Ive met Mr. Mint once at a show in Wilmington, MA. He seems like a nice enough guy. I agree with 2 points being discussed here.
1. The price paid for the collection was satisfactory for both the seller and buyer. Not much to argue with here. 2. The handling of some of the items was a bit abrasive at times.
Some of these guys have no idea what it would entail.
They think they know.
The easy thing would be to just agree with them, fall in line and take their wild accusations and assumptions as gospel.
Steve >>
So WinPitcher, let's say these items would fetch $250,000 on ebay, and your cut was 5% - You wouldn't take $12,500 to do this?
So how much would you want to charge to handle these items on ebay for this guy?
I would gladly take $12,500 for doing this. I guess $12,500 for the work involved is beneath you.
Yes, it would be a lot of work, and being a Gold Powerseller on ebay, I know precisely how much work is involved. And as I implied, it would be a "labor of love" anyway handling all this great material.
And NO I'm not going to do 250.000 in sales for 12k.
And I'm not going to discuss my business and what I would charge that guy because I don't know exactly what he had.
Unlike you I don't engage in wild accusations and assumptions.
I can say this I'd want hell of a lot more then 12k that is for sure.
You have no idea what the actual retail value of that deal was so stop implying that you do.
All you know is what I know, the guy got 80k and the value of it after Rosen blows it out to his dealer network was going to be more.
No one knows how much more.
Especially not you.
Steve >>
Steve - There was a video, a V-I-D-E-O of the transaction, and if your weasel buddy Mr. Mint paid $80,000 then it is certain that collection is worth a lot more than that...a lot more, and to think otherwise frankly would be silly.
<<< And NO I'm not going to do 250.000 in sales for 12k. >>>
Yes, I wouldn't want to do $250,000 worth of cheap crap for 5% which might take a year's worth of time, but from the video anyone could see the value in those items.
<<< I can say this I'd want hell of a lot more then 12k that is for sure. >>>
Well, then you're a much wealthier man than me. LOL
I suggest you look at the V-I-D-E-O again because the guy did not have minty sets. Most sets were VG/EX or EX if you want to claim Rosen was lowballing the grades.
The stuff was just not that unique. Of course it was worth more then 80k, that goes without saying.
But again YOU have no idea how much more, all you can do is GUESS.
Aside from the early football and some memrobila the stuff was stuff you can find everyday on ebay.
<< <i>Then how do you expect to find this deal then?
Oh I know it's gonna find you.
I suggest you go back to 5th grade.
Steve >>
With Rosen's business model of heavy advertising and travel, he can't work on 5%, but for a high value item such as this, I'd be more than happy to work on 5%, and I would have to believe that a number of ebay consignment sellers who don't have high overhead, would do exactly the same for a nice lot such as this.
And I've already stated, that this guy should have "found" a consignment seller to sell this for him, and even at a 10% commission he would have made a lot more money...and that's not even debatable.
<< <i>I suggest you look at the V-I-D-E-O again because the guy did not have minty sets. Most sets were VG/EX or EX if you want to claim Rosen was lowballing the grades.
The stuff was just not that unique. Of course it was worth more then 80k, that goes without saying.
But again YOU have no idea how much more, all you can do is GUESS.
Aside from the early football and some memrobila the stuff was stuff you can find everyday on ebay.
Steve >>
You're not only much smarter than me, but you have much better eyesight to "know for sure" that there were no minty sets there.
I think based on Rosen's body language looking at the 62 and 63 sets, that there are many minty cards there...just on those two sets alone.
My take... as long as Rosen didn't quote the guy a ridiculous low market value which he then used to make his offer against, I don't have a problem with the dollar amount if the seller didn't. I do believe it is a seller's responsibility to know the market value of what they are selling... especially when they obviously know it has some considerable value to begin with.
That said, the disrespect he showed to this man and his collection was absolutely classless and when it comes time for my collection to go... I certainly will not subject myself or my loved ones to such abuse, be it shrewd business on his part or not.
how long would it take you to list that collection at 5%?
would you store the cards at your house during the time it takes to list them for 5%?
would he let you take them off his property?..
would you maximize profits by determining what should be graded for the man and what shouldnt? would you handle all that is involved in grading, or just list everything raw? What if the man didnt want to bother with grading anything even though you find a valuable vintage star card that you think is a PSA 10?
would you be selling the cards individually or in lots?..
would you take photos and scan all the cards as part of the 5% also?..
record keeping until all the items are sold?
unhappy customers, would you accept returns on anything? how would that be dealt with?
<< <i>how long would it take you to list that collection at 5%?
would you store the cards at your house during the time it takes to list them for 5%?
would he let you take them off his property?..
would you maximize profits by determining what should be graded for the man and what shouldnt? would you handle all that is involved in grading, or just list everything raw? What if the man didnt want to bother with grading anything even though you find a valuable vintage star card that you think is a PSA 10?
would you be selling the cards individually or in lots?..
would you take photos and scan all the cards as part of the 5% also?..
record keeping until all the items are sold?
unhappy customers, would you accept returns on anything? how would that be dealt with?
have you ever done consignment?.. >>
Yes, but I couldn't control some of the seller's behavior...I would sit down and explain the consignment arrangement to him - he could even give the items to me piecemeal if he didn't "trust anyone" to take everything off his property at once - I would actually encourage him to do it that way - sorta let me show him what I can do before allowing me to do more.
As far as returns - of course there would have to be a "holding period" to account for that - All that would be explained to him before going ahead with the auctions.
Everybody has their price to do work - Some people mine coal for a living and risk lung disease as a result - I wouldn't do that...however I'd be happy to sell this lot for a 5% gross commission.
If someone wants to contact this old guy and tell him all this, and he can try to get his cards back from Mr. Mint and give Mr. Mint the $80,000 back then go ahead and do so, and tell him this stevek guy can make him at least an extra 100 large. LOL
<< <i>If someone wants to contact this old guy and tell him all this, and he can try to get his cards back from Mr. Mint and give Mr. Mint the $80,000 back then go ahead and do so, and tell him this stevek guy can make him at least an extra 100 large. LOL >>
and you can be confident the mans reply would be "LOL KMFA".. which is probably the same thing he wouldve said at the idea of the hassle of consignment..
and to think this guy didnt know the value of his cards is ridiculous, of course he knows theyre valuable, he had late 80's basketball in there, these werent cards he had forever.. you think he was a 80's basketball fan? all those topps traded sets in his safe? lmao.. no, he bought them with hopes of cashing in one day..
if anything, most people think their stuff is worth MORE than it actually is, not the other way around, which is how you seem to think.. you can bet that old man has looked at a beckett before..
Storm, I completely agree. Unless you can make a 30-50% margin, I don't think it is worth the hassle. Sure, a lot of people can bash Mr. Mint for this method, but if these naysayers had to put up their own cash for a collection like this, I bet they wouldn't take the risk for a small 5-10% margin. IMO, the responsibility lies with the seller to know the value of their collection or at least obtain multiple quotes.
He just seems very arrogant. In the video he is just throwing the guys lifelong collection around like they were a set of 88 Topps. Yes, he did buy them but still he could show a little respect to the guys stuff. The Jersey in the oil was kind ridiculous. Who just throws the jersey on the ground after the guy just told you how difficult it was to obtain. >>
Totally agree. I am not buying the fact that it's just "business". See how fast the old guy would have sold if Rosen told him what he was going to sell his collection for. The old guy got 80K and Rosen paid 20cents on the dollar ....... give me a break. Hey old timer, I am going to give 80K for it and I'll sell your whole lifelong collection for 300K. I would have thrown Rosen out of my house on his ass. A much more fair offer would have been 150K. chaz >>
lmao. I guess he is suppose to offer $150,000 when $80,000 was enough to buy the collection? If I would have bought the collection I would be wondering if the guy would have taken $50,000 and kicking myself for not offering that.
This is just a guess, but are you a Democrat? >>
I don't know if he is-- but I'm a Democrat. And I have no problem with how Rosen handled that deal.
<< <i>Storm, I completely agree. Unless you can make a 30-50% margin, I don't think it is worth the hassle. Sure, a lot of people can bash Mr. Mint for this method, but if these naysayers had to put up their own cash for a collection like this, I bet they wouldn't take the risk for a small 5-10% margin. IMO, the responsibility lies with the seller to know the value of their collection or at least obtain multiple quotes. >>
Disagree. You think Rosen is only gonna make 50 per cent on this????? He wouldn't waste his time. chaz
<< <i>Storm, I completely agree. Unless you can make a 30-50% margin, I don't think it is worth the hassle. Sure, a lot of people can bash Mr. Mint for this method, but if these naysayers had to put up their own cash for a collection like this, I bet they wouldn't take the risk for a small 5-10% margin. IMO, the responsibility lies with the seller to know the value of their collection or at least obtain multiple quotes. >>
Disagree. You think Rosen is only gonna make 50 per cent on this????? He wouldn't waste his time. chaz >>
I don't personally know Mr. Rosen, but I bet he would was his time to make 80k. Okay, but let's say he made 70% margin on the sale. Is this wrong or unethical on his part? I still think the responsibility lies on the seller's shoulders. As already pointed out, he obviously knew what he in terms of value, so I don't see your issue with Mr. Rosen's offer.
Personally, I would need at least 30% profit to even consider the deal. Without spending a month cataloging the items, you would pretty much have to guess your resale value and offer a price under that of course, likely 50% or less to cover your bases. You also need to throw out a price you can negotiate if needed. No one would guess a price they could get and pay 90%. That would be business model for failure.
Working in mineral sales, meteorites specifically, there were times I only paid only 5-10%. Or even better, times I found the specimen and paid nothing. But lets not mention the mass of work done after the sale before you get anything back from the customer and all the expense that goes out of pocket. What about the times I paid $10,000 for material and had the wholesale level drop out overnight, so it now retails for under $10,000. What about the trips and plane tickets that brought back nothing but a story? Who is going to pay for material I had to donate (requirement to get an official name)? Who is going to pay for the diamonds blades that only last about an hour of cutting?
Without really knowing Mr. Mints business model, it is hard to say if he could have or should have paid more. However, both parties were happy with the sale. The value of anything at anytime is what someone is willing to pay for it. It likely would have been hard to get someone else to pay more then that....at least, I don't know card dealers with that money lying around to put in cardboard inventory.
Collecting PSA graded Steve Young, Marcus Allen, Bret Saberhagen and 1980s Topps Cards. Raw: Tony Gonzalez (low #'d cards, and especially 1/1's) and Steve Young.
<< <i>Personally, I would need at least 30% profit to even consider the deal. Without spending a month cataloging the items, you would pretty much have to guess your resale value and offer a price under that of course, likely 50% or less to cover your bases. You also need to throw out a price you can negotiate if needed. No one would guess a price they could get and pay 90%. That would be business model for failure.
Working in mineral sales, meteorites specifically, there were times I only paid only 5-10%. Or even better, times I found the specimen and paid nothing. But lets not mention the mass of work done after the sale before you get anything back from the customer and all the expense that goes out of pocket. What about the times I paid $10,000 for material and had the wholesale level drop out overnight, so it now retails for under $10,000. What about the trips and plane tickets that brought back nothing but a story? Who is going to pay for material I had to donate (requirement to get an official name)? Who is going to pay for the diamonds blades that only last about an hour of cutting?
Without really knowing Mr. Mints business model, it is hard to say if he could have or should have paid more. However, both parties were happy with the sale. The value of anything at anytime is what someone is willing to pay for it. It likely would have been hard to get someone else to pay more then that....at least, I don't know card dealers with that money lying around to put in cardboard inventory. >>
Great post. People who haven't spent much time buying and selling have this notion that 'profit' is the difference between the hammer price and the price you paid. But that isn't even close to the whole story. In the bigger picture, since there's no quantitative way to determine what's 'fair', you should come to the conclusion that Mark mentioned-- that a 'fair' price is one that clears the market. If Rosen made 500K on the deal, then hey-- God Bless America. When you own something valuable it's your job to determine it's worth. Al Rosen isn't a freaking appraiser, he's a dealer, and anyone with an ounce of common sense knows that a card dealer is looking to do one thing-- maximize profit. If you AREN'T doing that, if you're operating from some other half-baked tie-dye business model, then you aren't operating in the same world that the rest of us are working in.
After watching that video i saw what a crook his is. He basically took advantage of this old guy who was clearly happy to sell something for $1500 that he only paid $25.00 for. How can anybody get a value from 1950's -1960's sets by scimming threw the set in a few seconds and saying $1000 or $1500. What a joke.... That guy probably sold him $250.000 worth of stuff for $80.000.
<< <i>If someone wants to contact this old guy and tell him all this, and he can try to get his cards back from Mr. Mint and give Mr. Mint the $80,000 back then go ahead and do so, and tell him this stevek guy can make him at least an extra 100 large. LOL >>
and you can be confident the mans reply would be "LOL KMFA".. which is probably the same thing he wouldve said at the idea of the hassle of consignment..
and to think this guy didnt know the value of his cards is ridiculous, of course he knows theyre valuable, he had late 80's basketball in there, these werent cards he had forever.. you think he was a 80's basketball fan? all those topps traded sets in his safe? lmao.. no, he bought them with hopes of cashing in one day..
if anything, most people think their stuff is worth MORE than it actually is, not the other way around, which is how you seem to think.. you can bet that old man has looked at a beckett before.. >>
<<< if anything, most people think their stuff is worth MORE than it actually is, not the other way around, which is how you seem to think >>>
Your comment is basically not applicable to a number of sales situations including this one - it's the seller's situation that determines what they want to sell it for...what they "think their stuff is worth" doesn't matter. If that old guy needed a quick 80K for a life saving medical operation, and selling the cards was a quick way to get that money, and Rosen was the only one with 80K cash to give him, then he had to sell for 80K no matter what he thought the value of the cards were - and I have a feeling something such as this may have been the case based on the seller's body language throughout the proceedings - the old guy wasn't even focusing on the item tabulations that Rosen was doing - I think he just needed a set figure of quick cash.
There is an old saying, "My kingdom for a horse" - When you figure out what this means then you'll know what I mean.
<<< hassle of consignment. >>>
I only agree with that to the point that the seller probably didn't have the time - My comments were based on what he should have done to maximize his profit...He was perhaps or probably not in a position to do that. If he had "all the time in the world" there would be no reason not to grab another at least 100K from these items with a consignment deal. The hassle of consignment is a "hassle", work, for the consignee, not the consignor.
PS: I wouldn't advise you or WinPitcher to go on that show "Are you smarter than a 5th grader?"
I know someone, in Illinois, who had his collection viewed by Alan Rosen. This person insists and swears to this day that Rosen stole some cards from him after he turned down Rosen's offer. This was some amount of years ago.
I'm not saying, I'm just saying. Don't shoot the messenger.
Personally I've spoken to him in Chicago at one of the larger shows and he could not have been a more pompous a-hole. Good riddance! The hobby is better off without him.
Looking for... T206 HOFers in PSA 4 E93 Standard Caramel EMail Me
I thought some Shakespeare might entertain the "smart" WinPitcher and his noble companion pandrews. My new goal in life is to try to be just half as smart as WinPitcher...a goal that is likely unattainable due to his phenomenal brilliance...but I'll try.
From Shakespeare's Richard III, 1591/2:
CATESBY: Rescue, my Lord of Norfolk, rescue, rescue! The king enacts more wonders than a man, Daring an opposite to every danger: His horse is slain, and all on foot he fights, Seeking for Richmond in the throat of death. Rescue, fair lord, or else the day is lost!
KING RICHARD III: A horse! a horse! my kingdom for a horse!
CATESBY: Withdraw, my lord; I'll help you to a horse.
Steve if you are going to take that stuff piecemeal how does it get to you? You expect that guy to ship you a little at a time? Or are you going to fly out to Wisconsin each month?
Think things through before you make your wild statements.
As for your above comment, yeah I can google Shakespear too.
If the old guy decided to sell them himself, and if he paid taxes on them...after fees and taxes he would get appx 180,00 in his pocket for the collection.
What it boils down to then is that he basically 'lost' $100,000 to avoid doing the dirty work of listing, selling, and packaging.
I can't pretend to guess his situation, and giving up 100k may be reasonable in his case, but it seems that he left too much on the table and got blinded with the wad of QUICK cash.
Of course, it may have only been worth 150k in total. In that case, not a bad deal for the old guy.
If the buyer and seller are both satisfied with their transaction, then I see no problem with it. If it's not worth the seller's time to sell everything through the proper channels, then it's worth it to him to sell everything at a fraction of it's worth to someone like Mr. Mint.
Now, having never met Mr. Mint, I don't have an accurate opinion on him. What I can see from his many videos on Youtube, I would love to sit down and listen to his past experiences in this hobby, but I would probably get annoyed by his arrogance and his bad sense of humor.
<< <i>Steve if you are going to take that stuff piecemeal how does it get to you? You expect that guy to ship you a little at a time? Or are you going to fly out to Wisconsin each month?
Think things through before you make your wild statements.
As for your above comment, yeah I can google Shakespear too.
Steve >>
What? It's a few hundred pounds worth of stuff. What's the big deal shipping it?
Oh I just found this out...there's a new service called UPS - You can Google it and find their website....they pickup in Wisconsin and deliver anywhere - Isn't that amazing?
So basically my kid won't be able to go to college, but at least I'll have a set where the three most expensive cards are of a player I despise ~ CDsNuts
"I do know what $12,500 is - it would take me a long time to earn that kind of money picking apples in the orchard." Must be something in the apples. http://www.willnicholes.com/appleseller.htm
If it was so easy and profitable all SteveK has to do is take out an ad in the SCD offering to pay 10% more than Rosen.
The whole deal was instantly flipped for probably no more than 100K. I'm sure if you call him up, he will tell you exactly what he made. He ends up being the buyer on deals like this because his offer is higher than all the other dealer's offers, and pays in cash. The dealer he flipped it to is now into the deal for an amount over all other offers plus Rosen's 20-25% markup. Years of experience selling, connections, advertising, hard work and patience will now be required for the buyer to see the net proft that Rosen made on the deal.
<< <i>If it was so easy and profitable all SteveK has to do is take out an ad in the SCD offering to pay 10% more than Rosen.
The whole deal was instantly flipped for probably no more than 100K. I'm sure if you call him up, he will tell you exactly what he made. He ends up being the buyer on deals like this because his offer is higher than all the other dealer's offers, and pays in cash. The dealer he flipped it to is now into the deal for an amount over all other offers plus Rosen's 20-25% markup. Years of experience selling, connections, advertising, hard work and patience will now be required for the buyer to see the net proft that Rosen made on the deal. >>
<<< If it was so easy and profitable all SteveK has to do is take out an ad in the SCD offering to pay 10% more than Rosen. >>>
Wouldn't do me any good because then WinPitcher would take out an ad offering to pay 1% more than stevek offers...then Nam would top that by throwing in a jar of jellybeans.
<< <i>Your comment is basically not applicable to a number of sales situations including this one - it's the seller's situation that determines what they want to sell it for...what they "think their stuff is worth" doesn't matter. If that old guy needed a quick 80K for a life saving medical operation, and selling the cards was a quick way to get that money, and Rosen was the only one with 80K cash to give him, then he had to sell for 80K no matter what he thought the value of the cards were - and I have a feeling something such as this may have been the case based on the seller's body language throughout the proceedings - the old guy wasn't even focusing on the item tabulations that Rosen was doing - I think he just needed a set figure of quick cash. >>
which comment of mine? my comment about how much people think their stuff is worth, is absolutely applicable to this situation, especially since you think the old man was ripped off.. it is a fact that most people with sports cards think their stuff is worth more than it is..
<< <i>There is an old saying, "My kingdom for a horse" - When you figure out what this means then you'll know what I mean. >>
LOL @ you busting out the shakespeare and trying to insult me at the same time.. i havent insulted you in this thread..
<< <i>I only agree with that to the point that the seller probably didn't have the time - My comments were based on what he should have done to maximize his profit...He was perhaps or probably not in a position to do that. If he had "all the time in the world" there would be no reason not to grab another at least 100K from these items with a consignment deal. The hassle of consignment is a "hassle", work, for the consignee, not the consignor. >>
again, LOL @ the seller not having time, yet you think he should send the stuff to you in small amounts and let you do it piecemeal.. and you dont think its a hassle for the consignor? keeping up with his own stuff and making sure you (the consignee) are staying honest throughout the whole ordeal (which could take 6 months to a year to sell everything he had) is a hassle.
but so far in this thread, based on 'body language, you have somehow determined that the old man is in need of quick cash for a life-saving operation, and that Rosen saw minty cards in a 1962 set.. lol..
<< <i>PS: I wouldn't advise you or WinPitcher to go on that show "Are you smarter than a 5th grader?" >>
oh more personal insults huh?..
people recognize you as a negative, overly-paranoid, bitter person.. thats your rep on these forums..
my guess is that you've never had to run your own business, or have tried but failed.. just as you did with your gambling addiction..
how much money have you lost in your life between being a degenerate gambling addict and terrible businessman?
Comments
Some of these guys have no idea what it would entail.
They think they know.
The easy thing would be to just agree with them, fall in line and take their
wild accusations and assumptions as gospel.
Steve
1. The price paid for the collection was satisfactory for both the seller and buyer. Not much to argue with here.
2. The handling of some of the items was a bit abrasive at times.
<< <i>Perry
Some of these guys have no idea what it would entail.
They think they know.
The easy thing would be to just agree with them, fall in line and take their
wild accusations and assumptions as gospel.
Steve >>
So WinPitcher, let's say these items would fetch $250,000 on ebay, and your cut was 5% - You wouldn't take $12,500 to do this?
So how much would you want to charge to handle these items on ebay for this guy?
I would gladly take $12,500 for doing this. I guess $12,500 for the work involved is beneath you.
Yes, it would be a lot of work, and being a Gold Powerseller on ebay, I know precisely how much work is involved. And as I implied, it would be a "labor of love" anyway handling all this great material.
And NO I'm not going to do 250.000 in sales for 12k.
And I'm not going to discuss my business and what I would charge
that guy because I don't know exactly what he had.
Unlike you I don't engage in wild accusations and assumptions.
I can say this I'd want hell of a lot more then 12k that is for sure.
You have no idea what the actual retail value of that deal was so stop
implying that you do.
All you know is what I know, the guy got 80k and the value of it after
Rosen blows it out to his dealer network was going to be more.
No one knows how much more.
Especially not you.
Steve
<< <i>you should start placing ads in magazines and flying all over the country so you can list other peoples stuff for only 5%.. >>
"placing ads in magazines and flying all over the country" would all add to the cost and then it wouldn't be worth 5%.
Get a kid who just graduated from the 5th grade to explain this to you. LOL
Oh I know it's gonna find you.
I suggest you go back to 5th grade.
Steve
<< <i>Stevek stop making wild assumptions.
And NO I'm not going to do 250.000 in sales for 12k.
And I'm not going to discuss my business and what I would charge
that guy because I don't know exactly what he had.
Unlike you I don't engage in wild accusations and assumptions.
I can say this I'd want hell of a lot more then 12k that is for sure.
You have no idea what the actual retail value of that deal was so stop
implying that you do.
All you know is what I know, the guy got 80k and the value of it after
Rosen blows it out to his dealer network was going to be more.
No one knows how much more.
Especially not you.
Steve >>
Steve - There was a video, a V-I-D-E-O of the transaction, and if your weasel buddy Mr. Mint paid $80,000 then it is certain that collection is worth a lot more than that...a lot more, and to think otherwise frankly would be silly.
<<< And NO I'm not going to do 250.000 in sales for 12k. >>>
Yes, I wouldn't want to do $250,000 worth of cheap crap for 5% which might take a year's worth of time, but from the video anyone could see the value in those items.
<<< I can say this I'd want hell of a lot more then 12k that is for sure. >>>
Well, then you're a much wealthier man than me. LOL
Steve
minty sets. Most sets were VG/EX or EX if you want to claim Rosen was lowballing the grades.
The stuff was just not that unique. Of course it was worth more then 80k, that goes without saying.
But again YOU have no idea how much more, all you can do is GUESS.
Aside from the early football and some memrobila the stuff was stuff you can find
everyday on ebay.
Steve
<< <i>Then how do you expect to find this deal then?
Oh I know it's gonna find you.
I suggest you go back to 5th grade.
Steve >>
With Rosen's business model of heavy advertising and travel, he can't work on 5%, but for a high value item such as this, I'd be more than happy to work on 5%, and I would have to believe that a number of ebay consignment sellers who don't have high overhead, would do exactly the same for a nice lot such as this.
And I've already stated, that this guy should have "found" a consignment seller to sell this for him, and even at a 10% commission he would have made a lot more money...and that's not even debatable.
<< <i>No just smarter.
Steve >>
There's a lot of people smarter than me so you saying that don't mean much
<< <i>I suggest you look at the V-I-D-E-O again because the guy did not have
minty sets. Most sets were VG/EX or EX if you want to claim Rosen was lowballing the grades.
The stuff was just not that unique. Of course it was worth more then 80k, that goes without saying.
But again YOU have no idea how much more, all you can do is GUESS.
Aside from the early football and some memrobila the stuff was stuff you can find
everyday on ebay.
Steve >>
You're not only much smarter than me, but you have much better eyesight to "know for sure" that there were no minty sets there.
I think based on Rosen's body language looking at the 62 and 63 sets, that there are many minty cards there...just on those two sets alone.
John
HOF SIGNED FOOTBALL RCS
My take... as long as Rosen didn't quote the guy a ridiculous low market value which he then used to make his offer against, I don't have a problem with the dollar amount if the seller didn't. I do believe it is a seller's responsibility to know the market value of what they are selling... especially when they obviously know it has some considerable value to begin with.
That said, the disrespect he showed to this man and his collection was absolutely classless and when it comes time for my collection to go... I certainly will not subject myself or my loved ones to such abuse, be it shrewd business on his part or not.
Snorto~
would you store the cards at your house during the time it takes to list them for 5%?
would he let you take them off his property?..
would you maximize profits by determining what should be graded for the man and what shouldnt? would you handle all that is involved in grading, or just list everything raw? What if the man didnt want to bother with grading anything even though you find a valuable vintage star card that you think is a PSA 10?
would you be selling the cards individually or in lots?..
would you take photos and scan all the cards as part of the 5% also?..
record keeping until all the items are sold?
unhappy customers, would you accept returns on anything? how would that be dealt with?
have you ever done consignment?..
double their money everytime they write a check.
It simply is NOT worth doing "as a business," unless
that formula applies.
<< <i>how long would it take you to list that collection at 5%?
would you store the cards at your house during the time it takes to list them for 5%?
would he let you take them off his property?..
would you maximize profits by determining what should be graded for the man and what shouldnt? would you handle all that is involved in grading, or just list everything raw? What if the man didnt want to bother with grading anything even though you find a valuable vintage star card that you think is a PSA 10?
would you be selling the cards individually or in lots?..
would you take photos and scan all the cards as part of the 5% also?..
record keeping until all the items are sold?
unhappy customers, would you accept returns on anything? how would that be dealt with?
have you ever done consignment?.. >>
Yes, but I couldn't control some of the seller's behavior...I would sit down and explain the consignment arrangement to him - he could even give the items to me piecemeal if he didn't "trust anyone" to take everything off his property at once - I would actually encourage him to do it that way - sorta let me show him what I can do before allowing me to do more.
As far as returns - of course there would have to be a "holding period" to account for that - All that would be explained to him before going ahead with the auctions.
Everybody has their price to do work - Some people mine coal for a living and risk lung disease as a result - I wouldn't do that...however I'd be happy to sell this lot for a 5% gross commission.
If someone wants to contact this old guy and tell him all this, and he can try to get his cards back from Mr. Mint and give Mr. Mint the $80,000 back then go ahead and do so, and tell him this stevek guy can make him at least an extra 100 large. LOL
<< <i>If someone wants to contact this old guy and tell him all this, and he can try to get his cards back from Mr. Mint and give Mr. Mint the $80,000 back then go ahead and do so, and tell him this stevek guy can make him at least an extra 100 large. LOL >>
and you can be confident the mans reply would be "LOL KMFA".. which is probably the same thing he wouldve said at the idea of the hassle of consignment..
and to think this guy didnt know the value of his cards is ridiculous, of course he knows theyre valuable, he had late 80's basketball in there, these werent cards he had forever.. you think he was a 80's basketball fan? all those topps traded sets in his safe? lmao.. no, he bought them with hopes of cashing in one day..
if anything, most people think their stuff is worth MORE than it actually is, not the other way around, which is how you seem to think.. you can bet that old man has looked at a beckett before..
I completely agree. Unless you can make a 30-50% margin, I don't think it is worth the hassle. Sure, a lot of people can bash Mr. Mint for this method, but if these naysayers had to put up their own cash for a collection like this, I bet they wouldn't take the risk for a small 5-10% margin. IMO, the responsibility lies with the seller to know the value of their collection or at least obtain multiple quotes.
"Common sense is the best distributed commodity in the world, for every man is convinced that he is well supplied with it"
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>John
Why is that?
Steve >>
He just seems very arrogant. In the video he is just throwing the guys lifelong collection around like they were a set of 88 Topps. Yes, he did buy them but still he could show a little respect to the guys stuff. The Jersey in the oil was kind ridiculous. Who just throws the jersey on the ground after the guy just told you how difficult it was to obtain. >>
Totally agree. I am not buying the fact that it's just "business". See how fast the old guy would have sold if Rosen told him what he was going to sell his collection for. The old guy got 80K and Rosen paid 20cents on the dollar ....... give me a break. Hey old timer, I am going to give 80K for it and I'll sell your whole lifelong collection for 300K. I would have thrown Rosen out of my house on his ass. A much more fair offer would have been 150K. chaz >>
lmao. I guess he is suppose to offer $150,000 when $80,000 was enough to buy the collection? If I would have bought the collection I would be wondering if the guy would have taken $50,000 and kicking myself for not offering that.
This is just a guess, but are you a Democrat? >>
I don't know if he is-- but I'm a Democrat. And I have no problem with how Rosen handled that deal.
<< <i>Storm,
I completely agree. Unless you can make a 30-50% margin, I don't think it is worth the hassle. Sure, a lot of people can bash Mr. Mint for this method, but if these naysayers had to put up their own cash for a collection like this, I bet they wouldn't take the risk for a small 5-10% margin. IMO, the responsibility lies with the seller to know the value of their collection or at least obtain multiple quotes. >>
Disagree. You think Rosen is only gonna make 50 per cent on this????? He wouldn't waste his time. chaz
<< <i>
<< <i>Storm,
I completely agree. Unless you can make a 30-50% margin, I don't think it is worth the hassle. Sure, a lot of people can bash Mr. Mint for this method, but if these naysayers had to put up their own cash for a collection like this, I bet they wouldn't take the risk for a small 5-10% margin. IMO, the responsibility lies with the seller to know the value of their collection or at least obtain multiple quotes. >>
Disagree. You think Rosen is only gonna make 50 per cent on this????? He wouldn't waste his time. chaz >>
I don't personally know Mr. Rosen, but I bet he would was his time to make 80k. Okay, but let's say he made 70% margin on the sale. Is this wrong or unethical on his part? I still think the responsibility lies on the seller's shoulders. As already pointed out, he obviously knew what he in terms of value, so I don't see your issue with Mr. Rosen's offer.
"Common sense is the best distributed commodity in the world, for every man is convinced that he is well supplied with it"
Personally, I would need at least 30% profit to even consider the deal. Without spending a month cataloging the items, you would pretty much have to guess your resale value and offer a price under that of course, likely 50% or less to cover your bases. You also need to throw out a price you can negotiate if needed. No one would guess a price they could get and pay 90%. That would be business model for failure.
Working in mineral sales, meteorites specifically, there were times I only paid only 5-10%. Or even better, times I found the specimen and paid nothing. But lets not mention the mass of work done after the sale before you get anything back from the customer and all the expense that goes out of pocket. What about the times I paid $10,000 for material and had the wholesale level drop out overnight, so it now retails for under $10,000. What about the trips and plane tickets that brought back nothing but a story? Who is going to pay for material I had to donate (requirement to get an official name)? Who is going to pay for the diamonds blades that only last about an hour of cutting?
Without really knowing Mr. Mints business model, it is hard to say if he could have or should have paid more. However, both parties were happy with the sale. The value of anything at anytime is what someone is willing to pay for it. It likely would have been hard to get someone else to pay more then that....at least, I don't know card dealers with that money lying around to put in cardboard inventory.
Raw: Tony Gonzalez (low #'d cards, and especially 1/1's) and Steve Young.
<< <i>Personally, I would need at least 30% profit to even consider the deal. Without spending a month cataloging the items, you would pretty much have to guess your resale value and offer a price under that of course, likely 50% or less to cover your bases. You also need to throw out a price you can negotiate if needed. No one would guess a price they could get and pay 90%. That would be business model for failure.
Working in mineral sales, meteorites specifically, there were times I only paid only 5-10%. Or even better, times I found the specimen and paid nothing. But lets not mention the mass of work done after the sale before you get anything back from the customer and all the expense that goes out of pocket. What about the times I paid $10,000 for material and had the wholesale level drop out overnight, so it now retails for under $10,000. What about the trips and plane tickets that brought back nothing but a story? Who is going to pay for material I had to donate (requirement to get an official name)? Who is going to pay for the diamonds blades that only last about an hour of cutting?
Without really knowing Mr. Mints business model, it is hard to say if he could have or should have paid more. However, both parties were happy with the sale. The value of anything at anytime is what someone is willing to pay for it. It likely would have been hard to get someone else to pay more then that....at least, I don't know card dealers with that money lying around to put in cardboard inventory. >>
Great post. People who haven't spent much time buying and selling have this notion that 'profit' is the difference between the hammer price and the price you paid. But that isn't even close to the whole story. In the bigger picture, since there's no quantitative way to determine what's 'fair', you should come to the conclusion that Mark mentioned-- that a 'fair' price is one that clears the market. If Rosen made 500K on the deal, then hey-- God Bless America. When you own something valuable it's your job to determine it's worth. Al Rosen isn't a freaking appraiser, he's a dealer, and anyone with an ounce of common sense knows that a card dealer is looking to do one thing-- maximize profit. If you AREN'T doing that, if you're operating from some other half-baked tie-dye business model, then you aren't operating in the same world that the rest of us are working in.
<< <i>
<< <i>If someone wants to contact this old guy and tell him all this, and he can try to get his cards back from Mr. Mint and give Mr. Mint the $80,000 back then go ahead and do so, and tell him this stevek guy can make him at least an extra 100 large. LOL >>
and you can be confident the mans reply would be "LOL KMFA".. which is probably the same thing he wouldve said at the idea of the hassle of consignment..
and to think this guy didnt know the value of his cards is ridiculous, of course he knows theyre valuable, he had late 80's basketball in there, these werent cards he had forever.. you think he was a 80's basketball fan? all those topps traded sets in his safe? lmao.. no, he bought them with hopes of cashing in one day..
if anything, most people think their stuff is worth MORE than it actually is, not the other way around, which is how you seem to think.. you can bet that old man has looked at a beckett before.. >>
<<< if anything, most people think their stuff is worth MORE than it actually is, not the other way around, which is how you seem to think >>>
Your comment is basically not applicable to a number of sales situations including this one - it's the seller's situation that determines what they want to sell it for...what they "think their stuff is worth" doesn't matter. If that old guy needed a quick 80K for a life saving medical operation, and selling the cards was a quick way to get that money, and Rosen was the only one with 80K cash to give him, then he had to sell for 80K no matter what he thought the value of the cards were - and I have a feeling something such as this may have been the case based on the seller's body language throughout the proceedings - the old guy wasn't even focusing on the item tabulations that Rosen was doing - I think he just needed a set figure of quick cash.
There is an old saying, "My kingdom for a horse" - When you figure out what this means then you'll know what I mean.
<<< hassle of consignment. >>>
I only agree with that to the point that the seller probably didn't have the time - My comments were based on what he should have done to maximize his profit...He was perhaps or probably not in a position to do that. If he had "all the time in the world" there would be no reason not to grab another at least 100K from these items with a consignment deal. The hassle of consignment is a "hassle", work, for the consignee, not the consignor.
PS: I wouldn't advise you or WinPitcher to go on that show "Are you smarter than a 5th grader?"
I'm not saying, I'm just saying. Don't shoot the messenger.
Personally I've spoken to him in Chicago at one of the larger shows and he could not have been a more pompous a-hole. Good riddance! The hobby is better off without him.
T206 HOFers in PSA 4
E93 Standard Caramel
EMail Me
My eBay auctions
From Shakespeare's Richard III, 1591/2:
CATESBY:
Rescue, my Lord of Norfolk, rescue, rescue!
The king enacts more wonders than a man,
Daring an opposite to every danger:
His horse is slain, and all on foot he fights,
Seeking for Richmond in the throat of death.
Rescue, fair lord, or else the day is lost!
KING RICHARD III:
A horse! a horse! my kingdom for a horse!
CATESBY:
Withdraw, my lord; I'll help you to a horse.
a little at a time? Or are you going to fly out to Wisconsin each month?
Think things through before you make your wild statements.
As for your above comment, yeah I can google Shakespear too.
Steve
and not the only one ever to view such a wonderful assortment of stuff with a motivated seller, he just happened to make a video.
Steve
If the old guy decided to sell them himself, and if he paid taxes on them...after fees and taxes he would get appx 180,00 in his pocket for the collection.
What it boils down to then is that he basically 'lost' $100,000 to avoid doing the dirty work of listing, selling, and packaging.
I can't pretend to guess his situation, and giving up 100k may be reasonable in his case, but it seems that he left too much on the table and got blinded with the wad of QUICK cash.
Of course, it may have only been worth 150k in total. In that case, not a bad deal for the old guy.
Now, having never met Mr. Mint, I don't have an accurate opinion on him. What I can see from his many videos on Youtube, I would love to sit down and listen to his past experiences in this hobby, but I would probably get annoyed by his arrogance and his bad sense of humor.
<< <i>Steve if you are going to take that stuff piecemeal how does it get to you? You expect that guy to ship you
a little at a time? Or are you going to fly out to Wisconsin each month?
Think things through before you make your wild statements.
As for your above comment, yeah I can google Shakespear too.
Steve >>
What? It's a few hundred pounds worth of stuff. What's the big deal shipping it?
Oh I just found this out...there's a new service called UPS - You can Google it and find their website....they pickup in Wisconsin and deliver anywhere - Isn't that amazing?
<< <i>Mark guys like Chaz and Stevek don't know what overhead is.
Steve >>
I do know what $12,500 is - it would take me a long time to earn that kind of money picking apples in the orchard.
Must be something in the apples.
http://www.willnicholes.com/appleseller.htm
<< <i>Mark guys like Chaz and Stevek don't know what overhead is.
Steve >>
Steve- you'd lose your ass on that bet. chaz
good?
Please expand on that.
Steve
That was my question by the way, I don't think the guy would do that, like Perry said he
probably would say KMFA or whatever he said. I know I would.
Do you pay him anything upfront? You are creating a logistical nightmare.
With Rosen or anyone else that did it like him the guy gets 80k upfront and no other worries.
You keep getting in deeper with every silly statement.
Steve
It was? So besides knowing exactly what the value of the guys stuff was you also know the weight of all those items?
Geez and this from an admitted loser of a gambler.
Steve
The whole deal was instantly flipped for probably no more than 100K. I'm sure if you call him up, he will tell you exactly what he made. He ends up being the buyer on deals like this because his offer is higher than all the other dealer's offers, and pays in cash. The dealer he flipped it to is now into the deal for an amount over all other offers plus Rosen's 20-25% markup. Years of experience selling, connections, advertising, hard work and patience will now be required for the buyer to see the net proft that Rosen made on the deal.
<< <i>If it was so easy and profitable all SteveK has to do is take out an ad in the SCD offering to pay 10% more than Rosen.
The whole deal was instantly flipped for probably no more than 100K. I'm sure if you call him up, he will tell you exactly what he made. He ends up being the buyer on deals like this because his offer is higher than all the other dealer's offers, and pays in cash. The dealer he flipped it to is now into the deal for an amount over all other offers plus Rosen's 20-25% markup. Years of experience selling, connections, advertising, hard work and patience will now be required for the buyer to see the net proft that Rosen made on the deal. >>
<<< If it was so easy and profitable all SteveK has to do is take out an ad in the SCD offering to pay 10% more than Rosen. >>>
Wouldn't do me any good because then WinPitcher would take out an ad offering to pay 1% more than stevek offers...then Nam would top that by throwing in a jar of jellybeans.
That's all.
Ron Burgundy
Buying Vintage, all sports.
Buying Woody Hayes, Les Horvath, Vic Janowicz, and Jesse Owens autographed items
<< <i>Your comment is basically not applicable to a number of sales situations including this one - it's the seller's situation that determines what they want to sell it for...what they "think their stuff is worth" doesn't matter. If that old guy needed a quick 80K for a life saving medical operation, and selling the cards was a quick way to get that money, and Rosen was the only one with 80K cash to give him, then he had to sell for 80K no matter what he thought the value of the cards were - and I have a feeling something such as this may have been the case based on the seller's body language throughout the proceedings - the old guy wasn't even focusing on the item tabulations that Rosen was doing - I think he just needed a set figure of quick cash. >>
which comment of mine? my comment about how much people think their stuff is worth, is absolutely applicable to this situation, especially since you think the old man was ripped off.. it is a fact that most people with sports cards think their stuff is worth more than it is..
<< <i>There is an old saying, "My kingdom for a horse" - When you figure out what this means then you'll know what I mean. >>
LOL @ you busting out the shakespeare and trying to insult me at the same time.. i havent insulted you in this thread..
<< <i>I only agree with that to the point that the seller probably didn't have the time - My comments were based on what he should have done to maximize his profit...He was perhaps or probably not in a position to do that. If he had "all the time in the world" there would be no reason not to grab another at least 100K from these items with a consignment deal. The hassle of consignment is a "hassle", work, for the consignee, not the consignor. >>
again, LOL @ the seller not having time, yet you think he should send the stuff to you in small amounts and let you do it piecemeal.. and you dont think its a hassle for the consignor? keeping up with his own stuff and making sure you (the consignee) are staying honest throughout the whole ordeal (which could take 6 months to a year to sell everything he had) is a hassle.
but so far in this thread, based on 'body language, you have somehow determined that the old man is in need of quick cash for a life-saving operation, and that Rosen saw minty cards in a 1962 set.. lol..
<< <i>PS: I wouldn't advise you or WinPitcher to go on that show "Are you smarter than a 5th grader?"
oh more personal insults huh?..
people recognize you as a negative, overly-paranoid, bitter person.. thats your rep on these forums..
my guess is that you've never had to run your own business, or have tried but failed.. just as you did with your gambling addiction..
how much money have you lost in your life between being a degenerate gambling addict and terrible businessman?