Anybody with a clear idea of how to get the .5 bump?

lightningboy · February 17, 2009 1:06PM

I read somewhere recently that the main criteria for the .5 bump had to do with how well a card was centered within its specific grade. More precisely, a card that had centering of at least 5% better than the centering requirements for that grade. Does that mean an 8.5 would be centered about 60/40 or better instead of the allowed 65/35 and a 6.5 would be 70/30 instead of the allowed 75/25 etc.? Or as others have put it, you need pretty much perfect centering no matter what the grade.

I can't bring up this link, but how did ebay item# 380072847106 receive the .5 bump?

I am getting ready to send in a handful of cards for the first time looking for the bump. Any info. would be appreciated.

perkdog · February 17, 2009 1:07PM

I am 99% sure Ive got the answer.........

Luck?

Morgoth · February 17, 2009 1:10PM

Centering is overrated, you need 1 grade higher corners IMO first before you need it centered. Example if you have card that is an 8 with mint 9 corners but maybe has a print defect, slight oc or another small defect it would get a 8.5 more often than a perfectly centered card with a noticeablly dinged corner.

Elemenopeo · February 17, 2009 1:11PM

Early on, PSA said centering had a lot to do with it... but I'm just not seeing that at all. I see a lot of .5s on which the centering plain 'ol sucks.

Morgoth · February 17, 2009 1:19PM

There has been alot of dealer talk about moving back to the old "pack fresh" Mint standard, where when a card comes out of the pack it is basically mint (can't control how it's been cut or print defects but thats what qualifiers are for) but dingged corners, edges etc are things done (normally) after opening that drop the card from Mint status. What you are seeing is some cards that were perfect but slightly OC enough to be not given the 9 but getting the 8.5 due to their pack fresh albeit oc look. People with perfectly centered cards but obviously had been handled enough to get a dinged edge or corner are getting disappointing 0.5 bumps due to their cards having "obvious" secondary defects.

Luck also has alot do do with it as graders view certain defects differently as far as how much they impact overall grade. However, the subjective "eye appeal" has alot to with centering and overlooking obvious defects because of centering has become a point of contention with certain collectors.

diamondman · February 17, 2009 2:34PM

Anybody with a clear idea of how to get the .5 bump? yes

Rule # 1 SEND more money!
Rule # 2 (make sure you send a bonus/tip)
Rule # 3 When in doubt (send more money)
Rule # 4 Always refer to rules 1-3

bigreddog · February 17, 2009 2:40PM

Rule #5 Save your money its a scam

storm888 · February 17, 2009 3:51PM

"...There has been alot of dealer talk about moving back to the old "pack fresh" Mint standard, where when a card comes out of the pack it is basically mint (can't control how it's been cut or print defects but thats what qualifiers are for) but dingged corners, edges etc are things done (normally) after opening that drop the card from Mint status. What you are seeing is some cards that were perfect but slightly OC enough to be not given the 9 but getting the 8.5 due to their pack fresh albeit oc look. ..."

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That's interesting - and might be fair and true - but it would not cut it for me.

The word "mint" is what throws everything about card grading
into a wonderland of confusion.

Coins have somehow managed to leave the "mint" concept in
the mix without the confusion.

In stamps, the word "mint" is often used by novices to describe
condition/appearance, but to real stamp-guys it just means "postally
unused." It does NOT define the appearance of the stamp.

..................
.......................

Here are some excerpts from PSE on stamp grading, that if applied
to cards, would eventually end much of the controversy over consistent
grading:

A number of diverse factors come into play when determining the grade of a stamp, and any system that compresses these factors into a single numerical (or adjectival) grade is necessarily complex. However, such challenges are not unique to stamps.

The grading of sportscards attempts to balance such diverse attributes as edges, corners, surfaces, centering and registration quality, all of which must be weighed to arrive at a single, numerical grade. Similarly, rare coins have attributes such as strike, surface preservation (marks, scratches), luster, and toning (eye appeal), all of which must be considered when determining a final grade. Difficult? Yes. Controversial? At times. Impossible? No.

The grade of a stamp has two principal components:

Soundness (the presence or absence of faults) and Centering the balance among the four margins)

This concept of combining soundness and centering is the heart of the PSE grading system. For faultless stamps, the final grade is, in most cases, the same as the centering grade. For stamps with faults, the PSE Grading System is an attempt to model the value that the real world places on stamps which have some faults.

A third component, Eye Appeal (color, impression, cancellation) allows room for some adjustment after the basic grade is determined.

Finally, for mint (unused) stamps, a notation is made of the gum condition. That notation follows the grade of the stamp, and is not a factor in determining the basic grade. It does however, play a major role in determining the fair market value of a stamp.

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Then the stamp boys explain "centering."

Gem
Four visually equal margins. Even after a careful examination, it will be impossible to pick a margin smaller than the other three.

Superb
A Superb stamp will be extremely well centered, and it may take up to ten seconds to ascertain that the stamp is not perfectly centered. One side may be very slightly smaller than its opposite, though certainly not apparent unless the stamp is carefully studied.

XF-Superb
A stamp of this grade will be very well centered, and at first glance will appear very nearly perfect. It will typically require a few seconds of examination to determine which margin is slightly smaller than the others.

Extremely Fine
The stamp will be well centered, though a brief examination will reveal that the stamp is slightly off center. All four margins will be generous in size for the issue.

VF-XF
A Very Fine to Extremely Fine stamp will appear slightly off center in one or two directions at first glance, but will unquestionably be better centered than most examples. The margins will be full with room to spare.

Very Fine
A Very Fine stamp will be off center on one or two sides, but the framelines will not be close to the edge on any side. All four margins will be unquestionably full, and well clear of the perforations.

Fine-Very Fine
The stamp is noticeably off center with one or two sides significantly closer to the edge than the opposite side. But there is no question that there is white space between the frameline and the perforations.

Fine
A stamp that is quite off center on one or two sides with the edge of the design approaching the perforations. While close, the frameline cannot be touching the perfs. Some white space must be visible, though it may be very narrow.

Very Good
The edge of the frameline just touches the perfs on one side, but the perfs do not cut into the design.

Good
The perforations cut into the design, and some portion of the design is lost.

Very Poorly Centered Stamps
Stamps with exceptionally poor centering, where a significant portion of the design is lost and the perforations cut deeply into the stamp cross into the "freaks and oddities" area, and may actually begin to enjoy increased demand and value from collectors who value such anomalies.

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So, the point of all that is that to toss out "centering" and "print
defects" as KEY determinants in a card's grade flys in the face of
the earliest methods of "grading" PAPER COLLECTIBLES............ Stamp Grading Protocol.

Currency grading employs methods - though often liberalized based on the population
scarcity of "original/unaltered" material and other factors - that are very similar to those
used in stamp grading.

Card grading has attempted to create a hybrid system that adopts some/many
elements of other paper-collectible grading. It's not wholly staisfactory largely
because the word "MINT" throws people off the trail of what is REALLY important
in deciding which cards are closest to "perfect;" which cards are REALLY "GEM."

........................

Sellers may well prefer the use of the word "MINT" to describe "pack fresh" cards,
but collectors who buy into the concept would be screwed by history when it came
time to sell those cards.

Card grading will evolve MUCH further and it will end up much like stamp grading
did. "GEM" will mean perfection and "MINT" will not mean jack.

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My favorite excerpt from PCGS currency can be related to cards, too:

"...Many estimates of the numbers of large size type notes that have been restored in some fashion or another run so high that the supply of truly original notes might be so low as to preclude their collectibilty...."

Now, imagine sending a card in that had been "restored in some fashion"
and getting it back in a number-graded holder.

Morgoth · February 17, 2009 4:29PM

Centering is not thrown out in this case as there are defined centering guidelines for each grade and the card must meet the minimums for it to achieve a certain grade. What they are saying is that before the questionable use of "eye appeal" would override a defect that occured after the pack was opened such as a dinged corner. SOME collectors and dealers did not like this arbitrary way of grading (alot of the time it focused on the centering or brightness of the card to override a glaring front to back corner ding for example).

When a card is reviewed for a bump it already is a given it qualifies for example a PSA 8 or whatever centering. The question is does it qualify for higher than that? It appears that perfect centering is not good enough alone to get a bump, you need mint 9 corners as well. If you had to choose one or the other, PSA 8 centering with PSA 9 corners gets you a 8.5 more often than PSA 8 corners with PSA 9 centering, make sense?

I don't think card guys will adopt new terminology in my lifetime. PSA's system is pretty much the standard now and it would take something to get people to adopt new phrasing of grades. Removing Mint from a grade name seems pointless when everyone has agreed on what it means just because it lines up with stamp collecting better. BTW any word on when stamps will gain any value back, my wife has a nice collection.

storm888 · February 17, 2009 5:07PM

"...BTW any word on when stamps will gain any value back, my wife has a nice collection. ..."

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Nope, I dunno if/when.

ONLY the best of the best have any real value.

High catalog-prices are the only thing that props-up the ordinary stuff at all.

VERY sad.

mtcards · February 18, 2009 1:37AM

The half point thing with PSA is a bunch of marketing nonsense. Like the rest of graded cards, it is pot luck. Virtually every card I sent in is almost perfectly centered, otherwise I wont send it in at all in the first place and out of my last 150 cards sent in, I have had ONE half point bump, this on a 2001 Tiger Woods UD Rookie....a borderless card.

I think they throw out a few halves every now and then to get the resubmitters excited and in fact if you look at some of the advertising they have been doing lately, PSA plays up the increased value from a half point upgrade. From a business standpoint, its a heck of a smart idea. From a card grading standpoint, its stupid and has no consistency at all.

digicat · February 18, 2009 3:34AM

<< <i>There has been alot of dealer talk about moving back to the old "pack fresh" Mint standard >>

If you took 2 "pack fresh" cards, both with perfect corners, edges, registration, but one has 50/50 centering while the other has 60/40 centering, enough collectors will pay more for the perfectly centered card than they will for the 60/40 centered card that any dealer will not consider both cards to be equal.

Robby · February 18, 2009 3:55AM

Order #20272126 / Submission #655866
Line # Item # Cert # Grade Description Type Country
NEAR MINT-MINT+ 8.5 1964 TOPPS 547 GIL HODGES Card US
NEAR MINT-MINT+ 8.5 1964 TOPPS 540 LUIS APARICIO Card US
NEAR MINT-MINT+ 8.5 1964 TOPPS 476 BRAVES ROOKIES R.CARTY/D.KELLEY Card US
NEAR MINT-MINT 8 1964 TOPPS 182 SOX SOCKERS YASTRZEMSKI/SCHILLING Card US ( No Bump )
NEAR MINT-MINT+ 8.5 1964 TOPPS 177 HARMON KILLEBREW Card US
NEAR MINT-MINT+ 8.5 1964 TOPPS 170 DICK RADATZ Card US
NEAR MINT-MINT 8 1964 TOPPS 150 WILLIE MAYS Card US ( No Bump )
NEAR MINT-MINT 8 1964 TOPPS 98 BILL BRUTON Card US ( No Bump )
NEAR MINT-MINT 8 1964 TOPPS 91 BOB BAILEY Card US ( No Bump )
MINT 9 1964 TOPPS 59 ERNIE BROGLIO Card US ( Full Grade Bump )
NEAR MINT-MINT 8 1964 TOPPS 55 ERNIE BANKS Card US ( No Bump )
NEAR MINT-MINT+ 8.5 1964 TOPPS 36 HAL RENIFF Card US
Total Items: 12
Date Received: 2/5/2009
Date Shipped: 2/16/2009
Order Status: Shipped

Sent these cards in with my free grading vouchers for renewing recently ( by the way , the book is fantastic and well worth the renewal fee/grading vouchers and access to the online pops ) ! I submitted only the nicest low pops and star cards I could ! Out of 12 cards , only 7 bumped ! Naturally the high dollar cards ( Banks , Mays , Sox Sockers did not get the bumps ) . Another day and a different grader , maybe the other 5 get a bump ! Very happy with the Killebrew ( pop of ( 3 ) 8.5's and ( 10 ) 9's ......... Reniff-Yankee ( 2 ) 8.5's and ( 3 ) 9's .......... Radatz-Boston ( 1 ) 8.5 and ( 5 ) 9's ......Aparicio ( 3 ) 8.5's and ( 7 ) 9's and the Hodges ( 2 ) 8.5's and ( 11 ) 9's ............. The Full bump card - Broglio-Cardinals - ( 5 ) 9's

As Morgoth said , the key is to pick out only cards with mint 9 corners that have decent centering and you have a chance for the bump ! Other factors are considered also into it , but to me that is the main recipe for getting the bumps ! I was hoping for at least 10 out of 12 , so it 's still a crapshoot depending on what the grader is looking for ! I'll give the #91 Bailey and #98 Bruton another shot , as I thought they were sure fire bumps ! I'm not sure about this , but I thought I read on a previous thread that they give you an explanation about why a card did not bump ? Have not gotten my cards back yet , so I will find out then !

As far as trying for a 4.5 - 5.5 - 6.5 -7.5 etc. , I think thats another whole new ballgame , but I would think centering would be more important then !
Dave ' Robbie " Robinson

Morgoth · February 18, 2009 4:04AM

<< <i>If you took 2 "pack fresh" cards, both with perfect corners, edges, registration, but one has 50/50 centering while the other has 60/40 centering, enough collectors will pay more for the perfectly centered card than they will for the 60/40 centered card that any dealer will not consider both cards to be equal >>

That is not the situation I am talking about. It is pretty much a given if 2 cards have all the same characteristics but one is centered better 100% of collectors would choose it or pay more for it (well some won't I gurantee).

What I am talking about is 2 cards with the same grade, 1 has close to 50/50 centering but a noticeable dinged corner or edge ding. The other is 55/45 but has mint corners and maybe a slight edge ding. PSA has been giving the 2nd card the 0.5 bump more than the prior. Even if you argue that "eye appeal" will make card 1 worth more, it doesn't change how often it will get bumped.

KbKards · February 18, 2009 4:22AM

"What I am talking about is 2 cards with the same grade, 1 has close to 50/50 centering but a noticeable dinged corner or edge ding. The other is 55/45 but has mint corners and maybe a slight edge ding. PSA has been giving the 2nd card the 0.5 bump more than the prior. Even if you argue that "eye appeal" will make card 1 worth more, it doesn't change how often it will get bumped."

Your argument makes no sense. By your description the second card sounds nicer than the first card. A noticeable dinged corner is a condition defect that a lot of people won't like. So PSA should not bump the first card. To me the second card sounds nicer and would be worth the bump.

mtcards · February 18, 2009 5:03AM

That is the problem with half points. There is no clear definition on what creates a bump. Grading is very subjective in the first place, but now they are throwing in even more subjectivity on the half grade bumps. "Eye appeal" is in the eye of the beholder anyway. A corner ding with great everything else in some peoples eye is better than a card that is off center, but perfect everywhere else.

digicat · February 18, 2009 5:25AM

<< <i>There has been alot of dealer talk about moving back to the old "pack fresh" Mint standard, >>

What does this even mean then? That dealers are going to be teaming up and asking PSA to revise their grading standards?

jim70mustang · February 18, 2009 9:20AM

Perkdog....Great answer and how true.

Anybody with a clear idea of how to get the .5 bump?

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