Does the CAC become secondarily liable for a bad coin in a buy-back guarantee?

Longacre · March 3, 2009 5:15AM

We all know that the TPGs provide buyers of their slabbed coins with a buyback guarantee if it is determined that the coin turns sour in the holder, or whether a problem with the coin later comes to light.

In these trying economic times, it is hard to tell how solvent various companies are, and we all know that cash is king. The lynchpin of the coin market is the collectors' reliance on the TPGs and their ability to make good on a coin that might turn out to be a problem at a later point in time.

Does anyone know if the CAC can become secondarily liable for a buyback guarantee if the slab in question is stickered, and for whatever reason, the TPG either cannot or will not buy it back? If the TPG is in financial distress and simply cannot honor its guarantee, can the collector look to the CAC for payment for a bad coin? I doubt that this would ever happen, but I was wondering if there are any protections in place for either the TPGs or the CAC.

EagleEye · March 3, 2009 7:15AM

My understanding is that they are putting themselves as primarily liable. I mean, they are putting up buy offers for CAC coins - that's the whole idea behind the sticker.

YaHa · March 3, 2009 7:35AM

Don't know, sorry.. Check this forum at a later time.. Beep!!

Arizonadesertrat · March 3, 2009 7:36AM

Exactly---if you have a CAC-stickered coin that looks low-end, just sell it to the CAC consortium.

SanctionII · March 3, 2009 7:39AM

Interesting question.

How about you and I join forces to seek out, find, and represent a victimized collector in a test case

Contigency or hourly fees? What say you?

Barberman55 · March 3, 2009 8:00AM

<< My understanding is that they are putting themselves as primarily liable. I mean, they are putting up buy offers for CAC coins - that's the whole idea behind the sticker. >>

I wonder about a coin that turns in the holder after receiving the CAC sticker. Would CAC still purchase that coin back?

IMO, by CAC placing they're sticker on a PCGS or NGC holder, the original guarantee's of grade, authenticity, etc., should switch from the TPG service to CAC. You can't have you're cake and eat it too. If you want to make money by placing a little sticker on an already slabbed coin, then how about backing the guarantees on the coin too. I don't think that putting up buy offers for CAC coins is the same thing.

PerryHall · March 3, 2009 8:05AM

Where are their buy prices published? When you offer a CAC coin sight unseen to a CAC dealer, is the offer lower than their sight seen offer? When you offer the same CAC coin to ten different CAC dealers, will you get ten different offers? I'm just trying to figure out how this works and how it's different than non-CAC coins.

Res · March 3, 2009 8:12AM

<< 

<< My understanding is that they are putting themselves as primarily liable. I mean, they are putting up buy offers for CAC coins - that's the whole idea behind the sticker. >>

I wonder about a coin that turns in the holder after receiving the CAC sticker. Would CAC still purchase that coin back?

IMO, by CAC placing they're sticker on a PCGS or NGC holder, the original guarantee's of grade, authenticity, etc., should switch from the TPG service to CAC. You can't have you're cake and eat it too. If you want to make money by placing a little sticker on an already slabbed coin, then how about backing the guarantees on the coin too. I don't think that putting up buy offers for CAC coins is the same thing. >>

PCGS won't void their warranty because there is a green bean on the slab. Shop it around to both and see who will give you the best deal in a buy-back.

BAJJERFAN · March 3, 2009 10:44AM

I think being a CAC dealer just entitles you to submission privileges and there likely is no requirement for a dealer to pay you the same price that the consortium/JA would pay. For those of you who are PCGS dealers, are you required to pay price guide prices for coins offered to you?

Coxe · March 3, 2009 11:03AM

I believe the CAC guarantee is simply on a coin's acceptance in the market made by the CAC dealer network. In other words, a CAC dealer cannot refuse to buy or market your stickered coin according to the verified grade and its market value. That doesnot mean a half dime has to be accepted by such a dealer who exclusively deals in silver dollars or gold. It does mean that a participating dealer can't say it is overgraded and pay less or refuse it as a consignment because he thinks it has been altered. CAC guarantees are participation trust relationships for dealers on the validation integrity of JA and his enterprise.

Goldbully · March 3, 2009 11:06AM

Let'see, rock beats paper....therefore, sticker beats plastic. That's logical isn't it??

OKbustchaser · March 3, 2009 11:15AM

<< Let'see, rock beats paper....therefore, sticker beats plastic. That's logical isn't it??

>>

No, but rock beats plastic into little pieces...at least in my collection.

segoja · March 3, 2009 11:17AM

As both a PCGS dealer and CAC submission center we are NOT obligated to buy any coins at any fixed price. The market makers dictate the price they pay for coins, not others.

Obviously if there is a posted price, it behooves us to pay at or above the posted prices, depending on the coin, even a CAC coin.

AS we all know, all coins are not created equal...CAC sticker and the same PCGS grade are not all the same value.

tmot99 · March 3, 2009 11:24AM

<< As both a PCGS dealer and CAC submission center we are NOT obligated to buy any coins at any fixed price. The market makers dictate the price they pay for coins, not others.

Obviously if there is a posted price, it behooves us to pay at or above the posted prices, depending on the coin, even a CAC coin.

AS we all know, all coins are not created equal...CAC sticker and the same PCGS grade are not all the same value. >>

So what you are saying is that there is no real buy back guarantee by CAC? That's been what I've questioned from day one. As a CAC dealer, if you already had 10 CAC coins of the same exact date, MM, and grade, why would you be forced to spend your money on an 11th.

Longacre · March 3, 2009 11:31AM

Here is the scenario I was thinking of:

--Day 1: TPG slabs the coin
--Day 2: CAC stickers the coin
--Day 3: Coin is determined to be puttied
--Day 4: TPG goes out of business
--Day 5: Collector wants the coin bought back

Is the CAC obligated to make good on the TPG's original buy back guarantee?

bidask · March 3, 2009 11:38AM

<< Here is the scenario I was thinking of:

--Day 1: TPG slabs the coin
--Day 2: CAC stickers the coin
--Day 3: Coin is determined to be puttied
--Day 4: TPG goes out of business
--Day 5: Collector wants the coin bought back

Is the CAC obligated to make good on the TPG's original buy back guarantee? >>

I think they would be obligated to buy it at their exclusive CAC market bid price.

IGWT · March 3, 2009 11:38AM

Is the CAC obligated to make good on the TPG's original buy back guarantee?

Never heard such a thing.

lkeigwin · March 3, 2009 12:04PM

<< Is the CAC obligated to make good on the TPG's original buy back guarantee?

Never heard such a thing. >>

Lance.

BAJJERFAN · March 3, 2009 12:14PM

<< 

<< Here is the scenario I was thinking of:

--Day 1: TPG slabs the coin
--Day 2: CAC stickers the coin
--Day 3: Coin is determined to be puttied
--Day 4: TPG goes out of business
--Day 5: Collector wants the coin bought back

Is the CAC obligated to make good on the TPG's original buy back guarantee? >>

I think they would be obligated to buy it at their exclusive CAC market bid price. >>

I doubt that CAC is obligated to buy anything back, just cuz it has their bean on it.

BAJJERFAN · March 3, 2009 12:16PM

<< My understanding is that they are putting themselves as primarily liable. I mean, they are putting up buy offers for CAC coins - that's the whole idea behind the sticker. >>

It means that they have seen the coin and approve of it. Do you think that PCGS or NGC would buy back all of their 1881-s Morgans in ms66 for strong money sight unseen?

bidask · March 3, 2009 12:17PM

<< 

<< 

<< Here is the scenario I was thinking of:

--Day 1: TPG slabs the coin
--Day 2: CAC stickers the coin
--Day 3: Coin is determined to be puttied
--Day 4: TPG goes out of business
--Day 5: Collector wants the coin bought back

Is the CAC obligated to make good on the TPG's original buy back guarantee? >>

I think they would be obligated to buy it at their exclusive CAC market bid price. >>

I doubt that CAC is obligated to buy anything back, just cuz it has their bean on it. >>

I think JA might. Don't know for sure.

Coxe · March 3, 2009 1:03PM

CAC Guarantee

WHAT THE CAC STICKER MEANS:

• Verified. Your coin has been verified as meeting the standard for strict quality within its grade.

• Guaranteed. CAC stands behind our verification by making markets in most actively traded coins.

Vague enough for you? I'd love to hear a complete connection between Guaranteed. and CAC stands behind our verification by making markets in most actively traded coins.

How are they making this market and how is that, in any way, to be taken as a guarantee? Would make for a lovely court challenge.

BAJJERFAN · March 3, 2009 1:15PM

<< CAC Guarantee

WHAT THE CAC STICKER MEANS:

• Verified. Your coin has been verified as meeting the standard for strict quality within its grade.

• Guaranteed. CAC stands behind our verification by making markets in most actively traded coins.

Vague enough for you? I'd love to hear a complete connection between Guaranteed. and CAC stands behind our verification by making markets in most actively traded coins.

How are they making this market and how is that, in any way, to be taken as a guarantee? Would make for a lovely court challenge. >>

A lot of the stuff with a CAC sticker has no business being stickered much less slabbed. Why would CAC want to make a market in common date ms64/65 Morgans?

Doogy · March 3, 2009 1:41PM

this whole thread would have been unnecessary if the OP would have only emailed JA the question, and then reported on his answer. pretty simple.

PerryHall · March 3, 2009 7:12PM

<< I think they would be obligated to buy it at their exclusive CAC market bid price. >>

Where are these bid prices published?

clackamas · March 3, 2009 7:55PM

Personally I have not been impressed with CAC stickered coins. They have two standards, one for PCGS and one for NGC. An NGC CAC grade will not always cross. So an NGC CAC MS67 may very well be an MS66 PCGS coin. I was told that if I could cross an NGC CAC coin to PCGS it would not mean I could cross the CAC sticker ( I tried on a high end PCGS coin - it did not cross at grade), much less minus the sticker ( I was also told if I remove the sticker I may not get it back). To me its sham, certain dealers give their own coins CAC stickers and others can not. Meanwhile the majority of coins sit it collector hands without. I am not saying that some great coins are not stickered, I am saying there are two standards and they do not match, and the wiggle room seems like the grand canyon.

BAJJERFAN · March 3, 2009 9:42PM

<< Personally I have not been impressed with CAC stickered coins. They have two standards, one for PCGS and one for NGC. An NGC CAC grade will not always cross. So an NGC CAC MS67 may very well be an MS66 PCGS coin. I was told that if I could cross an NGC CAC coin to PCGS it would not mean I could cross the CAC sticker ( I tried on a high end PCGS coin - it did not cross at grade), much less minus the sticker ( I was also told if I remove the sticker I may not get it back). To me its sham, certain dealers give their own coins CAC stickers and others can not. Meanwhile the majority of coins sit it collector hands without. I am not saying that some great coins are not stickered, I am saying there are two standards and they do not match, and the wiggle room seems like the grand canyon. >>

If the cert number is in CAC's database they will resticker the slabbed coin if you send it back. In spite of the sticker I think NGC coins will have a better chance of crossing if you crack them out which then makes the edge visible. I wonder if the crossover rate will be higher for the new NGC holders.

BAJJERFAN · March 3, 2009 10:21PM

<< this whole thread would have been unnecessary if the OP would have only emailed JA the question, and then reported on his answer. pretty simple. >>

I suppose that would be true if the OP really wanted to know for himself, but seems like its just making small talk. Then again it does illustrate how underinformed or misinformed some folks are.

coinpictures · March 3, 2009 10:45PM

Ahh yes, the good ole' CAC shell game... any truth to the rumor that Bernie Madoff is one of the original founders of CAC?

Does the CAC become secondarily liable for a bad coin in a buy-back guarantee?

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