When does cherry-picking turn dishonest?

GFourDriver · March 17, 2009 11:21PM

Suppose you are in your local B&M looking at some old Whitman Lincoln albums and you notice that the 1936 slot has a BU Satin finish proof. You know the dealer and he has always been fair in his pricing with you but is not into copper and would never know that the coin is a proof. Do you pay the $28 for the album and walk out? Is it ethical to take advantage of him/her? What if one of the cents is an early matte proof worth about $900? Is it a dilemma for you or a no brainer?

Weiss · March 17, 2009 11:25PM

When a dealer does it to you, apparently.

RyGuy · March 17, 2009 11:28PM

I see no problem in paying the $28 and leaving.

Dealing in coins is their business, they should have enough knowledge to effectively flip through an album and know what he/she may have on their hands.

Plus, if he's selling it for $28, you have to wonder what was paid for it to begin with. Either way, they're making a profit from it.

Ryan

Connecticoin · March 17, 2009 11:29PM

Post pics of the 1936 Satin Proof.

1Mike1 · March 17, 2009 11:34PM

I would say Hey, I'll give you $900 for that 36 even though you want to sell it for $28...

OKbustchaser · March 17, 2009 11:43PM

<< When does cherry-picking turn dishonest? >>

At exactly the same point where you would call the dealer dishonest if the tables were turned. Ethics has absolutely nothing to do with on which side of the counter you are standing.

tjkillian · March 18, 2009 12:00AM

<< 

<< When does cherry-picking turn dishonest? >>

At exactly the same point where you would call the dealer dishonest if the tables were turned. Ethics has absolutely nothing to do with on which side of the counter you are standing. >>

I disagree. A person who claims to be a professional in a occupation, they should know what they are doing. A collector is assumed to be a novice and a dealer is assumed to be a professional. You can tell the dealer she might have overlooked a satin proof Lincoln cent, but it would not be dishonest to keep quiet.

On the other hand, if a dealer were buying the set from a collector, et al., she should pay a fair price if she sees that the cent is a valuable satin proof. Everyone makes mistakes, so if the dealer honestly did not see the proof, and paid less because of her failure to see the proof, that would still be honest.

PerryHall · March 18, 2009 12:06AM

<< I see no problem in paying the $28 and leaving.

Dealing in coins is their business, they should have enough knowledge to effectively flip through an album and know what he/she may have on their hands.

Plus, if he's selling it for $28, you have to wonder what was paid for it to begin with. Either way, they're making a profit from it.

Ryan >>

Agree. If he's selling it for $28, he probably paid $10 or less for it. If you give him $900, what are the chances he will share this windfall with the person he originally bought the coin from?

LanLord · March 18, 2009 12:15AM

<< 

<< When does cherry-picking turn dishonest? >>

At exactly the same point where you would call the dealer dishonest if the tables were turned. Ethics has absolutely nothing to do with on which side of the counter you are standing. >>

While I agree with this statement, I think it will be an unpopular one. If you know something someone else doesn't why is it fair to profit from their lack of knowledge when it isn't fair for them to profit from another persons lack of knowledge. It could be said that if they should know better because they are in the business, the person who currently owns it should know better because they currently own it!! In all cases, if you feel you're getting a steal because of lack of knowledge on the other person's part, you are getting a STEAL!

mrpotatoheadd · March 18, 2009 12:22AM

<< A collector is assumed to be a novice... >>

I don't know about that- there are lots of collectors who are more informed on their collecting specialty than most dealers are.

<< On the other hand, if a dealer were buying the set from a collector, et al., she should pay a fair price if she sees that the cent is a valuable satin proof. >>

What about the situation where the collector offers the set for sale at a price which would indicate that he had overlooked the proof, but in addition, the collector has been a regular customer of the dealer, and has often bragged about how experienced he is and how many of the coins in the set have been cherrypicked from other dealers?

1Mike1 · March 18, 2009 12:27AM

Maybe you should tell us where we can get a $900 proof for $28 and see which one of us beats you to the door.

GFourDriver · March 18, 2009 12:32AM

<<<Maybe you should tell us where we can get a $900 proof for $28 and see which one of us beats you to the door. >>>

Hypothetical situation of course.....

OKbustchaser · March 18, 2009 12:33AM

<< 

<< 

<< When does cherry-picking turn dishonest? >>

At exactly the same point where you would call the dealer dishonest if the tables were turned. Ethics has absolutely nothing to do with on which side of the counter you are standing. >>

While I agree with this statement, I think it will be an unpopular one. If you know something someone else doesn't why is it fair to profit from their lack of knowledge when it isn't fair for them to profit from another persons lack of knowledge. It could be said that if they should know better because they are in the business, the person who currently owns it should know better because they currently own it!! In all cases, if you feel you're getting a steal because of lack of knowledge on the other person's part, you are getting a STEAL! >>

Of course it will be an unpopular one. There are way too many people here whose personal ethics are much weaker than the ethical standard to which they want to hold dealers.

By the way, I have absolutely nothing against cherrypicking. I merely believe that it goes both ways. Your coin is YOUR coin. It is up to you to determine its value to you prior to trying to sell it. If you don't do so and you receive less than you might have then THAT IS YOUR FAULT--not the buyer's...regardless of who is buying and who is selling.

ProofArtworkonCircs · March 18, 2009 12:58AM

I once told a dealer that he had a silver proof mixed in with his business strilke quarters. He thanked me and moved it and RAISED the price. It had already picked up enough scratches, so that I doubt anybody would buy it as a proof. I was looking for businees strike B's only, so I didn't want it. I wonder if he ever sold it.

1Mike1 · March 18, 2009 1:12AM

<< <<<Maybe you should tell us where we can get a $900 proof for $28 and see which one of us beats you to the door. >>>

Hypothetical situation of course.....

>>

kranky · March 18, 2009 1:25AM

In the example of the Whitman folders, I don't see any problem with paying the $28 and keeping quiet about what I think. I might think it's a proof but maybe it's not. It might have reverse or rim damage I can't see when it's in the folder. From my observations on both sides of the table, when someone says the equivalent of "I'm asking $X for <item>" you can take it or leave it without feeling obligated to point out what it might or might not be. The Whitman folder priced at $28 falls into that category.

I don't see it as taking advantage of someone. Sellers price their items, buyers can pass or play.

Where I would say something is when a coin is labeled wrong. That's clearly a mistake. Some years back I ran across a dealer with BU Jeffersons in a 3-ring binder, and some of the 2x2s were labeled 1959, priced at 30c each. Actually they were all 1939, not 1959. There was no intent to sell BU 1939 Jeffs for 30 cents each... so to me, buying those would have been taking advantage.

It's really splitting hairs, I know. Everyone has to decide where the line is for them.

NitroCruiser · March 18, 2009 3:08AM

Buying the album, taking out the 36 BU Satin, replacing it with a junk 36 and selling it back to the B&W might be unethical....especially if he/she low balls the price!!!!

dorkkarl · March 18, 2009 3:32AM

<< When does cherry-picking turn dishonest? >>

never

K S

SeaEagleCoins · March 18, 2009 3:40AM

As we all know, it is totally acceptable for a collector to cherrypick a dealer... it is also OK to rip a newb if your possess the knowledge and they don't... BUT we also know that all dealers are despicable and that they always try to get a rip... and in turn... they are all dishonest...

oh yeah... except for the "Forum Approved" dealers... they only sell coins as a public service... seek no profit and hence never do anything that would even approach unethical...

folks...I've been in a bad mood all day and need to do whatever I can to make it through... excuse the corny cynicism please...

zeebob · March 18, 2009 3:50AM

It's dishonest when you are the acknowledged expert in the transaction.

If a person comes to you who is has limited knowledge and asks you to buy their coins, you are morally obligated to treat them honestly.

If a person comes and asks for an appraisal, same thing. Of course you don't have to give an appraisal free, but you don't hid the cost by cherrypicking.

If you are a dealer and another dealer or collector wants to sell you coins and they have already done research to their satisfaction and have set prices then they are acting as a peer. Cherrypicking is fine.

If you are a collector and wander into a dealers shop or up to a dealers table, then again, you are acting as a peer. Cherrypicking is fine.

I enjoy working with a particular dealer (TypeCoin on Ebay). He always cherry picks my stuff when I sell to him, but he shows me and tells me what he's doing. He also allows me to cherry pick his inventory for the best eye appeal. In fact he encourages it. For that, I spend the bulk of my money with that dealer and I always go to him first for coins that I think I want to buy.

Artist · March 18, 2009 3:52AM

This debate has been bantered about for as long as I have been a member here...

General consensus, is that there is nothing inequitable about paying a coin dealer his asking price for a coin, regardless of what you happen to know about it that he may not.

As for the shoe being on the other foot, it is generally in a dealer's best interest to offer a fair price for a coin; alternately reliance on the ignorance of others is not a component of a long term sustainable business model.

erroid · March 18, 2009 4:07AM

Well said Artist.

CaptHenway · March 18, 2009 4:07AM

It is neither illegal or unethical to buy an underpriced coin at the marked price.

That said, how well do you sleep at night, and would buying the coin for way too little affect how well you sleep at night?

Last week at our favorite neighborhood Mexican restaurant, I had the quesadilla plate, $11.95, but when the bill came the waitress only charged me for a single quesadilla, $2.95. I called her over and pointed out the error. Sure its only $9, not thousands as in the case of the dime, but the principle is the same.

Remember the (probably apocryphal) story about Winston Churchhill. Supposedly he asked some society lady "Would you sleep with me for a thousand pounds?" She thought a moment, and said "Yes." He then asked 'Would you sleep with me for a pound?" She became highly indignant, and asked "What kind of a woman do you think I am!?" He replied "We've already determined that. Now we're negotiating the price."

A good rule to follow in ethical dilemnas is "Do unto others as you would have others do unto you."

End of sermon.
TD

Outhaul · March 18, 2009 4:19AM

<< When does cherry-picking turn dishonest? >>

When I'M the one who is cherry-picked.

jfoot13 · March 18, 2009 4:32AM

Well the thing to do would be buy the lot, have the proof slabbed and offer it back to the dealer... if he offers you a fair price sell it to him for the slabbing fees... if he tries to rip you sell it to him anyways and let him rip himself and you keep the money... let him make his own Karma

sanitarium1inmate · March 18, 2009 5:10AM

One must first think of themselves and then think of others. Think about this situation for a moment, You would be willing to let a small fortune and a YOU SUCK slip away because you want someone else to buy this albumn from the dealer if you say nothing or let the dealer make a fortune after only buying it for pennies anyway. I would snatch it up before anyone had a chance to even see the darn thing. You work hard to get the knowledge you have and you desearve the fruits of your labor.

GoldenEyeNumismatics · March 18, 2009 5:22AM

When someone willingly sets their own price, anything is fair.

Russ · March 18, 2009 5:24AM

Fundamentally, I agree with those who say pay the 28 bucks and grab the deal. In reality, though, I might have a tough time doing so depending on the dealer. If it were my local guy a couple blocks away, I'd tell him. He's as honest as they come and has always done me - and ALL of his customers - right. On the other hand, there's a slimeball dealer down the road a piece that I'd hose without guilt.

Russ, NCNE

DoubleEagle59 · March 18, 2009 5:27AM

I have a favorite dealer of mine here in Ontario Canada, that I quite often purchase a coin that I know is undergraded. I make a few bucks on him (sometimes a bit more) and that's fine with me. I think of that as fair business.

But once he had a 1858 dime that he had priced at $80 and it was actually worth about $500 (because he missed that it was a rare variety) and I told him so.

He was very appreciative and I reasoned that he has dealt with me in the past with friendship and professionalism and I didn't want to 'rip' him off for $420.

mrpotatoheadd · March 18, 2009 5:53AM

<< Think about this situation for a moment, You would be willing to let a small fortune and a YOU SUCK slip away because you want someone else to buy this albumn from the dealer if you say nothing or let the dealer make a fortune after only buying it for pennies anyway. >>

I found an unmarked (although plainly obvious) variety while going through a dealer's stuff at a show one time. I showed it to him and asked him what he wanted for it, as it was definitely worth more than the marked price. He let me buy it priced as marked because he said it could have easily sold to someone else who picked it out without saying anything and it didn't seem to be fair to charge me extra for letting him know about it.

This kind of refutes the notion that dealers always try to squeeze the last penny out of a deal, I'd think.

Billet7 · March 18, 2009 5:53AM

I guess it is up to each collector. I would probably tell him if he agreed to split the profit with me (before I told him what coin it was of course.) The fact is, that he bought that coin from someone, and that someone didn't know that it was valuable either. So isn't it actually the dealer that is taking advantage if he finds out that it is valuable? How is that different from you doing the same thing? Someone will find out that it is rare, and take advantage of the oportunity somwhere along the line, regardless if it is you or not.

sanitarium1inmate · March 18, 2009 6:10AM

<< 

<< Think about this situation for a moment, You would be willing to let a small fortune and a YOU SUCK slip away because you want someone else to buy this albumn from the dealer if you say nothing or let the dealer make a fortune after only buying it for pennies anyway. >>

I found an unmarked (although plainly obvious) variety while going through a dealer's stuff at a show one time. I showed it to him and asked him what he wanted for it, as it was definitely worth more than the marked price. He let me buy it priced as marked because he said it could have easily sold to someone else who picked it out without saying anything and it didn't seem to be fair to charge me extra for letting him know about it.

This kind of refutes the notion that dealers always try to squeeze the last penny out of a deal, I'd think. >>

This is true, not all dealers are cheats and thieves. But you know the saying "one bad apple spoiles the whole bunch". Personally like I said, I would buy it as quickly as possible and now that I think about it I would offer to resale it with the dealer at a split profit if I thought highly of the dealer. But first and foremost I would make sure that it was My coin and My choice to share and not rely on an "IF" he would be that kind to me.

norwegianguy · March 18, 2009 8:17AM

I think it's a no brainer.

If I walk into a store, and the dealer says: "Hey... I have this coin I don't know much on, and you're my trusted expert. What would you be willing to pay for it?"
....THEN it would be unethical to say 28 dollars for a 900 dollar coin.

BUT...

If I walk into a store, and the dealer already has put a 28 dollar price on it on his own, then I will buy it. No question. And ït will not be unethical in my book. (But I may think that there are some hidden faults on it)

(The same way around... when a novice comes into a store, and says to the dealer: "Hey... I have this coin I don't know much on, and you're my trusted expert. What would you be willing to pay for it?"
....THEN it would be unethical to say 28 dollars for a 900 dollar coin.

But when a novice comes into a store and says: "I want 28 dollars for this coin." Then I would say it's perfectly OK for the dealer to buy it. )

I will also assume that the coin is already priced to make a profit.

OR... maybe even better: I will think it is excellent marketing from the dealer's side to give out a few bargains now and then - even if he doesn't know about that special coin. At least I would brag about the cherry pick (maybe even here) and I'm pretty sure if I got such a deal I would become a faithfully returning customer.... and probably at the end of the day end up buying for much more than I made on that one coin.

BillyKingsley · March 18, 2009 8:37AM

Interesting that every responce here talks about what profit they plan to make on the coin in question.

If you were planning on keeping it for your collection would that change any answers?

coinkat · March 18, 2009 8:46AM

This is a fair question and I believe that a dealer should not get a windfall at the expense of a customer.

Just think about that answer for a moment...

fcloud · March 18, 2009 8:50AM

Interesting. I recently visited a dealer asking for variety dimes. He gets out a 2 gallon pail and says anything you can find is $1.10 each (based on that day's silver price). I picked up a couple of real values, and he didn't care. In matter of fact he was interested in what I had found.

OKbustchaser · March 18, 2009 8:56AM

<< This is a fair question and I believe that a dealer should not get a windfall at the expense of a customer.

Just think about that answer for a moment... >>

So why is a dealer less deserving of a windfall at the expense of a customer than a collector is at the expense of a dealer? In both cases one person is taking advantage of another's lack of preparation.

rld14 · March 18, 2009 8:56AM

It all depends.

There's 2 dealers that I buy from who have been incredibly honest and upfront with me, our own Larry at Sea Eagle Coins and John Huffman at Bergen Coin Exchange. I've anti-cherrypicked John before, I've spotted the odd more valuable coin (One that comes to mind was a 1918 SLQ in F+ in his junk silver) and pointed it out to him.

In return, he's given me incredible deals and looks out for me.

So, to me, it works both ways.

Now, there's a couple of B&Ms here in Jersey that I have cherrypicked and have no qualms about doing so as I am unhappy with their ethics.

coinkat · March 18, 2009 9:05AM

Simple...

A collector does not claim to the public to be an expert and does not have the responsibility to the public that a dealer does.

Sorry, but a dealer that advertizes as "paying top dollar" for coins better take the time and make the effort to do that. Sorry, but if they did not pay a fair price to begin with for a coin, then all bets are off and may the person who has taken the time to understand value deserves what they find.

Not to change the subject, but what about grading and having a difference of opinion with the dealer and you believe that this coin has potential, are you a slimeball for buying it and taking your chances?

Is looking for an upgrade a form of cherry picking? I think it very well could be.

gonzer · March 18, 2009 9:08AM

<< 

<< When does cherry-picking turn dishonest? >>

. >>

When you have to think about it.

atarian · March 18, 2009 9:15AM

When it comes to someone who has done right by you . Ill quote my father " dont bite the hand that feeds you " and " dont sh*t where you eat".

Ill let the dealer know that there is an error . Then let it be their call if they want to sell it to you for the lower price.

keets · March 18, 2009 9:18AM

dishonest shmishonest, ethics shmethics. from reading the replies from some of you guys it would appear that every deal you've ever engaged in has been one where you and the other person agreed on each and every aspect of the transaction, right on down to what the coin may have graded, what its good/bad points may have been and what EXACTLY the proper sale price should be. that's such a load of crap that it's laughable. claim the higher ground if you want to, but i surely don't buy it.

the fact that i may know more or less than the other party involved in a transaction means nothing so long as i'm not trying to deceive them. my solution when i'm "Cherrypicking" is simple-----i ask the seller "How much do you want?" and then pay that amount if i think it's fair. please tell me where that's unethical or dishonest. please tell me and explain why. i'll be waiting.

TwoSides2aCoin · March 18, 2009 9:29AM

How much it's worth to a dealer is what he agrees to sell it at.
How much our education is worth dictates our earnings potential. How honest we are indicates our intangible value, and how smart we are establishes our status or financial wealth.
Education leads to knowledge which leads to wisdom. It is not a matter of honesty, it's a matter of wisdom. Smarten up !
Cherrypicking is a hobby after you buy a whitman full of coins, and not before. Now, if you "feel like showing your intangible value to the dealer" ... You've achieved greatness in the eyes of the honest.

Happy Trails,

Joe

AUandAG · March 18, 2009 10:11AM

I've actually gone out of my way, on Ebay, to tell dealers what they have. In fact I've bought
buy it nows and simply pointed out the mistake to the dealer. Cancelled the auction and everyone
was happy (well, secretly I was hoping that they would let me have the coin for the cheeeeeep).
So, it does make you feel good to do a good deed.

But that being, said I see no problem in not mentioning it either.

I've also pointed out fakes that dealers (and Heritage once) had up. And was told to go pound
sand. However, I must admit that Heritage was very rude, but pulled the auction, and then about
3 months later sent me a thank you as it was determined by PCGS to be in fact a fake.

I think that whatever you do you are the one that has to sleep at night. Sweet dreams all!

bob

nycounsel · March 18, 2009 10:15AM

Plus, if he's selling it for $28, you have to wonder what was paid for it to begin with. Either way, they're making a profit from it.

I agree. The whole point of cherrypicking is finding something that someone else has missed. This isn't dishonest.

mrpotatoheadd · March 18, 2009 10:35AM

Why is it that B&M dealers regularly get criticized for their lack of knowledge and unprofessionalism, but when it comes to cherrypicking customers coming in to sell, they're all of a sudden supposed to be experts?

Just wondering...

Disclaimer- I'm not taking any sides here (dealers vs. collectors)- I just think it's intersting how perceptions seem to change based on varying situations.

coinkat · March 18, 2009 10:46AM

Pick up the yellow pages and read how many have in their add- "top dollar paid" or something very close that makes a seller think and even believe they are getting a fair deal.

Do collectors do that? No...

Collectors have their own issues that dealers have to deal with constantly... which is not always a picnic either

FullStrike · March 18, 2009 11:14AM

If the bloody Dealer asked $28, then without a doubt you shoulda countered " You sly old dog, I'll give you $20 and not one dime more"!

If he refused, then you say, " all right you crooked snot, but you owe me one".

Fairlaneman · March 18, 2009 11:55AM

I have a habit of letting dealers dump on me before I dump on them. With this in mind a few would get my 28 bucks and out the door I go. A few others would get a few words about what they have and then they could decide if they wanted me out the door at 28 bucks. If this was a coin that was worth a 100 bucks instead of 600 I would pay the 28 bucks and hit the road.

Ken

jmski52 · March 18, 2009 12:39PM

If the dealer needs to depend on your knowledge and your skills to make a profit, then he shouldn't be in business anyway.

If he doesn't have time to screen everything he handles, and sells it for a profit over what he paid, wth?

Cherrypicking? It's not as if you stole it. Good Grief.

GFourDriver · March 18, 2009 12:43PM

<<< I enjoy working with a particular dealer (TypeCoin on Ebay). He always cherry picks my stuff when I sell to him, but he shows me and tells me what he's doing. He also allows me to cherry pick his inventory for the best eye appeal. In fact he encourages it. For that, I spend the bulk of my money with that dealer and I always go to him first for coins that I think I want to buy.>>>

I buy from Jerry a lot too. As a matter of fact, I'm waiting for my last 7070 type set coin from him now....an AU 50 1843 Seated Liberty No Motto dollar..... can't wait!

I would definately let him know what I found but I doubt very much that it would get by him.

When does cherry-picking turn dishonest?

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