Are dealers paying premiums for CAC stickered coins?

291fifth · April 14, 2009 11:07PM

Or are the premiums just another one way market?

(The question is prompted by a comment in another thread.)

BAJJERFAN · April 14, 2009 11:09PM

How would you determine what the premium should be?

Longacre · April 14, 2009 11:24PM

No one loves the CAC more than Longacre, and I have had good experiences with getting green beaned on my coins. However, one time I tried to sell a CAC coin back to a CAC authorized dealer, and she told me that she doesn't deal in dated gold, and referred me to another dealer. That is fine, because no dealer should have to buy everything that is offered to them, whether it has the bean or not. The price that I ultimately got for the coin was acceptable, but did not knock my socks off.

291fifth · April 14, 2009 11:37PM

<< No one loves the CAC more than Longacre, and I have had good experiences with getting green beaned on my coins. However, one time I tried to sell a CAC coin back to a CAC authorized dealer, and she told me that she doesn't deal in dated gold, and referred me to another dealer. That is fine, because no dealer should have to buy everything that is offered to them, whether it has the bean or not. The price that I ultimately got for the coin was acceptable, but did not knock my socks off. >>

Sounds like a one way market to me.

BAJJERFAN · April 15, 2009 1:16AM

<< No one loves the CAC more than Longacre, and I have had good experiences with getting green beaned on my coins. However, one time I tried to sell a CAC coin back to a CAC authorized dealer, and she told me that she doesn't deal in dated gold, and referred me to another dealer. That is fine, because no dealer should have to buy everything that is offered to them, whether it has the bean or not. The price that I ultimately got for the coin was acceptable, but did not knock my socks off. >>

Did you offer it to JA?

ksteelheader · April 15, 2009 1:43AM

They're just another leech on the numismatic tree.

erroid · April 15, 2009 1:43AM

"Sounds like a one way market to me."

Sounds that way to me too; dealers seem to want a premium for CACed pieces, but YOUR coins are still "less than desirable", CACed or not....

LanLord · April 15, 2009 1:48AM

<< 

<< No one loves the CAC more than Longacre, and I have had good experiences with getting green beaned on my coins. However, one time I tried to sell a CAC coin back to a CAC authorized dealer, and she told me that she doesn't deal in dated gold, and referred me to another dealer. That is fine, because no dealer should have to buy everything that is offered to them, whether it has the bean or not. The price that I ultimately got for the coin was acceptable, but did not knock my socks off. >>

Did you offer it to JA? >>

"and she told me that she doesn't deal in dated gold" Did JA have an operation that wasn't discussed here?

mrpotatoheadd · April 15, 2009 2:07AM

<< However, one time I tried to sell a CAC coin back to a CAC authorized dealer, and she told me that she doesn't deal in dated gold, and referred me to another dealer. >>

Tried to sell back? You originally bought the coin from the dealer you tried to sell it to?

Coxe · April 15, 2009 2:20AM

A delaer will pay no more than he/she has to to get any particular coin. That's why tsome will point to lower bluesheet prices instead of greysheet ones for perfectly well-graded certified coins in hand. CAC is no different. "That means the the grade is right. Here's what the sheet says that grade is worth." The tune changes in marketing it for retail though, naturally. And why not? This is business and it can be brutal and hard to make the money flow sometimes. There are predators among them, but not even good ones will survive in an even trade environment. There has to be a margin of some profit.

BECOKA · April 15, 2009 2:21AM

Many dealers I saw at the Santa Clara show not only did not give a premium for the sticker but were selling at prices as if the sticker did not exist. Is that an upside down market?

DennisH · April 15, 2009 2:28AM

Not if they can get away without doing it.

dorkkarl · April 15, 2009 2:45AM

<< Are dealers paying premiums for CAC stickered coins? >>

of course they are! BLUESHEET!!!

K S

fc · April 15, 2009 2:57AM

<< 

<< No one loves the CAC more than Longacre, and I have had good experiences with getting green beaned on my coins. However, one time I tried to sell a CAC coin back to a CAC authorized dealer, and she told me that she doesn't deal in dated gold, and referred me to another dealer. That is fine, because no dealer should have to buy everything that is offered to them, whether it has the bean or not. The price that I ultimately got for the coin was acceptable, but did not knock my socks off. >>

Sounds like a one way market to me. >>

more likely that was a polite way of saying i buried you in the coin
and i do not want to insult you by my normal buy offer. please move
along and allow someone else to disappoint you with an average
offer.

WTCG · April 15, 2009 4:20AM

Some dealers will pay a premium for stickered coins while many others will claim the CAC sticker is something they do not care about or do not agree with and by default not offer a premium. You just have to find the ones who will pay a premium, and plenty of dealers will.

John Albanese himself will often post bids on CCE for CAC stickered coins. Often times those bids are substantially higher than the next highest bid and John will always honor his posted bids.

Frankcoins · April 15, 2009 4:30AM

When the biggest promoter of CAC coins says she does not charge anything extra for the sticker, and if a coin is premium priced, it's because the coin is extra quality, not because of any sticker, it's hard to imagine that premium prices are paid for such coins simply for having a sticker, because they only pay premium prices for extra quality coins regardless of whether they have a sticker.

tradedollarnut · April 15, 2009 4:46AM

<< 

<< 

<< No one loves the CAC more than Longacre, and I have had good experiences with getting green beaned on my coins. However, one time I tried to sell a CAC coin back to a CAC authorized dealer, and she told me that she doesn't deal in dated gold, and referred me to another dealer. That is fine, because no dealer should have to buy everything that is offered to them, whether it has the bean or not. The price that I ultimately got for the coin was acceptable, but did not knock my socks off. >>

Sounds like a one way market to me. >>

more likely that was a polite way of saying i buried you in the coin
and i do not want to insult you by my normal buy offer. please move
along and allow someone else to disappoint you with an average
offer. >>

You are making an erroneous assumption about where the coin came from in the first place.

Longacre · April 15, 2009 4:48AM

<< 

<< 

<< 

<< No one loves the CAC more than Longacre, and I have had good experiences with getting green beaned on my coins. However, one time I tried to sell a CAC coin back to a CAC authorized dealer, and she told me that she doesn't deal in dated gold, and referred me to another dealer. That is fine, because no dealer should have to buy everything that is offered to them, whether it has the bean or not. The price that I ultimately got for the coin was acceptable, but did not knock my socks off. >>

Sounds like a one way market to me. >>

more likely that was a polite way of saying i buried you in the coin
and i do not want to insult you by my normal buy offer. please move
along and allow someone else to disappoint you with an average
offer. >>

You are making an erroneous assumption about where the coin came from in the first place. >>

You're correct TDN. The coin did not originate from Legend.

dizzyfoxx · April 15, 2009 4:50AM

I have no idea, but I hope not.

DHeath · April 15, 2009 4:54AM

It is impossible to know the degree of influence CAC wields in the current market. CAC's relevance will be easy to measure in the next upturn. JMO

Edited to add - Opinions aren't magic in a down market.

doh · April 15, 2009 4:54AM

<< I have no idea, but I hope not. >>

<< They're just another leech on the numismatic tree. >>

fc · April 15, 2009 4:58AM

<< 

<< 

<< 

<< No one loves the CAC more than Longacre, and I have had good experiences with getting green beaned on my coins. However, one time I tried to sell a CAC coin back to a CAC authorized dealer, and she told me that she doesn't deal in dated gold, and referred me to another dealer. That is fine, because no dealer should have to buy everything that is offered to them, whether it has the bean or not. The price that I ultimately got for the coin was acceptable, but did not knock my socks off. >>

Sounds like a one way market to me. >>

more likely that was a polite way of saying i buried you in the coin
and i do not want to insult you by my normal buy offer. please move
along and allow someone else to disappoint you with an average
offer. >>

You are making an erroneous assumption about where the coin came from in the first place. >>

how in the world did the above posts somehow come to mean the
dealer was legend? I cannot think of any other erroneous assumption that you could possibly think we are making.

i see nothing of the sort in there. Longacre is the only one who even
used the word "she".

291fifth is commenting on the fact a cac dealer did not wish to buy
a cac coin they sold to longacre.

PerryHall · April 15, 2009 5:01AM

If dealers are paying any premiums for CAC stickered coins, it's because the coin is particularly nice and it has nothing to do with any sticker.

mrpotatoheadd · April 15, 2009 5:02AM

<< You're correct TDN. The coin did not originate from Legend. >>

If the coin wan't originally purchased from the dealer you tried to sell it to, was it *really* the case of a CAC dealer refusing to buy back a coin?

"However, one time I tried to sell a CAC coin back to a CAC authorized dealer, and she told me that she doesn't deal in dated gold, and referred me to another dealer."

Frankcoins · April 15, 2009 5:41AM

I have had some email exchanges with someone who no longer posts here but reads the boards accusing me of twisting facts to meet an agenda. The context of this thread has been collectors selling coins back to dealers. While dealers may be offering premiums on CAC coins on teletype/CCE systems, the typical collector cannot
sell to dealers on that venue, and collector-to-dealer sales will virtually all be "sight seen" anyway, where the coin stands on its own merits regardless of add-ons.

nicetoning42107 · April 15, 2009 5:58AM

We can make the arguments back and forth about the coin standing its own merits as to why a premium was brought rather than the sticker's presence alone. More to the point: has there been anyone out there collector or dealer who has paid a premium simply for the sticker regardless of the coin's merits?

"i'd have paid $120 for this MS65 Morgan unstickered, but because there's a sticker i'll go ahead and stretch and pay the $130."

i haven't yet heard of such, though it would be otherwise unknown unless someone comes forward and admits it themselves since we all can't read each other's mind in each buy/sell transaction.

tradedollarnut · April 15, 2009 9:06AM

The coin was not offered back to the original seller, so it's not possible for the original seller to be subtlely stating "I buried you in this coin and I'm not going to make an insulting offer". Those that interpreted it this way were incorrect [although I can see by the original wording how they interpreted it that way].

tradedollarnut · April 15, 2009 9:08AM

Just because one doesn't need insurance doesn't mean the insurance company is a 'leech'. They provide services that others need or they wouldn't be in biz.

It's the same for CAC. Just because you think you know it all or don't deal in coins where there's thousands of dollars difference between high end for the grade or low end doesn't mean the company isn't helping those that do.

dragon · April 15, 2009 9:29AM

<<< It's the same for CAC. Just because you think you know it all or don't deal in coins where there's thousands of dollars difference between high end for the grade or low end doesn't mean the company isn't helping those that do. >>>

I would respectfully submit that if you're dealing (presumably mostly buying) in coins where there's thousands of dollars in price differential within the same grade, then you had better know what you're looking at on your own and how to grade and make grading judgements on your own without the aid of a third party who's making a judgement call on an already certified and graded coin which is also a judgement call to begin with. I say this because I've seen plenty of coins within my area of interest that had a CAC sticker on them where I thought the coin was just very average for the given grade, and worth no premium over the great majority of other coins of that same certified grade.

telephoto1 · April 15, 2009 9:40AM

I don't look at CAC as insurance in the slightest. I look at it as what it is...

Someone looked at the slab market, and said "Dang, there are a lot of slabs out there and we aren't making any money on them unless we actually buy and sell them. That sounds like too much work. I know! Let's make a million dollars by certifying the already supposedly certified grades, and in the process we'll cater to the egos of the collectors who want the finest, creating a big whizzing contest.

But wait! Let's not stop there; let's create a "premium" gold sticker to certify that this coin is a nicer certified certified coin than the pedestrian "green" sticker certified certified coin. And we'll only give out a few of those gold ones to really make the whizzing contest even more spirited. And we'll give the impression that these will bring big premiums when the sheep, er, ah, collectors, go to sell them down the line...even though they won't, because all our sticker will mean is that in our opinion it's accurately graded... of course they won't remember that having an accurate grade is supposedly why they had the thing slabbed in the first place, and they shouldn't NEED a sticker, especially if they know how to grade to begin with...but if you make it, they will come. What a great racket...!"

Coxe · April 15, 2009 9:41AM

TDN, that's all true but there is just a reality that there is a lot of stickered stuff out there now and there is no broad brush to paint them with. JA/CAC has limited control (just a screening network of dealer submitters) over what comes in for consideration. IMO a lot of it should not have been sent in the first place, but I also feel the same that more that 50% of the classic coins that have been slabbed should not have been sent in for certification too. I could easily imagine someone offering a stickered circulated 1928 Peace dollar, something worth roughly the same in every grade. The sticker is completely meaningless to the coin as is probably the slab tag. In contrast, a coin like you bring up we kow would hav ebeen carefully examined by the original graders and JA and that would be appreciated greatly by the end buyer. CAC may not be for everyone .... but is sure is not for every coin issue and grade.

Another reason some dealers are skiddish on paying premiums for CAC coins is that they are awkward in a case full of unstickered coins. Personally, if I was in such a situation, a 3/4" round removable sticker over the football handles it for the casual viewer and it can be revealed to a serious buyer.

BAJJERFAN · April 15, 2009 11:09AM

<< I don't look at CAC as insurance in the slightest. I look at it as what it is...

Someone looked at the slab market, and said "Dang, there are a lot of slabs out there and we aren't making any money on them unless we actually buy and sell them. That sounds like too much work. I know! Let's make a million dollars by certifying the already supposedly certified grades, and in the process we'll cater to the egos of the collectors who want the finest, creating a big whizzing contest.

But wait! Let's not stop there; let's create a "premium" gold sticker to certify that this coin is a nicer certified certified coin than the pedestrian "green" sticker certified certified coin. And we'll only give out a few of those gold ones to really make the whizzing contest even more spirited. And we'll give the impression that these will bring big premiums when the sheep, er, ah, collectors, go to sell them down the line...even though they won't, because all our sticker will mean is that in our opinion it's accurately graded... of course they won't remember that having an accurate grade is supposedly why they had the thing slabbed in the first place, and they shouldn't NEED a sticker, especially if they know how to grade to begin with...but if you make it, they will come. What a great racket...!" >>

He wasn't comparing CAC to insurance. Insurance is a service/option that is more useful to some than it is to others. If you were bedridden and couldn't drive you might not have a need for auto insurance, but it doesn't mean that the person giving you care doesn't need it either. Same for CAC, just cuz it aint for you doesn't mean everyone else sees no benefit. FWIW I'd bet you'd be surprised at how many collectors can't grade all that well even with a slab in hand and a grade on the label.

As for the GOLD sticker, people play the crackout/upgrade game all the time. Smoetimes they win due to a good eye or dumb luck. More often than not they lose.

Thirdly according to JA they don't make ANY money CACing coins at $10 a pop much less the million $$$ that you quoted.

TwoSides2aCoin · April 15, 2009 11:42AM

The answer my friend, is blowing...

telephoto1 · April 16, 2009 7:57AM

<<FWIW I'd bet you'd be surprised at how many collectors can't grade all that well even with a slab in hand and a grade on the label.>>

I wouldn't be surprised in the slightest....they're the TPGs' and CAC's best customers. That's part of my point (in case you missed it). And since they can't grade, they rely on the label and sticker when they buy- rather than actually learning something about grading, or the item... and later when they go to liquidate they get a nice dose of reality. "But wait, my coins are the best, because they have a sticker on them...what gives?"

MikeInFL · April 16, 2009 8:04AM

<< <<FWIW I'd bet you'd be surprised at how many collectors can't grade all that well even with a slab in hand and a grade on the label.>>

I wouldn't be surprised in the slightest....they're the TPGs' and CAC's best customers. That's part of my point (in case you missed it). And since they can't grade, they rely on the label and sticker when they buy- rather than actually learning something about grading, or the item... and later when they go to liquidate they get a nice dose of reality. "But wait, my coins are the best, because they have a sticker on them...what gives?"

>>

And I presume by your responses that you only own raw coins, correct?

telephoto1 · April 16, 2009 8:09AM

<< 

<< <<FWIW I'd bet you'd be surprised at how many collectors can't grade all that well even with a slab in hand and a grade on the label.>>

I wouldn't be surprised in the slightest....they're the TPGs' and CAC's best customers. That's part of my point (in case you missed it). And since they can't grade, they rely on the label and sticker when they buy- rather than actually learning something about grading, or the item... and later when they go to liquidate they get a nice dose of reality. "But wait, my coins are the best, because they have a sticker on them...what gives?"

>>

And I presume by your responses that you only own raw coins, correct? >>

No, by my responses you should infer that I buy the coin based on its own merits, and not the holder it's in.

CalGold · April 16, 2009 9:30AM

<< No, by my responses you should infer that I buy the coin based on its own merits, and not the holder it's in >>

More precisely, you buy the coin based not on its own merits, but rather on what you perceive those merits to be. Maybe you are as skilled at grading as JA and the boys in the PCGS grading room, or maybe not. Most collectors are not and some actually recognize that fact

and would like a second opinion from someone with known grading skills before they plunk down their hard earned cash. That having been said, I am not certain that CAC stickers generate a premium per se so much as they may help the seller close a deal on a coin that the buyer liked and thought was (a) correcly graded, (b) correctly priced, and (c) not doctored.

CG

tradedollarnut · April 16, 2009 9:38AM

<< 

<< 

<< <<FWIW I'd bet you'd be surprised at how many collectors can't grade all that well even with a slab in hand and a grade on the label.>>

I wouldn't be surprised in the slightest....they're the TPGs' and CAC's best customers. That's part of my point (in case you missed it). And since they can't grade, they rely on the label and sticker when they buy- rather than actually learning something about grading, or the item... and later when they go to liquidate they get a nice dose of reality. "But wait, my coins are the best, because they have a sticker on them...what gives?"

>>

And I presume by your responses that you only own raw coins, correct? >>

No, by my responses you should infer that I buy the coin based on its own merits, and not the holder it's in. >>

I won the PCGS grading contest the first year and came in second the next. I have a good eye when it comes to grading and what's nice for the grade - but I cannot detect much of what the coin doctors can do these days. Neither can you.

From my experience of 40 years collecting coins, it seems to me the ones who think they know enough to do everything on their own are most likely to be the ones who don't.

mrearlygold · April 16, 2009 9:47AM

<< 

<< 

<< 

<< <<FWIW I'd bet you'd be surprised at how many collectors can't grade all that well even with a slab in hand and a grade on the label.>>
From my experience of 40 years collecting coins, it seems to me the ones who think they know enough to do everything on their own are most likely to be the ones who don't. >>

Great post

CoinJunkie · April 16, 2009 10:05AM

<< I won the PCGS grading contest the first year and came in second the next. I have a good eye when it comes to grading and what's nice for the grade - but I cannot detect much of what the coin doctors can do these days. Neither can you. >>

Right, and neither can PCGS or CAC 100% of the time. It all comes down to the specifics of
their guarantees when they get it wrong.

Fletcher · April 16, 2009 11:04AM

I have purchased and sold approximately 50 CAC stickered coins thus far, ranging from $1k to $65k, and have come to the conclusion that dealers are absolutely not paying more for a CAC stickered coin ... even dealers who are big CAC submitters. With that said, I, as a buyer, am more likely to purchase a coin online based on a picture if the coin is CAC stickered and will also pay a little bit more for it. However, I am also generally willing to pay a premium for a coin on CRO's or Legend's site even if I have not seen the coin in hand. Conversely, at a show where I can see the coin in hand, a CAC sticker or a favored dealer has little relevance to how much I will pay for a coin. And, in my limited experience, only two dealers have given me consistently strong prices when I am selling ... Brandon Kelley and the McIntosh father and son duo.

robkool · April 16, 2009 12:38PM

I'll have to agree...
John McIntosh is the BEST in terms of selling and trading... CAC, or not.

pennyannie · April 16, 2009 2:15PM

None are 100 percent correct. I have seen some turds with the green bean. I have even read where CAC has admitted that some fell thru the cracks and got the bean. Most say the top 2 TPG's get it right 90 plus percent of the time. So CAC is looking for the 10 or less percent and still missing it by their own admission of those that fell thru the crack. NGC and PCGS has been doing this for decades and have used 100's or 1000's of different graders and done millions of coins. CAC uses a handful of graders and mistakes happen. The failure rate of CAC is probbly higher given the numbers they have seen compared to the millions of the top 2.

I vote leech myself but then again the difference in top end for the grade verse bottom end of grade for the coins i collect is more like dollars than thousands.

CAC does not make money at 10 bucks a pop? LOL

Maybe so, my accountant says i do not make any money either.

dorkkarl · April 16, 2009 10:50PM

<< Just because one doesn't need insurance doesn't mean the insurance company is a 'leech'. They provide services that others need or they wouldn't be in biz. It's the same for CAC. >>

CAC is the same as insurance? what kind of nonsense is that??? sounds like something jabberfan would post

K S

BAJJERFAN · April 16, 2009 11:25PM

<< 

<< Just because one doesn't need insurance doesn't mean the insurance company is a 'leech'. They provide services that others need or they wouldn't be in biz. It's the same for CAC. >>

CAC is the same as insurance? what kind of nonsense is that??? sounds like something jabberfan would post

K S >>

Wifey slip a dumbkoff pill in your oatmeal this morning Dorky? He is saying that both CAC and insurance are services that some need or want and others don't. He never said that one is the same as the other. Those who prefer CAC likely do it more for the assurance than any perceived insurance. A maintenance contact on a new Sears clothes washer would be a good example of a service that some want or need and others don't.

BAJJERFAN · April 16, 2009 11:26PM

<< CAC does not make money at 10 bucks a pop? LOL

Maybe so, my accountant says i do not make any money either.

>>

And you know for a fact that they aren't losing money?

BAJJERFAN · April 16, 2009 11:29PM

<< <<FWIW I'd bet you'd be surprised at how many collectors can't grade all that well even with a slab in hand and a grade on the label.>>

I wouldn't be surprised in the slightest....they're the TPGs' and CAC's best customers. That's part of my point (in case you missed it). And since they can't grade, they rely on the label and sticker when they buy- rather than actually learning something about grading, or the item... and later when they go to liquidate they get a nice dose of reality. "But wait, my coins are the best, because they have a sticker on them...what gives?"

>>

By dose of reality you are saying that everyone who ever bought a CACd or slabbed coin sight unseen has lost money when they went to sell it? More idle prattle from the peanut gallery.

tradedollarnut · April 16, 2009 11:53PM

Most say the top 2 TPG's get it right 90 plus percent of the time. So CAC is looking for the 10 or less percent and still missing it by their own admission of those that fell thru the crack. NGC and PCGS has been doing this for decades and have used 100's or 1000's of different graders and done millions of coins. CAC uses a handful of graders and mistakes happen. The failure rate of CAC is probbly higher given the numbers they have seen compared to the millions of the top 2.

Your logic escapes me. If the top 2 TPG's have graded millions of coins and have an error rate of 10 percent, that means there's hundreds of thousands of errors - correct? And how do you possibly conclude that the error rate of CAC is higher? Off a few pictures that you've seen on the internet?

MikeInFL · April 17, 2009 12:20AM

<< 

<< 

<< <<FWIW I'd bet you'd be surprised at how many collectors can't grade all that well even with a slab in hand and a grade on the label.>>

I wouldn't be surprised in the slightest....they're the TPGs' and CAC's best customers. That's part of my point (in case you missed it). And since they can't grade, they rely on the label and sticker when they buy- rather than actually learning something about grading, or the item... and later when they go to liquidate they get a nice dose of reality. "But wait, my coins are the best, because they have a sticker on them...what gives?"

>>

And I presume by your responses that you only own raw coins, correct? >>

No, by my responses you should infer that I buy the coin based on its own merits, and not the holder it's in. >>

So, it's do as I say, not as I do then.

I've been collecting coins on and off for 30 years, and I find value in the CAC -- and it has nothing to do with any premium associated with selling the coin, but rather because I realize my knowledge isn't perfect and I value the opinions of others with more experience than I. I [sic] suppose that doesn't apply to you, but please don't presume the motivations/skill level of others....Mike

tradedollarnut · April 17, 2009 12:21AM

If someone really cared about the answer - all they'd have to do is check Heritage auction archives to see that in general CAC'd coins are indeed selling for a premium.

fc · April 17, 2009 12:33AM

<< If someone really cared about the answer - all they'd have to do is check Heritage auction archives to see that in general CAC'd coins are indeed selling for a premium. >>

but are not the coins more then likely premium to have begun with and would
have gotten a higher price compared to their peers even if CAC did not exist?

Correlation does not imply causation

edited to add: frankly i like CAC because it is rocking the boat of coin grading. anything
that brings up the discussion of grade inflation and bad coins getting into holders is A-OK
with me.

Are dealers paying premiums for CAC stickered coins?

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