How can you tell if it's been dipped?

yellowkid · March 6, 2009 6:35AM

What do you look for to identify a coin that was dipped long ago? Any examples out there? thanks guys.

YaHa · March 6, 2009 6:41AM

If it has A-1 Sauce or Barbecue Stains on them..

JRocco · March 6, 2009 6:48AM

If a coin is dipped properly it is very hard to tell.
Overdipping a coin effects the surfaces and tends to dull the flow lines that
were created when the coin was struck. The flow lines are what gives a coin
that nice cartwheel effect and overall MS look.

Now if you have a few hundred year old coin that is bright white you might assume it was
dipped to remove the coins skin or patina. Look at the surfaces closely.
There are some Morgans that sat in the middle of bank bags that remained incredibly white so it is not
always the case that an old white coin was dipped.
In short, a coin should develop a skin when the surface is exposed to air for any length of time.
Look for the skin. It is sometimes colorful and sometimes not.
Hope this helps.

edited to add - I did not get into a coin that was dipped and is now retoning.
I am sure others will chime in on that.

collegecoincollector · March 6, 2009 7:00AM

I look for dull luster. It could still look white, but it wouldn't have that shine to it. Another thing to do is look up the specifics of that particular coin and see if it is a coin known for its luster or not. I agree with the above though, if it has been done properly it can be very hard to tell. That part just comes with practice.

doh · March 6, 2009 7:01AM

If it's 100 years old and totally white: dipped.

yellowkid · March 6, 2009 8:20AM

Well I don't like white coins so there is nothing I'm going to buy there, but I would like to be able to identify coins that were dipped long ago and are now retoning.

clarkbar04 · March 6, 2009 8:24AM

<< If it's 100 years old and totally white: dipped. >>

False.

BECOKA · March 6, 2009 8:35AM

Well if it is a circulated coin there should be some kind of darker color around the devices from dirt etc, if the dirt is only present in hard to reach places or not at all chances are it was dipped.

Cam40 · March 6, 2009 8:41AM

i think most collector coins have been cleaned, or maybe not most but
a large percentage.
for every nice coin you might be looking for,there will be 150 bad examples/cleaned ect. of that coin
looking for a home.

doh · March 6, 2009 8:47AM

<< << If it's 100 years old and totally white: dipped. >>

False. >>

I'll restate: Unless it's been sealed inside a vacuum for the past 100 years, a totally white coin of that age has been dipped.

19Lyds · March 6, 2009 8:56AM

If you really have to ask, you really should not have bothered as the reality of the situation is that you can never, ever tell for sure. You can speculate and surmise, reason it out apply logic or whatever other methods you choose but you simply will never know for sure on an Uncirculated coin.

The only absolute positive way to tell for sure is if you owned the coin from day 1! Everything else, is pure speculation based upon observation and personal preference.

Having said that, circulated coinage is another story.

lkenefic · March 6, 2009 9:51AM

... if done properly... you can't tell. If dipped long ago [properly], and the coin is starting to retone... you'd never be able to tell.

zeebob · March 6, 2009 9:54AM

Many MS and AU coins, particularly crown sized (large dollar sized) coins will reflect light with a cartwheel. That cartwheel is luster. If the coin is dull, or shiny, but not lustery, then dipped.

Circulated coinage can be a bit harder.

JRocco · March 6, 2009 9:58AM

<< ... if done properly... you can't tell. If dipped long ago [properly], and the coin is starting to retone... you'd never be able to tell. >>

While this sounds like it should be, I disagree as far as re-toning is concerned.
The dip effects the surface of the coin on the microscopic level and this is why
those re-toners are so vibrant compared to most naturally toned coins. They often
show their light centers and blue rim tones when re-toning.
Not always, but often.

RWB · March 6, 2009 10:00AM

The chocolate will be stale.

yellowkid · March 6, 2009 12:24PM

It sounds like if it wasn't overdone, it really doesn't matter.

MidLifeCrisis · March 6, 2009 12:34PM

<< It sounds like if it wasn't overdone, it really doesn't matter. >>

It matters a great deal to some of us.

ajia · March 6, 2009 12:42PM

How can you tell if it's been dipped?
What do you look for to identify a coin that was dipped long ago?

BU coins, dipped (correctly- as in once, very quickly) are very hard for me to detect, just ask PCGS!

But if the coin is a circ and either white, or reflective under the toning.....pretty easy to spot.

robkool · March 6, 2009 1:01PM

I look for those flat, dull like surfaces whether on the skin, or beneath the retoning. I also use a soft white light bulb (incandecent) while rotating the coin for best viewing...

yellowkid · March 6, 2009 1:03PM

It matters a great deal to some of us.

So what is it about a dipped coin that turns you off? Particularly one that was done "right" and only once, long ago.

COALPORTER · March 6, 2009 1:14PM

<< If it's 100 years old and totally white: dipped. >>

False. As an example, I saw coins come from a 100 year old building corner stone and they were 100% white. Another example is coins that were varnished with clear coating.

I have coins that are 50 years old and still white, so I don't see why they wont go 50 more if stored correctly.

MidLifeCrisis · March 6, 2009 1:17PM

<< It matters a great deal to some of us.

So what is it about a dipped coin that turns you off? Particularly one that was done "right" and only once, long ago. >>

I want a coin as close to it's original, natural condition as possible, not a coin that someone has artificially tried to make better than it really is.

I realize that many old coins have been cleaned, dipped, or otherwise "conserved" long ago and that it may be near impossible to tell now, but if I know that a coin has been dipped or "conserved", I will avoid it.

cucamongacoin · March 6, 2009 1:18PM

The effects of a proper quick dip are very minute. Generally, the luster shouldn't be noticeably impaired, but there is an increase in microscopic granularity to the surfaces. You can do your own experiment by dipping a BU silver coin that seems to be original, inspecting the surfaces carefully with a low power (7X) loupe before and after the dip. A couple of seconds is all it takes, then rinse thoroughly with lukewarm water, and pat dry with a soft cloth.

COALPORTER · March 6, 2009 1:22PM

I like white MS coins. I look for coins that look good in many lighting conditions. I look for coins that look good in natural ambient light too. Overdipped, washed out, coins are easy to spot and the flow lines only stand out in very specific light conditions. Pass on those.

RedTiger · March 6, 2009 4:06PM

There was a recent thread where I posted images of six different 1892 Barber halves, with some good discussion.

link to thread

I start with two images from Ebay, and then there are four more from Teletrade on page 2. Unfortunately, the image for Coin A was removed from the server, and that was the one many thought most original looking. To my eyes, Coin E on page 2 looks the most obviously dipped, Coin D has the highest chance of being original. I did a poll and 60% liked the look of Coin A. I think Coin A is dipped and retoned (as did RYK) because the color looked off, with surface disturbances. In fact, I suspect that all six coins may have been dipped, even though five are in PCGS holders. Lots of Barbers that are currently offered for sale have gotten a bath at some point in their lives.

The wider point for the readers is that no one is sure. Even though 60% liked Coin A over Coin B, I didn't think Coin A is original, and would not have paid the premium for that look.

Images from that thread for reference:

Coin A $400 looks dipped and retoned to my eyes, color is a greyish/pinkish off, and there are eddies on surfaces
/ sorry, image for this coin is gone. Many thought it looked more original because of the grey/pink color. Despite a lower technical grade of AU50, it sold for more money than some of the white coins of higher grade, because of the perception of being more original. In my mind, the perception is not reality, just a better job, or an older dipping with time to retone.

Coin B $320 (my favorite in this group when factoring in price)

Coin C $320 similar look to Coin B, with a bit less luster

Coin D $525 may not be totally original either

Coin E $320 to my mind, has the typical dipped/retoned look that many Barbers have. See the flatness vs. the other coins.

Coin F $250 the marks on the cheek probably made this the cheapest coin in the batch

Steve27 · March 6, 2009 5:49PM

<< 

<< << If it's 100 years old and totally white: dipped. >>

False. >>

I'll restate: Unless it's been sealed inside a vacuum for the past 100 years, a totally white coin of that age has been dipped. >>

Still false.

RareSov · March 6, 2009 6:06PM

<< 

<< << If it's 100 years old and totally white: dipped. >>

False. >>

I'll restate: Unless it's been sealed inside a vacuum for the past 100 years, a totally white coin of that age has been dipped. >>

What if it's platinum ?

TwoSides2aCoin · March 6, 2009 7:35PM

I use a few of my senses.
Sight, smell, feel. Do not taste them and do not listen to me.
Then there is the sixth sense.

TwoSides2aCoin · March 6, 2009 9:54PM

Bruceswar woke me up with a Taco Bell napkin experiment. You just can't tell. It's a laborious process learning and there are lots of bones in the closet around this place, and market acceptable dirt under the rug...

Honestly. Retoning made this game harder for me. But dipping ? That's easy.

ColonialCoinUnion · March 6, 2009 10:00PM

The more coins you look at and the more experience you have, the better able you'll be to determine what "looks right", and what doesn't. I realize this sounds almost exactly like Potter Stewart's definition of pornography, but I think it's true: There is no definitive test to determine what has been dipped and what hasn't.

And even after you've been doing this for a long time, you still see coins which are sufficiently unusual that you aren't sure what to make of them.

yellowkid · March 7, 2009 3:53AM

yellowkid · March 7, 2009 3:56AM

I'm still chuckling at the Potter Stewart remark, some of you guys are pretty witty. I've gotten a lot of good feedback here, RedTigers pics are a help. As I stated, I like toned coins but since that can include dipped toned coins I want to try and educate myself. Thanks to all!

yellowkid · March 7, 2009 3:59AM

Redtiger, your example "e" reminds me of the look I see in many commems, nice and clean in the center with that light rim toning, when I see examples like this would the first thing to look for next be a lack of luster?

RedTiger · March 7, 2009 6:05AM

<< Redtiger, your example "e" reminds me of the look I see in many commems, nice and clean in the center with that light rim toning, when I see examples like this would the first thing to look for next be a lack of luster? >>

In person, tilt and rotate the coin, and watch how the light reflects off the surface, the cartwheel. For online images, yes luster is a good indicator. I mentioned the term "flatness," meaning a lack of depth to the surface of the coin. For classic commems, just as big a problem are toners made during the past few years under laboratory conditions. When I received my Coin B, there are a couple of small areas that look like it was dipped to remove something, but a speck or two remained. Sometimes by looking at the protected areas such around the stars on a Barber half, you can get a better idea.

Again, people will have varying opinions. Only in the obvious cases is there a strong consensus on a coin as far as dipping or toning, and many of those will not make it into top tier slabs. In my thread the vote was 60/40, with 40% probably thinking that Coin A was dipped and retoned, while 60% thought it either original, or at least more original enough to choose it over a coin with a clearly higher technical grade (AU50 vs. AU55). A lot of coins are going to be in that grey area of 60/40 or 70/30 opinions.

In the other thread, I also mentioned the term "theoretical" coins. Meaning, if a person looks high and far and long and can't seem to find any coins that meet their quality standard, a person may have to decide to compromise, or forget about completing that set. If original coins are hard to find, those deemed original by the majority often sell for large premiums. In my thread, Coin A sold for 20% more money than Coin B, even though it was graded lower, even though a good many folks didn't think the coin was original at all.

yellowkid · March 7, 2009 6:07AM

Thanks again!

fcloud · March 7, 2009 6:09AM

Many -- not all -- many dipped coins have a unreal looking color to them. the silver coins get a too good to be true look. The silver simply looks too bright and striped of any luster. Copper coins many time are the wrong color. Too orange or in may cases even turn pink.

19Lyds · March 7, 2009 8:59AM

<< The effects of a proper quick dip are very minute. Generally, the luster shouldn't be noticeably impaired, but there is an increase in microscopic granularity to the surfaces. You can do your own experiment by dipping a BU silver coin that seems to be original, inspecting the surfaces carefully with a low power (7X) loupe before and after the dip. A couple of seconds is all it takes, then rinse thoroughly with lukewarm water, and pat dry with a soft cloth. >>

Hmmm.

Of these two coins which both have been dipped, which was in the dip the longest??

Coin A

Coin B

yellowkid · March 7, 2009 12:07PM

yellowkid · March 7, 2009 12:09PM

Isn't it the same coin????

yellowkid · March 7, 2009 12:10PM

Or, the same coin before and after...

BlindedByEgo · March 7, 2009 5:37PM

<< ... if done properly... you can't tell. If dipped long ago [properly], and the coin is starting to retone... you'd never be able to tell. >>

How can you tell if it's been dipped?

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