CAC or Eagle Eye Photo Seal?
drddm
Posts: 5,402 ✭✭✭✭✭
Which sticker would you want on your FE and IHCs and much more importantly, WHY?
Ever see a FE or IHC with BOTH stickers?
Ever see a FE or IHC with BOTH stickers?
0
Comments
I wonder if Rick has ever seen a slabbed FE or IHC with a CAC sticker on it that he felt did NOT deserve a Eagle Eye Photo Seal sticker, hmmmm?
<< <i>I'd always choose the Eagle Eye photo-seal. At least you can be sure an actual expert in the series looked at the coin. >>
A "No-Brainer" for me...Rick is the man.
Collector of Early 20th Century U.S. Coinage.
ANA Member R-3147111
<< <i>I totally agree. Rick Snow is THE expert when it comes to FE and IHCs, IMHO.
I wonder if Rick has ever seen a slabbed FE or IHC with a CAC sticker on it that he felt did NOT deserve a Eagle Eye Photo Seal sticker, hmmmm? >>
Yes, I have seen a few on his site, IIRC. On the other hand, I know of a least one photo sealed coin that CAC declined to sticker. I will take Rick's approval as being more meaningful to me.
merse
I find it rather amusing, however, that one can be FOR that concept but AGAINST the CAC. The basic principle is the same, and CAC throws in liquidity as well.
<< <i>I find it rather amusing, however, that one can be FOR that concept but AGAINST the CAC. The basic principle is the same, >>
I look at it like the Eagle Eye sticker is for the eye appeal of the coin assigned by a specialist in that series...CAC is purely for the supposed grade, eye appeal doesn't count whatsoever.
<< <i>
<< <i>I find it rather amusing, however, that one can be FOR that concept but AGAINST the CAC. The basic principle is the same, >>
I look at it like the Eagle Eye sticker is for the eye appeal of the coin assigned by a specialist in that series...CAC is purely for the supposed grade, eye appeal doesn't count whatsoever. >>
Eye appeal is part of a coin's grade. Period.
<< <i>Eye appeal is part of a coin's grade. Period. >>
Only if the grade is inflated.
Edited to add:
<< <i>Eye appeal does matter with CAC. I had a coin that did not sticker and lack of eye appeal was the reason told to me >>
From the CAC website: "Your coin has been verified as meeting the standard for strict quality within its grade." Since eye appeal is qualitative and not quantitative there is no way CAC wouldn't sticker a coin based on eye appeal. How can they say a coin isn't appealing? Supposedly it's all about the grade with CAC...at least according to their website...but then they tell you your coin doesn't have eye appeal. What a joke of an outfit.
<< <i>
<< <i>Eye appeal is part of a coin's grade. Period. >>
Only if the grade is inflated.
Edited to add:
<< <i>Eye appeal does matter with CAC. I had a coin that did not sticker and lack of eye appeal was the reason told to me >>
From the CAC website: "Your coin has been verified as meeting the standard for strict quality within its grade." Since eye appeal is qualitative and not quantitative there is no way CAC wouldn't sticker a coin based on eye appeal. How can they say a coin isn't appealing? Supposedly it's all about the grade with CAC...at least according to their website...but then they tell you your coin doesn't have eye appeal. What a joke of an outfit. >>
You are making no sense whatsoever. Kindly stick to things you have a clue about.
<< <i>I'd love to have the Eagle Eye seal on any that I owned - in addition to the CAC sticker. >>
Brother, I know a certain old man that has exactly that.
I've never seen a "DOG" with a Rick Snow seal of approval on it.
To me that speaks volumes.
<< <i>I find it rather amusing, however, that one can be FOR that concept but AGAINST the CAC. The basic principle is the same, and CAC throws in liquidity as well. >>
Hey, quit spamming the board.
<< <i>
<< <i>I find it rather amusing, however, that one can be FOR that concept but AGAINST the CAC. The basic principle is the same, and CAC throws in liquidity as well. >>
Hey, quit spamming the board.
Agree. TDN isn't even being subtle. Also, Eagle Eye Photo Seal coins are very liquid.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
I definitely 100% respect Eagle Eye but if I could have only one on the coin I see much more market value in having CAC. No use pretending that myself or my heirs will not someday offer the collection for sale.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>I find it rather amusing, however, that one can be FOR that concept but AGAINST the CAC. The basic principle is the same, and CAC throws in liquidity as well. >>
Hey, quit spamming the board.
Agree. TDN isn't even being subtle. Also, Eagle Eye Photo Seal coins are very liquid. >>
Why should I be subtle? I reserve the right to be just as much an opinionated jerk as some others on here. Again, I ask - how can one be FOR the Eagle Eye concept, but against the CAC concept?
Neither sticker matters in the least to me for coins that I intend to add to my personal collection. I've seen coins that I like and coins that I would never buy with with stickers. Stickers are opinions, and often the opinions are good, but by no means always. Neither the CAC nor the PS sticker is totally objective. If you are new to the hobby, or don't trust your grading skills or knowledge, then stickers probably have value.
No plastic or sticker will ever totally replace expert knowledge or an eye for beauty. Technical correctness does not guarantee value.
Just as "buy the coin, not the plastic" is excellent advice, the same holds for stickers.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>I find it rather amusing, however, that one can be FOR that concept but AGAINST the CAC. The basic principle is the same, and CAC throws in liquidity as well. >>
Hey, quit spamming the board.
Agree. TDN isn't even being subtle. Also, Eagle Eye Photo Seal coins are very liquid. >>
Why should I be subtle? I reserve the right to be just as much an opinionated jerk as some others on here. Again, I ask - how can one be FOR the Eagle Eye concept, but against the CAC concept?
Does JA know as much about every US series as Rick Snow knows about FE/Indian cents?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>You are making no sense whatsoever. Kindly stick to things you have a clue about. >>
Edited to add:
<< <i>Learn to grade and make your own decisions. Forget about stickers. >>
This is the most intelligent statement made on this thread.
Edited further to add:
<< <i>I doubt it, but why would anyone need to know about varieties and the sort to provide independent grading expertise? >>
And this is the dumbest statement on this thread. Ask a Bust Half collector if "varieties and the sort" affect how a coin is graded.
<< <i>
<< <i>You are making no sense whatsoever. Kindly stick to things you have a clue about. >>
Edited to add:
<< <i>Learn to grade and make your own decisions. Forget about stickers. >>
This is the most intelligent statement made on this thread. >>
Learning to grade is only PART of the process. I have been grading coins for 40 years. I won my coin club grading contest as a teenager. I won the PCGS grading contest the first year and came in second the next year. And yet I [and for that part almost EVERY collector] cannot detect what the coin docs can do to coins these days.
So tell me, oh wise doh - how does learning to grade protect you from doctoring?
<< <i>but why would anyone need to know about varieties and the sort to provide independent grading expertise? >>
Good question.
Knowledge of varieties is one skill, technical knowledge is another. Expertise in either does not guarantee the ability to distinguish between an average coin and an exceptional coin. The same is true for knowledge about felines.
<< <i>If you're such a great grader TDN as you obviously are, why do you love CAC so much? You clearly don't need it and your coins certainly speak for themselves. >>
That's what I'm trying to explain to you, sir. I *am* a very good grader. But coin docs can do things to coins that I have NO clue about. And it takes decades to pick up nuances on series that I'm NOT an expert on and I don't have decades left - if I want to buy a coin in any other series than what I collect [or want to be assured I'm not buying a doctored coin] then I have to rely upon the expertise of others.
1. A coin that I like and that fits my collection
2. Sold by a dealer whose eye and judgment I trust
3. In top tier plastic, preferably PCGS
4. With a sticker
Without #1, there is no deal. It's nice to have #2 along for the ride. It's also nice to have an authenticity guarantee for coins that have known to be counterfeited and a grade guarantee in case the coin turns. This is especially so for plastic. For a coin that I am adding to my collection, I would rather have the Rick Snow blessing, but if I am planning on selling it, at some point down the line, I think that so long as the CAC brand continues to gain traction, the liquidity and marketability of the coin will be greater than without it.
I spend about 75% of my effort with #1, 15% with #2, 8% with #3, and 2% with #4.
<< <i> Not all certified coins are equal. We have seen coins that are in reality no better than MS-63's sitting in MS-66 holders. Our records prove that over 1/2 of the Flying Eagle and Indian Cents in slabs today are overgraded or just plain ugly. Even one overgraded coin in the marketplace makes a buy sell market based solely on slabs impossible. Since we see and sell more high grade Flying Eagle and Indian Cents than anyone, we were in a unique position to put our knowledge and experience to work in creating true consistency in the grading of slabs.
What we do is put a label on the plastic holder and make a plastic laminated photo certificate to accompany the coin. These Photo Seals attest that we (Rick Snow and Brian Wagner) have examined the coin and agree with the grading services opinion. It's a second opinion that carries extra benefit, because they can then be bought and sold at our market price. >>
Eagle Eye Photo Seal
PHOTO SEAL does not matter to me nor does CAC on copper coins
PCGS matters because they are the only ones who will buy a coin back if it is doctored and in their holder.
I believe I am a better grader of copper coins (Flying Eagle and Indian cents) than Rick Snow or anyone at CAC.
Rick Snow is THE EXPERT on die varieties concerning Flying Eagle and Indian Cents.
John Albanese is THE EXPERT on grading GOLD COINS, not copper coins
PCGS copper coins are worth more than any other third party grading company with or without Photo Seal or a CAC sticker
Stewart Blay
<< <i>I totally agree. Rick Snow is THE expert when it comes to FE and IHCs, IMHO.
I wonder if Rick has ever seen a slabbed FE or IHC with a CAC sticker on it that he felt did NOT deserve a Eagle Eye Photo Seal sticker, hmmmm? >>
That would depend on if CAC and Rick were judging the same coin in the exact sme way. CAC tends to focus heavily on the technical aspect and as a result eye appeal may often take second fiddle resulting in some not so great looking coins getting the beanie. I personally don't know what Photo Seal is supposed to signify.
1) A coin in a PCGS holder with an Eagle Eye Photo Seal, or
2) A coin in an NGC holder with a CAC sticker?
PCGS actually guarantees the grade of copper coins, and Rick Snow creates an active buy-sell market (liquidity) in the coins. Eagle Eye sealed coins are only in a specific market segment that is Rick Snow's specialty, so *of course* he has expertise, and he's going to continue to be an active buyer/seller in that market. NGC does not guarantee the grade of copper coins in early generation holders (and only limited time guarantees on copper coins in their new holders), and CAC may choose to make a market in a coin if they *need* it. CAC dealers reserve the right to reject CAC coins if they don't *need* them. (And maybe they don't *need* them if they just decide the coin actually didn't merit the sticker.)
Oh, and by the way, I have a super PCGS-graded Indian cent that I purchased with a CAC sticker already on it. When I searched auction databases for a history of the coin, I found that the coin previously HAD an Eagle Eye sticker. Why did CAC feel it necessary to remove the Eagle Eye sticker, just so that they could put the CAC sticker in the same place on the holder?
I still just see CAC as a second opinion by someone who has no liability for their own mistakes. If there's a problem, the original TPG is the only opinion really on the hook for it. If you offered it to CAC, they could choose to not admit the problem, and then just say they don't need that coin right now and so not buy it back. I've not seen any evidence of the so-called CAC market making, or a CAC population report, or a CAC-based registry. (Remember, they said there would be a huge benefit for the registry collectors allowing them to compete on an even basis, based on the CAC-opined grade?) So, at this point, it just seems to me that CAC only serves to take in money to assign their own non-guaranteed second opinion.
Every photoseal coin I have owned or seen in hand was a nice coin. I haven't seen a CAC coin in hand so I can't claim the same. I see nothing wrong with added insurance you garner from Rick or CAC.
BTW I have seen many coins in hand that members here thought were PQ only to think to myself, I must be missing something. I've been grading coins since the 50's and still am inadequate.
<< <i>According to Rick Snow's website, photo seal is to guarantee that the grade is correct.
<< <i> Not all certified coins are equal. We have seen coins that are in reality no better than MS-63's sitting in MS-66 holders. Our records prove that over 1/2 of the Flying Eagle and Indian Cents in slabs today are overgraded or just plain ugly. Even one overgraded coin in the marketplace makes a buy sell market based solely on slabs impossible. Since we see and sell more high grade Flying Eagle and Indian Cents than anyone, we were in a unique position to put our knowledge and experience to work in creating true consistency in the grading of slabs.
What we do is put a label on the plastic holder and make a plastic laminated photo certificate to accompany the coin. These Photo Seals attest that we (Rick Snow and Brian Wagner) have examined the coin and agree with the grading services opinion. It's a second opinion that carries extra benefit, because they can then be bought and sold at our market price. >>
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Under the Pink Sheet Pricing section on the Eagle Eye Website is this caveat (the bold is mine):
As far as Eagle Eye Rare Coins is concerned, any photo sealed coin is automatically placed in the correctly graded category and has its value reflected in this list.
Buying prices:To calculate our base buying price for any coin listed here, take 75% of the retail price listed. We of course reserve the right to decline any buy that may be an unwanted duplication of our inventory or some other reason. We are always in need of quality coins, so please offer us any coins you may have available for sale. Of course, we may offer more than the 75% of ask too! The market is such that there is great competition of attractive coins. We offer a base price, but if you feel your coin is worth more, please feel free to ask if we can pay more! We certainly want your nice coins.
My interpretation is that the Pink Sheet is a buying guide and the PS a guarantee that the coin falls into the buying guide. Obviously, the dealer is not making a market in the coins, but rather suggesting a bottom value.
I assume the "can be bought and sold at our market price" means a suggested sell value and a suggested buy value of at least 75% of the sell value.
<< <i>PHOTO SEAL does not matter to me nor does CAC on copper coins
PCGS matters because they are the only ones who will buy a coin back if it is doctored and in their holder.
I believe I am a better grader of copper coins (Flying Eagle and Indian cents) than Rick Snow or anyone at CAC.
Rick Snow is THE EXPERT on die varieties concerning Flying Eagle and Indian Cents.
John Albanese is THE EXPERT on grading GOLD COINS, not copper coins
PCGS copper coins are worth more than any other third party grading company with or without Photo Seal or a CAC sticker
Stewart Blay >>
Well said, Stewart!
I think the key point is, beyond the original TPG grade, the only truly valuable second opinion would be from a TRUE EXPERT in the field of the given coin at issue -- like Stewart undeniably is for copper coins.
Michael Kittle Rare Coins --- 1908-S Indian Head Cent Grading Set --- No. 1 1909 Mint Set --- Kittlecoins on Facebook --- Long Beach Table 448
<< <i>Actually, according to the website, the Photo Seal does carry the guarantee that the coin will be bought back for a price at least 75% of their selling price. Given that PCGS doesn't pay full price according to their guide either, I think Rick's guarantee is definitely worth something... CAC doesn't guarantee squat! >>
See my previous post - it is not a guarantee but rather an "almost guarantee", although I suspect Eagle Eye would buy back most coins. However, to be precise, there is a caveat in the wording:
"To calculate our base buying price for any coin listed here, take 75% of the retail price listed. We of course reserve the right to decline any buy that may be an unwanted duplication of our inventory or some other reason."
<< <i>illini420- You are mistaken. CAC guarantees they will buy coins back at the grade with their sticker on it. >>
If that's true, then I stand corrected... However, I've never heard that before and have instead heard that the sticker carries no guarantee...
Michael Kittle Rare Coins --- 1908-S Indian Head Cent Grading Set --- No. 1 1909 Mint Set --- Kittlecoins on Facebook --- Long Beach Table 448
<< <i>Eye appeal is part of a coin's grade. Period. >>
Amend that to say "part of a coin's MARKET grade" and I agree. A coin could be a technical gem and a market dog.
Then again, technical grading is basically dead today so the distinction hardly matters.
<< <i>illini420- You are mistaken. CAC guarantees they will buy coins back at the grade with their sticker on it. >>
I guess that assumes that they actually want and need the coin for their inventory. I doubt that its all automatic purchase.
<< <i>
<< <i>Eye appeal is part of a coin's grade. Period. >>
Amend that to say "part of a coin's MARKET grade" and I agree. A coin could be a technical gem and a market dog.
Then again, technical grading is basically dead today so the distinction hardly matters. >>
No, I won't amend it. Eye appeal is part of a coin's grade. Period.
What makes up eye appeal? Strike, luster, surfaces, toning. All are intrinsic parts of the grade except the latter.
<< <i>. Again, I ask - how can one be FOR the Eagle Eye concept, but against the CAC concept? >>
That would indeed be an oxymoron. All (except one) of my PCGS graded FE and indian head cents have BOTH the Rick Snow photoseal and the CAC sticker.
By the way, the CAC sticker is on the LEFT of the holder when there is a Snow photoseal.
There is "synergy" or added liquidity in my opinion when you have BOTH the photoseal and the CAC sticker.
The one PCGS graded indian head cent that did not have the Rick Snow photoseal was also rejected by CAC.
REASON: PVC was discovered on the coin. This is why I am extremely cautious even with PCGS slabbed FE and NDN copper coins.
<< <i>No, I won't amend it. Eye appeal is part of a coin's grade. Period.
What makes up eye appeal? Strike, luster, surfaces, toning. All are intrinsic parts of the grade except the latter. >>
They are intrinsic parts of the MARKET grade which in reality is more about pricing it than grading it as it's practiced today. Surfaces can also be part of the technical grade, but if a coin was poorly struck (and with little luster because the strike didn't produce the full cartwheel effect), it could still be a technical MS-70 if it still has pristine surfaces and looks as struck. So if by "intrinsic" part of the grade you mean technical grade, I guess your definition of technical grading is different than the one I learned. Of course, technical grading is practically extinct, so for real-world purposes I concede that your statement is in fact correct.
<< <i>No, I won't amend it. Eye appeal is part of a coin's grade. Period. >>
Hmmm. I would agree that eye appeal is indeed (at the very least) a small part of a coin's grade, even a technical grade as well as market grade. It is usually not a large enough part of the grade to bump the coin up or down unless it is a borderline (hate that word!) coin between two grades.
"Part" could be as little as 1% and as high as a high percentage % (in the case of "liner" coins.) even in technical grading.
The eye appeal must come into play when the "judgement call" is needed on liner coins.
But I prefer not to buy coins that just made it to the next grade on the basis of that eye appeal judgement call. I want the clear and compelling solid for grade slabbed coins.
They are intrinsic parts of the technical grade. How can you technically grade a coin without taking into account luster, surfaces and strike?