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If you buy it from the US Mint, it isn’t bullion …
SCDHunter
Posts: 686 ✭✭✭
Period.
Webster’s online dictionary defines bullion as “1. Uncoined gold or silver in the mass.”
Since the Eagles are monetized as coinage, they are not bullion.
However, PCGS defines bullion as “Slang for coins, ingots, private issue, and so on that trade below, at, or slightly above their intrinsic metal value. Only the precious metals (gold, silver, platinum, and palladium) are included as bullion. Copper cents could also technically be classed as bullion.”
Since the US Mint charges a significant premium over the intrinsic metal value for the collector version of the Eagles, they are not bullion.
Besides, why would anyone in their right mind pay additional money to have bullion graded?
Webster’s online dictionary defines bullion as “1. Uncoined gold or silver in the mass.”
Since the Eagles are monetized as coinage, they are not bullion.
However, PCGS defines bullion as “Slang for coins, ingots, private issue, and so on that trade below, at, or slightly above their intrinsic metal value. Only the precious metals (gold, silver, platinum, and palladium) are included as bullion. Copper cents could also technically be classed as bullion.”
Since the US Mint charges a significant premium over the intrinsic metal value for the collector version of the Eagles, they are not bullion.
Besides, why would anyone in their right mind pay additional money to have bullion graded?
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<< <i>Webster’s online dictionary >>
I wouldn't consider Webster's a domain expert in numismatics.
<< <i>a collectible version of the popular American Eagle Gold Bullion Coins >>
.
Re read that. A collectible version of bullion. A version of bullion.
Why are folks so threatened by the word bullion? It's not a bad word in my dictionary.
"Monetized" is a meaningless term invented by the Treasury Dept to confuse and obfuscate.
What is being purchased are "bullion coins" - pieces whose metal content is intended to exceed their nominal face value.
<< <i>"Monetized" is a meaningless term invented by the Treasury Dept to confuse and obfuscate. >>
In another thread, it's recently come up that proofs and coins sold by the US Mint may not be monetized due to lack of transfer to the correct agency for monetization. More clarification may be useful.
<< <i>From the mint: They are a
<< <i>a collectible version of the popular American Eagle Gold Bullion Coins >>
.
Re read that. A collectible version of bullion. A version of bullion.
Why are folks so threatened by the word bullion? It's not a bad word in my dictionary. >>
Because it implies a lesser value. Then again Morgans are essentially bullion, but try getting a 93-S for melt.
The only time that the word "bullion" will make a difference is if the government confiscates gold. Somehere deep in the Patriot Act (I'm still digging, I only read about it) is a little know section on the government calling in all privately owned gold. It supposedly goes into a discussion of recallable bullion and exempts antique numismatic gold. When and if I find more I will post it.
Government is the great fiction through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else. - Bastiat
<< <i>...Eagles are monetized as coinage,...
"Monetized" is a meaningless term invented by the Treasury Dept to confuse and obfuscate.
What is being purchased are "bullion coins" - pieces whose metal content is intended to exceed their nominal face value. >>
Here is a hypothetical question for you. If the value of gold fell to $20/oz how much will a $50.00 Eagle be worth?
<< <i>
<< <i>...Eagles are monetized as coinage,...
"Monetized" is a meaningless term invented by the Treasury Dept to confuse and obfuscate.
What is being purchased are "bullion coins" - pieces whose metal content is intended to exceed their nominal face value. >>
Here is a hypothetical question for you. If the value of gold fell to $20/oz how much will a $50.00 Eagle be worth?
Spend it for $50.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
The American Gold Eagle is an official gold bullion coin of the United States. Authorized under the Gold Bullion Coin Act of 1985, it was first released by the United States Mint in 1986. Offered in 1/10 oz, 1/4 oz, 1/2 oz, and 1 oz denominations, these coins are guaranteed by the U.S. government to contain the stated amount of actual gold weight in troy ounces. By law, the gold must come from sources in America, with an additional alloy of silver and copper to produce a more wear-resistant coin of .9167 (22 karat, which had long been the crown gold English standard for gold coins). It is authorized by the United States Congress and is backed by the United States Mint for weight and content.
The Gold Bullion Coin Act of 1985, Pub. L. No. 99-185, 99 Stat. 1177 (Dec. 17, 1985), codified at 31 U.S.C. § 5112(a)(7) through (a)(10), 31 U.S.C. § 5112(i), 31 U.S.C. § 5116(a)(3), and amending 31 U.S.C. § 5118(d) and 31 U.S.C. § 5132(a)(1), has helped the American Gold Eagle to quickly become one of the world's leaders in gold bullion coin. Produced from gold mined in the United States, American Eagles are imprinted with their gold content and legal tender face value.
The act was signed by Ronald Reagan in 1985. One requirement is that all gold used in minting the coins would be from "newly mined domestic sources".
<< <i>according to US Law, it is bullion
The American Gold Eagle is an official gold bullion coin of the United States. Authorized under the Gold Bullion Coin Act of 1985, it was first released by the United States Mint in 1986. Offered in 1/10 oz, 1/4 oz, 1/2 oz, and 1 oz denominations, these coins are guaranteed by the U.S. government to contain the stated amount of actual gold weight in troy ounces. By law, the gold must come from sources in America, with an additional alloy of silver and copper to produce a more wear-resistant coin of .9167 (22 karat, which had long been the crown gold English standard for gold coins). It is authorized by the United States Congress and is backed by the United States Mint for weight and content.
The Gold Bullion Coin Act of 1985, Pub. L. No. 99-185, 99 Stat. 1177 (Dec. 17, 1985), codified at 31 U.S.C. § 5112(a)(7) through (a)(10), 31 U.S.C. § 5112(i), 31 U.S.C. § 5116(a)(3), and amending 31 U.S.C. § 5118(d) and 31 U.S.C. § 5132(a)(1), has helped the American Gold Eagle to quickly become one of the world's leaders in gold bullion coin. Produced from gold mined in the United States, American Eagles are imprinted with their gold content and legal tender face value.
The act was signed by Ronald Reagan in 1985. One requirement is that all gold used in minting the coins would be from "newly mined domestic sources". >>
Actually, they are coins. Bullion isn't mentioned anywhere except as an adjective for coin.
<< <i>according to US Law, it is bullion
The American Gold Eagle is an official gold bullion coin of the United States. Authorized under the Gold Bullion Coin Act of 1985, it was first released by the United States Mint in 1986. Offered in 1/10 oz, 1/4 oz, 1/2 oz, and 1 oz denominations, these coins are guaranteed by the U.S. government to contain the stated amount of actual gold weight in troy ounces. By law, the gold must come from sources in America, with an additional alloy of silver and copper to produce a more wear-resistant coin of .9167 (22 karat, which had long been the crown gold English standard for gold coins). It is authorized by the United States Congress and is backed by the United States Mint for weight and content.
The Gold Bullion Coin Act of 1985, Pub. L. No. 99-185, 99 Stat. 1177 (Dec. 17, 1985), codified at 31 U.S.C. § 5112(a)(7) through (a)(10), 31 U.S.C. § 5112(i), 31 U.S.C. § 5116(a)(3), and amending 31 U.S.C. § 5118(d) and 31 U.S.C. § 5132(a)(1), has helped the American Gold Eagle to quickly become one of the world's leaders in gold bullion coin. Produced from gold mined in the United States, American Eagles are imprinted with their gold content and legal tender face value.
The act was signed by Ronald Reagan in 1985. One requirement is that all gold used in minting the coins would be from "newly mined domestic sources". >>
Actually, according to US Law, it is bullion coin.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>Period.
Webster’s online dictionary defines bullion as “1. Uncoined gold or silver in the mass.”
Since the Eagles are monetized as coinage, they are not bullion.
However, PCGS defines bullion as “Slang for coins, ingots, private issue, and so on that trade below, at, or slightly above their intrinsic metal value. Only the precious metals (gold, silver, platinum, and palladium) are included as bullion. Copper cents could also technically be classed as bullion.”
Since the US Mint charges a significant premium over the intrinsic metal value for the collector version of the Eagles, they are not bullion.
Besides, why would anyone in their right mind pay additional money to have bullion graded?
So guess that is why the US MInt does not make square coins. They don't want to be accused of making bullion cubes.
It is a coin in the sense that it is "coined" but not in purpose. It is produced soley for the purpose of being bullion. A collectable bullion...but bullion just the same. What the mint is trying to do is blur the lines of bullion and rare coins, so their offerings of bullion are more generally accepted by collectors of rare coins and precious metals people alike. It makes them more marketable. Regardless of this, it is still legally bullion, especially when it still trades at or near spot value.
<< <i>Krugs, Maple leafs, Mexican Peso's are all bullion and of course coined by their respective mints. It doesn't change the tale of them being bullion. Their primary value is determined by a commodity, i.e. the metal they are struck from. This is nothing at all similar to gold coins struck in the 1800's and 1900's. >>
Are you saying common date gold coins struck in the 1800s and 1900s don't have their primary value determined by a commodity, either at time of issuance or today?
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<< <i>Well we can also pass a law renaming a pig a platypus, but its still a pig and has a curly tail and not a flat one. This is nothing at all similar to gold coins struck in the 1800's and 1900's.
It's EXACTLY the same as in the 1800s and 1900s. ALL US and world gold coins had a fixed value based EXACTLY on the value of the gold bullion they contained. Bullion is NOT coin.
Until at least the 1970s, struck metal was bullion until the Coiner accepted it on behalf of the Superintendent. That is when the mint booked its profit. From then forward, it was legal money whether or not it was released by the Treasurer.
Until 1935, the mints and assay offices produced and distributed gold and silver bars to merchants as a normal course of business. These were nothing more than certified bars of bullion. After 1935, the mints and assay offices issued bullion bars for international exchange purposes and under the Bretton Woods Monetary Agreements.
Would clad coins be bullion?
<< <i>One of the main reasons they are "monetized" is counterfeiting. It makes it illegal to make and sell coins that look the same, so basically gives them a monopoly over this specific type of bullion
Also in some states, like Florida, it makes them sales tax exempt since they are legal tender.
42/92
Suck it up. It's bullion. Collectable bullion, yes, but still bullion. Why you all even care so much I don't know.
<< <i>We're back on this again?
Suck it up. It's bullion. Collectable bullion, yes, but still bullion. Why you all even care so much I don't know. >>
Actually, if you buy it from the US Mint it's probably "less bullion" than junk silver or common date gold.
The US government calls them bullion coins.
Also, the term bullion actually doesn't seem to be the issue here. It's more of a distraction from the real issue.
The real issue seems to be that some people don't want to call them coins even though US law does. We'd get off this subject faster if people would suck it up and call them coins like the legislation that authorizes them
<< <i>We're back on this again?
Suck it up. It's bullion. Collectable bullion, yes, but still bullion. Why you all even care so much I don't know. >>
I think it is important because of the real results of the viewpoint on the hobby. Look at the Red book for instance. Notice any grades in the bullion section? I see Unc and Proof. This is the result of the attitude that these coins are not worthy of a grade because they are "just bullion". Now look at the Kennedy Halfs, another coin that does not circulate. I see MS63 and 65. Yes, it is the Red Book and there are others but I suspect many in the hobby only consult a Red Book and this creates a dead zone in an area where there could be a lot of fun.
<< <i>We're back on this again?
Suck it up. It's bullion. Collectable bullion, yes, but still bullion. Why you all even care so much I don't know. >>
It's not quite that simple. If gold were to return to $20/oz, how much is a $50 Eagle worth?
For some of us, the distinction between the two is very important! My wife tolerates my coin collecting. She might not tolerate me buying bullion!
<< <i>It's not quite that simple. If gold were to return to $20/oz, how much is a $50 Eagle worth?
Hmmmm. $50? Was this a trick question?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>
<< <i>It's not quite that simple. If gold were to return to $20/oz, how much is a $50 Eagle worth?
Hmmmm. $50? Was this a trick question? >>
It wasn't intended to be.
$50 would be my answer. Unless the government de-monetizes it – then it would just be bullion, worth $20.
Edited to correct typo.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>It's not quite that simple. If gold were to return to $20/oz, how much is a $50 Eagle worth?
Hmmmm. $50? Was this a trick question? >>
It wasn't intended to be.
$50 would be my answer. Unless the government de-monetizes it – then it would just be bullion, worth $20. >>
Why would they single out AGE's for demonitization and not paper money?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>It's not quite that simple. If gold were to return to $20/oz, how much is a $50 Eagle worth?
Hmmmm. $50? Was this a trick question? >>
It wasn't intended to be.
$50 would be my answer. Unless the government de-monetizes it – then it would just be bullion, worth $20. >>
Why would they single out AGE's for demonitization and not paper money? >>
Did they demonitize paper money in 1933, when they demonitized gold coins?
We don't get this esoteric over there, we just stick to arguments on Technical Analysis, pros and cons of owning 90% Silver vs. 99% Bars in a civil war, etc.
<< <i>TAKE IT TO THE PM FORUM.
THATS ONLY FOR BULLION. WERE TALKING MODERN GOLD AND SILVER COINS HERE.
Never have bought from the mint so it is bullion! If someone starts selling the stuff at face value maybe the mind set will change.
Ken
<< <i>TAKE IT TO THE PM FORUM.
Ah! Spoken like you've never started a UHR thread!
Are "proof" bullion coins bullion?
By the way, I've never used the word "bullion" so many times in just three sentences.
bullion bullion bullion! There's something therapeutic about that word.
<< <i>So how would we classify "proof" bullion? Proofs seem to command little or no premium when compared to their "uncirculated bullion" counterparts.
Are "proof" bullion coins bullion?
By the way, I've never used the word "bullion" so many times in just three sentences.
bullion bullion bullion! There's something therapeutic about that word. >>
That is answered in one of the Mint's Frequently Asked Questions
You’ll note that nowhere do they refer to proof or uncirculated Eagles as bullion, but rather as coins. In fact, they explain that the “W” mintmark was added to distinguish them from the bullion version.
Wait,
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