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Baltimore show report. ( Updated with some new info )
holeinone1972
Posts: 5,368 ✭✭✭
Well 14 hours and 500 miles later I am back from my first Baltimore show. It was a long drive, cold and rainy. I had to park several blocks away from the convention center so I did not appreciate the weather. I got down to Baltimore right around noon. I had planned on getting a nice seafood lunch, but every restaraunt i went to was crawling with people. (Note to self: next time do not arrive at lunch time expecting lunch) 
So I ate a rotten buffet at the Days Inn Hotel. O well, it was better than a bourse dog, but not much better.
Got into the show at 2 and ran (literally) to meet Dick Osburn, I have been waiting for years to see his coins. I did find a nice 1834 Capped Bust Half dime in an old Anacs ms61 holder. Great toning, I snapped it up. There was not to much else that caught my attention there. Don't get me wrong lost of great coins, I was on the prowl for sweet toners.
I then went off J.H. Cline's table of Standing Liberty Quarters. Many nice coins, found a very nice 1917 S Type 2 AU58 Full Head in an NGC slab. I almost fellover when I heard the price. I was expecting around $3-$400 I heard multiples of that.
I went back to his table many times throughout the show. I did end up with the coin 5 minutes before the show closed for the day. It has some nice rainbow toning around the bottom of the coin.
I then went to the Coin Rarities booth, where our Colonial Coin Union was waiting for me. They had an even sweeter 1835 Capped bust half dime that was just screaming with colors. But I just bought the other from Dick Osburn. I considered getting it also, but the price was over $400 more, so I eventually passed. Beauty of a coin though.
I then found myself to an unknown by me. Dr. Eugene Bruder's table. I fell in love with a 1859-O Seated Liberty Dime with killer rainbow target toning in an old Anacs ms 61 slab. The price matched the toning and then some. Great guy, we talked for quite awhile, and after some negotiating we struck a deal. he had a few other great coins, a few raw, and I just don't trust myself with raw coins yet so I passed. He had a fantastic 1818 Large Cent ms63 I think, fantastic color to it. I was way short of funds at this point, so I could not get it. But let me tell you if I had the funds it would be here with me now.
O yeah, I forgot on my way down I stopped and some junky antique mall, and picked up a 1820 Capped Bust Dime, I think it has a real shot at PO01???? I am not sure why I bought it, but maybe some lowball collector would like it?
Pictures to come tomorrow evening, after I recover, and get home from work. Overall great time, but I was shocked at how few very nice toners besides Morgans, yuck, there were there. There was a very nice Capped Bust dime toner at another table, but the price was 3-4 times sheet, and no negotiating was tolerated at all, so there it stayed.
Just like Forrest Gump said, " And that's all I have to say about that!"
Rob
So I ate a rotten buffet at the Days Inn Hotel. O well, it was better than a bourse dog, but not much better.Got into the show at 2 and ran (literally) to meet Dick Osburn, I have been waiting for years to see his coins. I did find a nice 1834 Capped Bust Half dime in an old Anacs ms61 holder. Great toning, I snapped it up. There was not to much else that caught my attention there. Don't get me wrong lost of great coins, I was on the prowl for sweet toners.
I then went off J.H. Cline's table of Standing Liberty Quarters. Many nice coins, found a very nice 1917 S Type 2 AU58 Full Head in an NGC slab. I almost fellover when I heard the price. I was expecting around $3-$400 I heard multiples of that.
I went back to his table many times throughout the show. I did end up with the coin 5 minutes before the show closed for the day. It has some nice rainbow toning around the bottom of the coin.I then went to the Coin Rarities booth, where our Colonial Coin Union was waiting for me. They had an even sweeter 1835 Capped bust half dime that was just screaming with colors. But I just bought the other from Dick Osburn. I considered getting it also, but the price was over $400 more, so I eventually passed. Beauty of a coin though.
I then found myself to an unknown by me. Dr. Eugene Bruder's table. I fell in love with a 1859-O Seated Liberty Dime with killer rainbow target toning in an old Anacs ms 61 slab. The price matched the toning and then some. Great guy, we talked for quite awhile, and after some negotiating we struck a deal. he had a few other great coins, a few raw, and I just don't trust myself with raw coins yet so I passed. He had a fantastic 1818 Large Cent ms63 I think, fantastic color to it. I was way short of funds at this point, so I could not get it. But let me tell you if I had the funds it would be here with me now.
O yeah, I forgot on my way down I stopped and some junky antique mall, and picked up a 1820 Capped Bust Dime, I think it has a real shot at PO01???? I am not sure why I bought it, but maybe some lowball collector would like it?
Pictures to come tomorrow evening, after I recover, and get home from work. Overall great time, but I was shocked at how few very nice toners besides Morgans, yuck, there were there. There was a very nice Capped Bust dime toner at another table, but the price was 3-4 times sheet, and no negotiating was tolerated at all, so there it stayed.
Just like Forrest Gump said, " And that's all I have to say about that!"
Rob
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Comments
It was raining all day back here at home, so you might as well have gone, you missed nothing!
Mar
Camelot
Great report - thanks.
Check out my current listings: https://ebay.com/sch/khunt/m.html?_ipg=200&_sop=12&_rdc=1
Yup, I saw that sweet toned capped but half dime from CRO at the Portland ANA. AU right? It's very small but wild! I think it's on their site for $975.
So did you get a deal on the SLQ?, or just decided who cares!?
<< <i> I then went to the Coin Rarities booth, where our Colonial Coin Union was waiting for me. They had an even sweeter 1835 Capped bust half dime that was just screaming with colors. But I just bought the other from Dick Osburn. I considered getting it also, but the price was over $400 more, so I eventually passed. Beauty of a coin though.
Rob >>
<< <i>Thanks for the info!
Yup, I saw that sweet toned capped but half dime from CRO at the Portland ANA. AU right? It's very small but wild! I think it's on their site for $975.
So did you get a deal on the SLQ?, or just decided who cares!?
Let's say this about the SLQ. I paid a much higher premium than I thought I did when I gave the cash. I put a little too much faith in Mr. Cline I think. It is the only deal have any remorse in. I think the recommandation's i got here like he wrote the book on SLQ's went to my head a little. Some info he gave me I do not think was very correct, or every other reference I can find is wrong.
On the other hand the other 2 coins I bought i am thrilled with. I just think Mr. Cline may be a little proud of his coins. For what I paid I should have received an autographed copy of his SLQ book.
Dick Osburn, was what I had hoped he would be. Great reputation, and truly a pleassure to deal with.
Pictures tonight I hope. I am tired and it is A L R E A D Y time for work.
<< <i>Sounds like you had a great time!!
<< <i> I then went to the Coin Rarities booth, where our Colonial Coin Union was waiting for me. They had an even sweeter 1835 Capped bust half dime that was just screaming with colors. But I just bought the other from Dick Osburn. I considered getting it also, but the price was over $400 more, so I eventually passed. Beauty of a coin though.
Rob >>
Lee, that picture is not even close to what that beauty looks like in hand. I really had a hard time not buying it. But then my type set would have morphed into a Capped Bust half dime set, and my budget is already destroyed.
Beauty of a half dime!!
C'mon. Everyone has buyers remorse about something sometime but you went back 5 times.
Ray
<< <i>You went back to Clines table 5 times during the show because of this gorgeous Standing Quarter, and once you bought it you don't like it, and Cline misrepresented it to you?
C'mon. Everyone has buyers remorse about something sometime but you went back 5 times.
Ray >>
A coin can be beautiful and just grab at a person sometimes... one might desire to own yet not be able to choke down the asking price... but they are still drawn... and a dealer might notice
From the sounds of the OP's posts... it seems that he was led to believe certain things about this coin that he accepted on face value... because, after all, Mr. Cline is the "reputed expert" on SLQ's... only to later discover that he may have been misled...
All I can say about "ex-perts" is this... an ex-pert is someone who used to be pertinant...just MHO...
Glad the OP had a good show, yet sorry you had to be a part of finding out that another Numismatic "king" wears no clothes...
Oh, Rich was the next table over from Dick Osburn...
42/92
<< <i>Let's say this about the SLQ. I paid a much higher premium than I thought I did when I gave the cash. I put a little too much faith in Mr. Cline I think. It is the only deal have any remorse in. I think the recommandation's i got here like he wrote the book on SLQ's went to my head a little. Some info he gave me I do not think was very correct, or every other reference I can find is wrong.
<< <i>
When I collected SLQs it was easy to wind up at Cline's table and ogle his coins. It was much harder to purchase them. With a little effort it was possble to find the coins for much less money. However, I did talk myself into an Anacs AU50 1916 which Cline assured me was an AU 50 even though it looked like a VF 35 to me (I know, rusted dies blah blah). It still looks like a 35 to me. The good news is that for what I paid for it, it doesn't matter if it is only a VF. I doubt that any other coins I would have purchased from him would be in the black.
If I find out that something is "multiples" of what I was either expecting or am comfortable in paying, then I figure there must be something that I do not know that I have to go learn first.
It usually works for me.
He told me it was the other way around. Ignorance is no excuse but I was going on a reccomandation that he would be the kind of person that I would want to buy from. While his coins are beatiful, I know I overpaid, but I overpaid based on the knowledge he gave me. If I was prepared (again my fault) I would have walked away from the deal. No big deal as I plan on having the coin for a long time, but I was just a little taken back that this expert gave me incorrect information about which was the more rare and more desirable of the 2 coins.
I guess my rant about this particular coin is maybe just a little warning about Mr. Cline's approach. He has great coins at high prices and does not refrain from telling you what is best for him.
Rob
B T W I had a great time.
avoid his table. There is always an aura of a sidewalk con
around him. However, this is just my personal opinion.
Camelot
But if he is selling ( or buying) at the range of prices he did then, I would suggest you look around.
Personally, I found him quite enlightening, and he always has a great selection. But...
I'm not an expert, but I believe the 17-s Type II is significantly tougher than the Type I, especially in full head. Despite this, pricing is similar for the two varieties (in FH), presumably because of the popularity of the Type I design.
I am sure he has many nice coins. I am sure he gets them for a good price and sells them for even better prices (for him).
Just looking at his photos in the ads, and prices in the ads, I have never had a desire to buy anything from him. I could only imagine doing that as a "pedigree" of sorts (and, personally, I don't care much for pedigrees), or if there was an example I HAD to have (for the registry or toning) that didn't/couldn't exist anywhere else.
Since I don't play the registry that way, and don't have unlimited funds to pay screaming prices for toners, neither would happen.
Rob, thanks for the show report walk through. I can't imagine a 14 hour trip for it
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
This is a 1917-S AU58 with full head.
According to the book concerning 1917-S type 1 and 2 Quarters....
1.
A) The type 1 have 5% struck with full heads.
2.
A) The type 1 has an estimated 20% survival rate in the grade of AU
3.
A) The type 1 Has a price ranking of 21
(The lower the ranking, the higher the price... the 1916 is ranked 5)
Cline states in his book the 1917-S has one of the softest strikes of all 1917 Quarters, both type 1 and type 2. Your coin may have a sharp strike. Does it?
My guess is that you probably were given good information by Cline.
Ray
<< <i>I have the Cline book on Standing Quarters opened up.
This is a 1917-S AU58 with full head.
According to the book concerning 1917-S type 1 and 2 Quarters....
1.
A) The type 1 have 5% struck with full heads.
2.
A) The type 1 has an estimated 20% survival rate in the grade of AU
3.
A) The type 1 Has a price ranking of 21
(The lower the ranking, the higher the price... the 1916 is ranked 5)
Cline states in his book the 1917-S has one of the softest strikes of all 1917 Quarters, both type 1 and type 2. Your coin may have a sharp strike. Does it?
My guess is that you probably were given good information by Cline.
Ray >>
Ray, Thanks for the good info. I was going by PCGS guidelines, and closed auctions of similar products. I guess I expect that PCGS would have a higher value in their price guide if all of what is in his book is correct? Never the less, it is a nice coin, but I must say I feel a little misled. It may not be the case. I know one thing I have myself to blame for not be prepared or knowing the answer before I purchased. I do believe that you are supposed to buy the book first, but since I am doing a type set, I would go broke buying every book.
I hope to have pictures up tonight of my new purchases.
Thanks for everyone's input.
<< <i>If I find out that something is "multiples" of what I was either expecting or am comfortable in paying, then I figure there must be something that I do not know that I have to go learn first. >>
Have you considered that maybe it's just grossly overpriced?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>
<< <i>If I find out that something is "multiples" of what I was either expecting or am comfortable in paying, then I figure there must be something that I do not know that I have to go learn first. >>
Have you considered that maybe it's just grossly overpriced? >>
I could live with grossly overpriced as long as I am not lead in the direction that it is incredibly rare, or mare rare than other options.
All three of the coins I bought were overpriced, but I knew that because of color. No one else told me it was more because it was rare. I guess I was just bummed that the expert gave me info that I am not real certain of.
Overpriced is ok, if I pay based on my criteria, not faulty criteria. Like I said it is my fault, because I did not know or do the research.
No biggie it is still a great coin.
<< <i>
<< <i>If I find out that something is "multiples" of what I was either expecting or am comfortable in paying, then I figure there must be something that I do not know that I have to go learn first. >>
Have you considered that maybe it's just grossly overpriced? >>
Yes, that's always a possibility.
The 17-S Ty 2 is "rare" in high MS grades with a FH. Its also priced more
than the Ty 1 in grades MS 63 and higher.
Jay Cline should have realized this - its his business - and his series of
books [ # 4 now ] indicates this. He does have some great SLQ's but
he's very much out of the loop now with the economic downturn. He
usually doesn't budge on his ask prices and I hope you wern't burned too
badly on the 17-S Ty 2 in 58. I would imagine a nice one in FH would have
run close to $325 - max - but knowing you also thought that too, and still paid
multiples of that - OMG !!! - don't tell me you paid over a Grand - I'll be ill.
Looking forward to the images.
~~~~~~~~~~~~
Coin collecting is not a hobby, it's an obsession !
New Barber Purchases
From Dick Osburn
from Dr. Eugene Bruder.
I think I will get someone soon to photograph my collection, since these are gonna stay in the safety deposit box, I sure would like to enjoy them photographically at least.
I have taken many many pictures of this and none am I happy with, but this one is not too terrible.
The bottom 1/4 of the coin has a nice rainbow tone to it, I just cannot seem to capture it very well.
<< <i> He
usually doesn't budge on his ask prices and I hope you wern't burned too
badly on the 17-S Ty 2 in 58. I would imagine a nice one in FH would have
run close to $325 - max - but knowing you also thought that too, and still paid
multiples of that - OMG !!! - don't tell me you paid over a Grand - I'll be ill.
Looking forward to the images. >>
I paid way over what it is worth, by about double. I paid $685 Maybe $400 - $450 is real value but hey another lesson learned.
<< <i> Can't wait to see pictures, and don't forget the 1820 dime!
Mar >>
What do you think any shot at P0O1 ?
Just a guess....Cline would not look for a quick rip on a coin of that value, but to gain a long term customer. Rethink it.
<< <i>I paid way over what it is worth, by about double. I paid $685 Maybe $400 - $450 is real value but hey another lesson learned. >>
Wow....I have one with less head detail, but a stronger shield and date, and comparable obv toning, that I was asking $125 for....guess I learned something too! But I have gotten coin show and auction fever in the past, and overpaid for other coins too, just chalk it up to a learning experience.
The "book" was my slq bible for a very long time, since around 1987. It's a very good book, but I have had similar experiences in the last few years with the author. I was there today and all day yesterday and that table was not even on my agenda.
Sounds like you had a good time regardless. Good for you.
Now what can I buy with my $685.00 <evil laugh>
Oops, now you will have sellers remorse, instead of buyers remorse.
The more I studied the coin the less I liked it. No seller's remorse here. But I was glad that the Cline's were super about the situation.
5718 1917-S Type 2..........150.........190.....225.......325........550.........1,250.........2,600.........-
5719 1917-S Type 2 FH.......-...........220.....260.......900.....1,625.........4,250.......11,500....27,000
Holeinone, I think you are right, unless you want a FH, the premium is not reported by PCGS for AU. Something does not make sense here.
Why is there no premium for FH's in AU ?
Likely there are few FH's made in AU or demand falls off for FH's in AU. I don't know which (or both). On the other hand maybe Jaime Hernandez has not gotten any feedback for $650 AU58FH's and has not modified his prices to the reality.
If you bought the coin, you could tell Jaime about the purchase and Wholla! the price for MS-60FH (essentially the same as AU-58FH) would be $650 instead of $260.