogies that you think will support an absurd positiion
NOBODY REQUIRES STICKERS, PERIOD!!!
K S >>
Settle down and take your meds, karl.
I just bought earthquake insurance for my second house in California. It wasn't required, but I chose to buy it even tho it was quite expensive. It was my personal choice to spend the money because I will sleep better at night not having a significant amount at risk. How is it so different to want to have JA's opinion on a significant coin purchase? I'm getting a coin today that's going to cost me six figures. If I like it, I'm going to buy it CONTINGENT ON IT GETTING CAC'd. There are too many things the coin docs can to to a coin that I can't identify and I don't want doctored coins in my collection. It's really that simple for me.
If you don't want it or don't need it, then don't use it. But where do you get off saying that I shouldn't want it or use it? I've been collecting for 40 years. I know how to grade better than 95+% of all collectors. If I want to spend the slight additional funds getting a second expert opinion, then it's my fuddernutting business - not yours.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Just because one doesn't need insurance doesn't mean the insurance company is a 'leech'. They provide services that others need or they wouldn't be in biz. It's the same for CAC. >>
CAC is the same as insurance? what kind of nonsense is that??? sounds like something jabberfan would post
K S >>
Wifey slip a dumbkoff pill in your oatmeal this morning Dorky? He is saying that both CAC and insurance are services that some need or want and others don't. He never said that one is the same as the other. Those who prefer CAC likely do it more for the assurance than any perceived insurance. A maintenance contact on a new Sears clothes washer would be a good example of a service that some want or need and others don't. >>
dude get real, the analogy is crap
you financially NEED insurance, you DO NOT NEED "CAC"
i can't think of a single state that requires people to get cac stickers for their coins, but sure as he11 can think of some that REQUIRE you to get auto insurance. i can think of mortgage co's that require you to get insurance for the home you borrowed $$$ on, but can't think of a single insurance co. that REQUIRES stickers on your coins.
so lay of the dunce drink & stop trying to concoct bogus analogies that you think will support an absurd positiion
NOBODY REQUIRES STICKERS, PERIOD!!!
K S >>
Yes of course there is some insurance that is required, but there is also a lot that is optional. That doesn't make those folks selling the optional insurance leeches.
it would be better to compare a CAC sticker to having a car you plan to buy
be checked over by an intelligent and professional mechanic who specializes
in what you are buying.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i><<FWIW I'd bet you'd be surprised at how many collectors can't grade all that well even with a slab in hand and a grade on the label.>>
I wouldn't be surprised in the slightest....they're the TPGs' and CAC's best customers. That's part of my point (in case you missed it). And since they can't grade, they rely on the label and sticker when they buy- rather than actually learning something about grading, or the item... and later when they go to liquidate they get a nice dose of reality. "But wait, my coins are the best, because they have a sticker on them...what gives?"
By dose of reality you are saying that everyone who ever bought a CACd or slabbed coin sight unseen has lost money when they went to sell it? More idle prattle from the peanut gallery. >>
Show me where I ever said that "everyone who ever bought a CACd or slabbed coin sight unseen has lost money". What I was saying that people who don't know anything about grading or the items they're buying, who think that stickers and slabs are the be-all, end-all are going to get ripped sooner or later because all they're doing is closing their eyes and opening their wallets. And they get a "dose of reality" when they find that some (not necessarily ALL!) of what they bought wasn't as great as they thought. Some of the denizens of these boards will gladly crow about the undergrades and rips they find- but you hear little to nothing about when it goes the other way...and it does. 26 years of being in this business has at least taught me that much. I still stand by my assertion that stickers (and the idea of registry sets for that matter) cater more to ego than anything else. As to the "not making money at $10 a pop" assertion stated earlier...yeah, right. I'm sure they're wasting time and manpower in a totally humanitarian effort. I'll believe that when I see them filing for nonprofit status. If TPGs can make money at or near that level with much more labor and material cost, then CAC certainly can by simply applying stickers to other peoples' slabs.
Well the CAC thing is based on technical grade and not eye appeal. Just because a coin is technically graded correctly does not mean that it looks good irregardless if it has a sticker or not. Hell, I even returned one myself. I think the % of folks who get that "dose of reality" to which you refer will be fairly small. He said he makes his money by making a market for the stickered coins. I have no reason to believe that JA would lie. Do you?
<< <i>So, it's do as I say, not as I do then.
I've been collecting coins on and off for 30 years, and I find value in the CAC -- and it has nothing to do with any premium associated with selling the coin, but rather because I realize my knowledge isn't perfect and I value the opinions of others with more experience than I. I [sic] suppose that doesn't apply to you, but please don't presume the motivations/skill level of others....Mike >>
Hey, if you think CAC coins are great and you're confident enough in your own abilities that you feel you are getting value received....awesome. But the simple fact remains that there are plenty of people out there who are more than willing to simply take someone else's word without knowing anything whatsoever about what they are doing, and simply think that if it is in a slab and has a sticker, it's automatically accurately graded, better than the rest and worth more. And you (hopefully) know that's not true. As pointed out by others, no one gets it right all the time, and there are plenty of cow patties in slabs with stickers...if a buyer/collector/investor (or dealer for that matter) doesn't educate him/herself about what they are buying, it's only a matter of time before they get hosed...and usually sooner than later.
As to the "do as I say" remark, once again...I never said or inferred that I don't deal in TPG stuff nor did I say or infer that ALL TPG/CAC stuff is necessarily inaccurately graded. But some is, and having a sticker doesn't change that.
RIP Mom- 1932-2012
<< <i>using a insurance analogy is not very good in my mind.
it would be better to compare a CAC sticker to having a car you plan to buy
be checked over by an intelligent and professional mechanic who specializes
in what you are buying. >>
i'd say its more like, you buy a red sports car. then you pay someone to issue a certificate stating that the car really is red, & not just red-brown. then you pay someone else to tell you that the person that gave you the color certificate was'nt colorblind.
it's all kinda confusing but hey, when you confuse a buyer it makes it easier to sell him something.
(this is where jabberfan posts a nutty remark)
K S
1) When someone wants to defend the CAC sticker, this question is always brought up in some way, "Do you think you can grade better than PCGS/NGC professionals?"
But... everytime a coin is shown in an NGC slab (sometimes even PCGS), everybody on the board can swear it's way overgraded! And this from a picture! So I guess most of you CAN grade better than the TPG's!
2) The CAC is NOT making money... Yeah, those little stickers sell for over $10 a piece! Wanna buy a bridge?
3) According to the popular wisdom on this board... NGC ALWAYS grades a point higher than PCGS! Since the CAC has stickered a good number of NGC coins, it follows that they don't know how to grade, right?
4) Everyone seems to conviently forget that the CAC started out saying that there sticker meant PREMIUM QUALITY FOR THE GRADE! Then it was changed to "yeah, the TPG got it right", ACCEPTABLE FOR THE GRADE! Sounds like they couldn't make enough on PQ coins.
5) If you like stickers on your slabs, great, I don't have a problem with it, but if you want to convince people that "The best grader on the planet" is looking at EVERY coin, that bothers me.
Maybe we need another sticker to correct the error made by the TPG AND the first sticker!
Anybody else remember when collecting COINS was a fun hobby? Now it's all about which flavor of plastic, and who's got the weird little sticker.
Sometimes I think all of you guys are totally insane, but, that's okay, 'cause so am I :-)
<< <i>Generalizing a tad, but...
1) When someone wants to defend the CAC sticker, this question is always brought up in some way, "Do you think you can grade better than PCGS/NGC professionals?"
But... everytime a coin is shown in an NGC slab (sometimes even PCGS), everybody on the board can swear it's way overgraded! And this from a picture! So I guess most of you CAN grade better than the TPG's!
2) The CAC is NOT making money... Yeah, those little stickers sell for over $10 a piece! Wanna buy a bridge?
3) According to the popular wisdom on this board... NGC ALWAYS grades a point higher than PCGS! Since the CAC has stickered a good number of NGC coins, it follows that they don't know how to grade, right?
4) Everyone seems to conviently forget that the CAC started out saying that there sticker meant PREMIUM QUALITY FOR THE GRADE! Then it was changed to "yeah, the TPG got it right", ACCEPTABLE FOR THE GRADE! Sounds like they couldn't make enough on PQ coins.
5) If you like stickers on your slabs, great, I don't have a problem with it, but if you want to convince people that "The best grader on the planet" is looking at EVERY coin, that bothers me.
Maybe we need another sticker to correct the error made by the TPG AND the first sticker!
Anybody else remember when collecting COINS was a fun hobby? Now it's all about which flavor of plastic, and who's got the weird little sticker.
Sometimes I think all of you guys are totally insane, but, that's okay, 'cause so am I :-) >>
Bravo
RIP Mom- 1932-2012
<< <i> But the simple fact remains that there are plenty of people out there who are more than willing to simply take someone else's word without knowing anything whatsoever about what they are doing, and simply think that if it is in a slab and has a sticker, it's automatically accurately graded, better than the rest and worth more. >>
Please show me a single example of a person who subscribes to this credo. If there are "plenty" you shouldn't have trouble pointing out one...
However, there aren't "plenty' of people despite your "simple fact". Most collectors are just like you and I -- collectors who purchase coins for the coins themselves and recognize that a grade and a sticker are just opinions. That said, the difference between you and I, if I've read your posts correctly, is that you think you don't need any help grading or spotting problem coins, and I realize and admit that I do.
Ditto.
<< <i>
<< <i> But the simple fact remains that there are plenty of people out there who are more than willing to simply take someone else's word without knowing anything whatsoever about what they are doing, and simply think that if it is in a slab and has a sticker, it's automatically accurately graded, better than the rest and worth more. >>
Please show me a single example of a person who subscribes to this credo. If there are "plenty" you shouldn't have trouble pointing out one... >>
Mike, it seems eBay is loaded with examples.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i> But the simple fact remains that there are plenty of people out there who are more than willing to simply take someone else's word without knowing anything whatsoever about what they are doing, and simply think that if it is in a slab and has a sticker, it's automatically accurately graded, better than the rest and worth more. >>
Please show me a single example of a person who subscribes to this credo. If there are "plenty" you shouldn't have trouble pointing out one... >>
Mike, it seems eBay is loaded with examples. >>
Really? Please send me a link....
That asked, were they buyers or sellers?
Just saying that the stickered coins sell for more doesn't really tell you why. It could be a few options.
1) The coin is premium and is worth more money.
2) The coin would have sold for more money anyway without a sticker.
3) The sticker itself is why the coin is selling for more, ie. perception of value whether it is there or not.
<< <i>Please show me a single example of a person who subscribes to this credo. If there are "plenty" you shouldn't have trouble pointing out one... >>
I'm always amused when someone picks out one word and obtusely tries to use it to dismiss a larger more general point. "You said PLENTY so give me specifics, and if you can't or won't, then I'm right and you're not". Go interview some of the people who spend double retail for common stuff in slabs from the tv scammers and shadier telemarketers if you want proof. Or check out ebay for some of the "I got ripped" stories on ebay boards that stem from gullibility and a lack of knowledge. They think that it's worth a premium because it's in the magic holder with the magic numbers and/or sticker because that's what they're told and they don't know anything different because they don't learn about what they're buying beforehand. Several have graced our store...of course since you deem me a know-it-all, you likely deem me a liar as well so I'm not sure why I'm bothering to respond.
<< <i>...the difference between you and I, if I've read your posts correctly, is that you think you don't need any help grading or spotting problem coins, and I realize and admit that I do. >>
Then you obviously haven't read my posts correctly. Anyone who thinks they know everything about grading and authenticity is a fool, and that includes the "Experts" at the TPGs, CAC, etc. What I "think" is that people shouldn't blindly rely on someone else's word and should learn something about what they're doing before jumping in with both feet. That's the entire point I'm trying to make here.
RIP Mom- 1932-2012
While I'm generally "on your side" in this debate, I think that the TPGs and CAC can legitimately be called
experts (no quotation marks needed
laypeople. Also, one way to learn about the hobby is to look at lots and lots (and lots) of coins and see
what the experts' opinions were about them.
The main problem with the almighty sticker is that it reduces a very complex and qualitative process to a
yes/no proposition. I would find CAC (COLLECTOR Acceptance Corp) much more worthy of its name if it
actually provided a specific (written) analysis/checklist of why a coin is or is not worthy. And then there is
always the problem of exactly where the line gets drawn, and why......
actually provided a specific (written) analysis/checklist of why a coin is or is not worthy.
What you capped is not the name. And all it takes is a phone call to JA to get a detailed explanation.
What I "think" is that people shouldn't blindly rely on someone else's word and should learn something about what they're doing before jumping in with both feet. That's the entire point I'm trying to make here.
I agree with you - but even after 40 years I still feel that I need the help cuz I don't know how to detect half of what they can do these days.
Mike, you gotta admit, there are plenty of people, on this very board, who constantly say "NGC always grades a point higher than PCGS". Kind of the same idea, as they have probably NOT seen every slabbed coin in existance. They are simply ASSUMING that coins in PCGS slabs are better.
<< <i>CAC (COLLECTOR Acceptance Corp) much more worthy of its name if it
actually provided a specific (written) analysis/checklist of why a coin is or is not worthy.
What you capped is not the name. And all it takes is a phone call to JA to get a detailed explanation.
What I "think" is that people shouldn't blindly rely on someone else's word and should learn something about what they're doing before jumping in with both feet. That's the entire point I'm trying to make here.
I agree with you - but even after 40 years I still feel that I need the help cuz I don't know how to detect half of what they can do these days. >>
My apologies regarding the name. I believe it was called that at one point. It's now "Certified Acceptance Corp". Well at
least I can't call them hypocrites anymore...
Look, I'm tired of this "just call JA" nonsense. If a corporation wants to be taken seriously in 2009,
it needs to disseminate information via its web site. There is no other way to be sure that what JA tells me
is the same as what he tells anyone else.
<< <i>I'm always amused when someone picks out one word and obtusely tries to use it to dismiss a larger more general point. "You said PLENTY so give me specifics, and if you can't or won't, then I'm right and you're not". >>
I chose that sentence to question because I didn't want to get into a pissing contest, and it centered on the point which I thought we disagreed.... You seem to think the CAC sticker is somehow being used to convince the gullible, and I dispute this.
Because I've not met a single person who was "more than willing to simply take someone else's word without knowing anything whatsoever about what they are doing, and simply think that if it is in a slab and has a sticker, it's automatically accurately graded, better than the rest and worth more". Those concerns are symptomatic of the TPGs and gullible people (which is what I was trying to get at in my first response to you), and to suggest that the CAC is somehow a party to it is a gross generalization and a mischaracterization, IMO.
<< <i>
<< <i>...the difference between you and I, if I've read your posts correctly, is that you think you don't need any help grading or spotting problem coins, and I realize and admit that I do. >>
Then you obviously haven't read my posts correctly. Anyone who thinks they know everything about grading and authenticity is a fool, and that includes the "Experts" at the TPGs, CAC, etc. What I "think" is that people shouldn't blindly rely on someone else's word and should learn something about what they're doing before jumping in with both feet. That's the entire point I'm trying to make here. >>
That's quite a different point from your first post, isn't it? You know, the one that inferred that the CAC is a "racket" catering to the ego-driven who are interested in "whizzing contests".
That said, I appreciate the clarification, and suggest that had you made that point in your first post, none of this back-and-forth would have happened. Then again, it wouldn't have allowed for the cheap shots to the CAC and people who have used their services, either.
Take care...Mike
So you are saying that PCGS isn't taken seriously because it doesn't include a detailed explanation on its website [or in writing] when it bodybags a coin?
I agree with you that it would be great to give a detailed written description with each coin that didn't sticker about exactly why not. How much would you like to be charged per word?
<< <i>"Please show me a single example of a person who subscribes to this credo"
Mike, you gotta admit, there are plenty of people, on this very board, who constantly say "NGC always grades a point higher than PCGS". Kind of the same idea, as they have probably NOT seen every slabbed coin in existance. They are simply ASSUMING that coins in PCGS slabs are better. >>
I admit no such thing. Please show me one that was serious in their comments. If you can find such a person, I respectfully suggest they are misinformed.
That said, that was not the credo I was referring to, it was this one: "there are plenty of people out there who are more than willing to simply take someone else's word without knowing anything whatsoever about what they are doing, and simply think that if it is in a slab and has a sticker, it's automatically accurately graded, better than the rest and worth more."
<< <i>To me, the CAC deal is like taking your car to a garage, getting it repaired, then taking it to ANOTHER garage, because you aren't sure if the first garage fixed it. I guess, if you can't tell if the problem was fixed, the second garage would be helpful. That is, of course, if the second garage has a BETTER mechanic than the first garage, and that the BETTER mechanic is the one who examines your car. Of course, if the second mechanic is not better, maybe you should go to a third garage.... Cars are expensive enough, so I just go to a garage I trust the first time. >>
But what if there were no garages to be trusted (i.e. they all made mistakes)? Wouldn't it be prudent to send it to another garage for a second opinion.
<< <i>I get your point, but I still tend to agree somewhat with the statement, because , I would guess, MOST people are, at the very least, swayed by the number on the slab, and also by the little sticker. >>
I agree with you. However, that point is far different from the one that Telephoto was making.
<< <i>If a corporation wants to be taken seriously in 2009 it needs to disseminate information via its web site
So you are saying that PCGS isn't taken seriously because it doesn't include a detailed explanation on its website [or in writing] when it bodybags a coin?
I agree with you that it would be great to give a detailed written description with each coin that didn't sticker about exactly why not. How much would you like to be charged per word?
PCGS provides many things when a coin is sent to them (including a piece of plastic). All CAC provides is an
opinion. Furthermore, PCGS does provide at least a code indicating its primary reason for a "genny". I would
love to have even more transparency and detail from PCGS, but overall I feel they provide good value.
You obviously have a fine relationship with Mr. Albanese and at the level you play at, it makes a lot of sense
to consult him on your collection.
<< <i>All CAC provides is an opinion. Furthermore, PCGS does provide at least a code indicating its primary reason for a "genny". >>
FYI, I received a "reason" why for each of my coins that didn't receive a sticker -- and they were a lot more specific than the 8 standard reasons that PCGS gives.
To me, this was the most valuable information of all, however, I'm told you have to request this information.
That's not true, they also provide liquidity.
If you can recoup that cost on sale, so much the better - but the coin still speaks for itself, sticker or no.
For those who can afford it, CAC is cheap insurance. Nothing wrong with that at all.
Check out my current listings: https://ebay.com/sch/khunt/m.html?_ipg=200&_sop=12&_rdc=1
I kind of thought that the whole purpose of this thread was to find out if that is, indeed, true....
<< <i>That's quite a different point from your first post, isn't it? You know, the one that inferred that the CAC is a "racket" catering to the ego-driven who are interested in "whizzing contests" >>
Actually, it's a separate point. The first re:"racket" was hyperbole-driven to make a point. I still maintain that CAC and registry sets cater to ego and are both tools used to increase revenue.
RIP Mom- 1932-2012
<< <i>All CAC provides is an opinion
That's not true, they also provide liquidity. >>
That may be true for generic gold and such, but I'm highly skeptical that the majority of coins with CAC
stickers are much more liquid because of them.
<< <i>
<< <i>All CAC provides is an opinion
That's not true, they also provide liquidity. >>
That may be true for generic gold and such, but I'm highly skeptical that the majority of coins with CAC
stickers are much more liquid because of them. >>
CAC publishes bids for many of the coins it stickers. It has also drastically raised many greysheet bids for CAC stickered coins. How can something with published competive bids NOT be more liquid? The mere fact that CAC makes a market in its stickered coins raises their liquidity
<< <i>
<< <i>All CAC provides is an opinion. Furthermore, PCGS does provide at least a code indicating its primary reason for a "genny". >>
FYI, I received a "reason" why for each of my coins that didn't receive a sticker -- and they were a lot more specific than the 8 standard reasons that PCGS gives.
To me, this was the most valuable information of all, however, I'm told you have to request this information. >>
Thanks, good to know.
Out of curiosity, in what form did you receive the more detailed info?
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>All CAC provides is an opinion
That's not true, they also provide liquidity. >>
That may be true for generic gold and such, but I'm highly skeptical that the majority of coins with CAC
stickers are much more liquid because of them. >>
CAC publishes bids for many of the coins it stickers. It has also drastically raised many greysheet bids for CAC stickered coins. How can something with published competive bids NOT be more liquid? The mere fact that CAC makes a market in its stickered coins raises their liquidity >>
Gee, that's great to know. So where do I see those bids, so I'll know if the CAC coin I'm looking at is on
the list of "drastically raised bids" and hence more liquid?
For example: Greysheet bids were around $25k for seated dollars for the longest time. Now I believe they are around $50k because JA raised them. Granted, if you knew exactly where to go you could get near the $50k even before, but now you can get it many more places. Liquidity increased as a result of CAC.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>All CAC provides is an opinion. Furthermore, PCGS does provide at least a code indicating its primary reason for a "genny". >>
FYI, I received a "reason" why for each of my coins that didn't receive a sticker -- and they were a lot more specific than the 8 standard reasons that PCGS gives.
To me, this was the most valuable information of all, however, I'm told you have to request this information. >>
Thanks, good to know.
Out of curiosity, in what form did you receive the more detailed info? >>
I received an e-mail from my submitting dealer. The e-mail was the result of notes taken during a conversation he had with JA, as I understand things. I did request that I be given a reason when I submitted my coins to the dealer to send to CAC.
<< <i>
<< <i>That's quite a different point from your first post, isn't it? You know, the one that inferred that the CAC is a "racket" catering to the ego-driven who are interested in "whizzing contests" >>
Actually, it's a separate point. The first re:"racket" was hyperbole-driven to make a point. I still maintain that CAC and registry sets cater to ego and are both tools used to increase revenue. >>
Fair enough.
I would also add to your last sentence "that are also used by collectors who are neither ego nor revenue-driven".
Take care...Mike
<< <i>Out of curiosity, in what form did you receive the more detailed info? >>
I got a red sticker on one of my rejects that said "AT".
I thought that was a nice touch.
and they're cold.
I don't want nobody to shoot me in the foxhole."
Mary
Best Franklin Website
GET REAL!
You can bet the CAC graders are paid a healthy salary. And insurance costs for an operation like that have to be HUGE!
And if the quick turn-around times on current CAC submissions are any indication of the volume of coins being submitted, the numbers simply could not add up to big profits.
I think the $10 intro rate is the biggest bargain in numismatics today, period.
and they're cold.
I don't want nobody to shoot me in the foxhole."
Mary
Best Franklin Website
some series then others. I tend to like CAC,
PCGS Walking Liberties in MS-66 & 67 grades.
As this new service matures and gains
in hands on experience in the various series,
it may well prove to be a definite plus.
Camelot
and they're cold.
I don't want nobody to shoot me in the foxhole."
Mary
Best Franklin Website
and they're cold.
I don't want nobody to shoot me in the foxhole."
Mary
Best Franklin Website
and they're cold.
I don't want nobody to shoot me in the foxhole."
Mary
Best Franklin Website