Thanks for the citation. I'm working w/ Dave on a new book, I'll see if he has access to copy. If this account is really 43/min, it is at odds with the Mint records. It will be interesting to see the source. BTW, are you Brad K?
Mike & Bill,
The Mint records show that they were using solid steel. Prior to 1799, they used blister steel. 1799 - 1800, they experimented with blister, German and cast steel. The records do not indicate when then ran out of each so some of the lesser blister and German could be as late as 05. 1801 on, they purchased only cast steel. Cast steel has its own forging issues so this is likely the reason for failures. It took Eckfeldt a while to figure it out (records show that Boulton had the same probs). Forge-welding steel to a cast iron body is the old method from circa 1600 - early 1700s. It is suitable for certain applications (like wood chisels) but does not hold up well under hi impact.
Only the cent press (and possibly the half cent/small coin press) had the springboard and check-chain. The half dollar presses (2) were a 3/4 man and 5 man press. The large press (5 man) was also used for dollars and hubbing. I doubt they used 2 presses prior to the big mintages in the later 1820s. They certainly used both in the mid-1830s as Patterson stated so.
I published this info in both PW and JRCS, and also the Breen LC book. Cooper is also a good ref.
Bill N got the vars right for the 06 die. I couldn't remember off the top. Got tied up on the new book and forgot this.
I also do not agree in calc of original mintages from survivors. There are too many variables. In fact, we don't even know that we have examples of all that was struck. The occasional discovery of a new var casts serious doubt.
<< <i>In fact, we don't even know that we have examples of all that was struck. The occasional discovery of a new var casts serious doubt. >>
This possibility is what started me thinking about this subject. Even if no more new die marriages are discovered, there is a likelihood that all examples of one or more were lost.
The entire paragraph re: the mint visit: "I and Mr. Fisk left the company at the gate and went to see the United States Mint. There they were, striking off half dollars in one room, and cents in another. The other part of the works were not in operation. I enquired how many half dollars they struck off in a minute, and they said 43. The pieces of silver were plated out and cut to the right size previously, so that they were only given the impression. It took three men to do this: all of them had hold of the machine at a time, and it appeared to be pretty hard labor."
This was taken from The Granite Monthly, Nov. 1881. "The Hon. George Stark contributed an account from the 1828 journal of one his forebears" from The Coin Collector.
Thanks for the neat citation. Sounds real as the statement of 3 men corresponds to the "half dollar" press. This was slightly smaller than the "dollar" press and was operated by 3 men on the fly arm and one man keeping the feed tube filled with planchets and removing the basket of struck coin as it filled. The statement also has the press arrangement correct with the cent press in another room.
BTW, another issue with calc of original mintage is that survivorship is not necessarily similar across all vars. HDs are a real prob since they were heavily exported as silver. So, if one var was exported while another ended up as bank specie and survived, then the coin that is R6 today may well have been dirt common when it was struck and the "common" one today actually one of the least common when struck. No way to tell.
BTW, another issue with calc of original mintage is that survivorship is not necessarily similar across all vars. HDs are a real prob since they were heavily exported as silver. So, if one var was exported while another ended up as bank specie and survived, then the coin that is R6 today may well have been dirt common when it was struck and the "common" one today actually one of the least common when struck. No way to tell.
That is an interesting way to look at it...I had never thought about it in those terms.
Do we really know how much the Half Dollar denomination was exported prior to 1804? I am sure that it did happen after that date, when the Half Dollar became the largest silver denomination struck, but do we have any documentation for it occurring and to what degree?
QN
Go to Early United States Coins - to order the New "Early United States Half Dollar Vol. 1 / 1794-1807" book or the 1st new Bust Quarter book!
This was taken from The Granite Monthly, Nov. 1881. "The Hon. George Stark contributed an account from the 1828 journal of one his forebears" from The Coin Collector.
So does this mean that the event being described actually took place in 1828? If so, there may have been many differences in the striking ability and quantity per hour over that found in 1805. Not saying it could be a lot, just different.
QN
Go to Early United States Coins - to order the New "Early United States Half Dollar Vol. 1 / 1794-1807" book or the 1st new Bust Quarter book!
Does anyone happen to know when the Mint used (or Adam Eckfeldt made) the first hollow steel screws in a coin press, instead of the earlier wooden screws?
PM me if you are looking for U.S. auction catalogs
The Mint only purchased one additional press from 1795 - 1827, so the presses were largely the same. They simply replaced the screws, screw nuts and other parts. There are MANY records in the Mint account books for screws and nuts for the presses as they were the major wear parts of the press. So, while I do need to check the number against other recs, for the time being my feeling is it's good.
Karl, Neither the US nor any other mint used wood screws in a screw coining press. They were either solid brass or iron. Wood does not have the requisite tensile, compressional, shear strength or wear resistance. The presses with wood screws were for agricultural use.
Images of the other currently known terminal states of 1805 half dollars. There are no obvious terminal states for O.106, O.107, O.108 and O.114. But O.109 ended with a reverse cud-
O.110, which was actually the 4th use of Overton's obverse 7, ended with the rim beginning to crumble-
Still not comfortable with the coins/minute numbers – they simply don’t seem realistic given the mechanics of equipment.
Samuel Pepys’ journal (March 1663) mentions production of 16,000-24,000 pounds sterling per week, or about 48,000 crown-sized pieces per week for the entire Royal Mint. (48,000/6 days=8,000 divided by 10 hours /day = 800/hr divided by 60 minutes = 13/minute. Adding 50% for safety we still get about 20 coins per minute.) The book The Big Problem of Small Change notes that Matthew Boulton’s steam powered presses could strike 70-80 coins per minute. A steam driven Uhlhorn-type press (knuckle press) could strike approximately 100 coins per minute.
Do we have any first, or second-hand production quantities for the Philadelphia Mint? There must be some documents stating "We started striking filberts on Tuesday last and completed ump-teen hundred by yesterday," or something equivalent.
<< <i>Still not comfortable with the coins/minute numbers – they simply don’t seem realistic given the mechanics of equipment.
Samuel Pepys’ journal (March 1663) mentions production of 16,000-24,000 pounds sterling per week, or about 48,000 crown-sized pieces per week for the entire Royal Mint. (48,000/6 days=8,000 divided by 10 hours /day = 800/hr divided by 60 minutes = 13/minute. Adding 50% for safety we still get about 20 coins per minute.) The book The Big Problem of Small Change notes that Matthew Boulton’s steam powered presses could strike 70-80 coins per minute. A steam driven Uhlhorn-type press (knuckle press) could strike approximately 100 coins per minute.
Do we have any first, or second-hand production quantities for the Philadelphia Mint? There must be some documents stating "We started striking filberts on Tuesday last and completed ump-teen hundred by yesterday," or something equivalent. >>
As a small added note, on July 4, 1810, the director of the Imperial Russian Mint at St. Petersburg informed a visitor that the Boulton press then striking silver roubles averaged between 60 and 70 pieces per minute. The Boulton presses had first been used at St. Petersburg in 1807. The visitor was John Quincy Adams, the Minister (Ambassador) from the United States to Russia, 1809–1814.
I have nothing to add concerning press output but have a question for denga, RWB and Rittenhouse- how well searched are the mint records from this era? Is there a chance for significant discoveries or has it all been sifted through?
Just a clarification on the hollow screws, which were used to bring gold from South America to the U S Mint in Philadelphia.
When the scrap iron of the first Mint was being gathered and sold in 1832, George Sellers and Adam Eckfeldt had a conversation about how they had safely imported some $150,000 worth of South American gold for coining into American coinage. It was secretly placed inside the hollowed out metal screws. Ref. Sellers book, p.35.
These hollowed out screws were filled with mercury in the States and sent to the gold mines in SA. They may have never been used for striking coins, but they did serve a bigger purpose. I was wondering when they were first made, as it may directly relate to American gold coinage production (rather than recorded bullion deposits) before the Georgia strike in the 1820s.
On the wood screws, I seem to recall that Albion Cox had mentioned that one of the small presses belonging to John Harper (in the 1780s) needed a new wood screw, but I'm not able to find the citation, so maybe it wasn't wood after all. It's not that important.
PM me if you are looking for U.S. auction catalogs
The silver account book is missing but you can use the Waste Books to get a rough idea of what was going on. I did this and came up with a VERY rough estimate of 25 - 35/min for the halfs in the late 1820s - 30s. This fits with the 1835 Peale notation that the French mint was doing 5 Francs 30 - 35/min, but then these were lettered edge using the virole brise so that slowed things a bit. It also fits Boudinot's statement of around 14K cents per day. I use a 13 hour work day minus 2 hours for breakfast and lunch per the Mint records. That yields an eleven hour day but there's also a 1 hour clean up according to some records so use 10. That gives an average of 23/min for 10 hours. The Cent press was operated by one man per Sellers description so it was probably slower than the multiple man presses. In sum, 43/min is not unreasonable for a short-term striking rate not including clearing jams, etc. Will we ever know exactly how many they struck per day? Absent a Mint record, no.
Brad,
Julian and I have been thru the records pretty thoroughly. You're always welcome to look tho. We may have missed something. I keep coming up with stuff every time I look. But be aware that the records are fragmentary. We do not have everything they wrote. The picture is thus incomplete.
Rittenhouse: In sum, 43/min is not unreasonable for a short-term striking rate not including clearing jams, etc.
Thanks for the added information. My personal preference is to accept the lower quantity of 20-23 per minute on average. While a “burst” productivity of 43 might have been possible, it is unrealistic to use that value when estimating actual production.
(I.e.: My Toyota Camry gets 55mpg on I-495 if I start the mpg measurement after I’m already at highway speed. If, however, I measure mpg from trip start to finish – stop to stop – I get about 30mpg. Which is the better representation of my overall fuel usage?)
Not to be contradictory... but when Sellers was a boy and made a Cent, he mentions that Adam Eckfeldt told the other men (swing arm operators) who were leaving (for lunch) to wait a moment. This can be found on pgs. 63-64 in the Sellers book.
I doubt that any press at the U.S. Mint was operated by one man (or woman) until the steam presses were operational after 1836.
PM me if you are looking for U.S. auction catalogs
Comments
<< <i>Just a post to say that lots of us are quietly enjoying the discussion. >>
I agree.
It doesn't get much better than this.
Thanks for the citation. I'm working w/ Dave on a new book, I'll see if he has access to copy. If this account is really 43/min, it is at odds with the Mint records. It will be interesting to see the source. BTW, are you Brad K?
Mike & Bill,
The Mint records show that they were using solid steel. Prior to 1799, they used blister steel. 1799 - 1800, they experimented with blister, German and cast steel. The records do not indicate when then ran out of each so some of the lesser blister and German could be as late as 05. 1801 on, they purchased only cast steel. Cast steel has its own forging issues so this is likely the reason for failures. It took Eckfeldt a while to figure it out (records show that Boulton had the same probs). Forge-welding steel to a cast iron body is the old method from circa 1600 - early 1700s. It is suitable for certain applications (like wood chisels) but does not hold up well under hi impact.
Only the cent press (and possibly the half cent/small coin press) had the springboard and check-chain. The half dollar presses (2) were a 3/4 man and 5 man press. The large press (5 man) was also used for dollars and hubbing. I doubt they used 2 presses prior to the big mintages in the later 1820s. They certainly used both in the mid-1830s as Patterson stated so.
I published this info in both PW and JRCS, and also the Breen LC book. Cooper is also a good ref.
Bill N got the vars right for the 06 die. I couldn't remember off the top. Got tied up on the new book and forgot this.
I also do not agree in calc of original mintages from survivors. There are too many variables. In fact, we don't even know that we have examples of all that was struck. The occasional discovery of a new var casts serious doubt.
<< <i>In fact, we don't even know that we have examples of all that was struck. The occasional discovery of a new var casts serious doubt. >>
This possibility is what started me thinking about this subject. Even if no more new die marriages are discovered, there is a likelihood that all examples of one or more were lost.
The entire paragraph re: the mint visit: "I and Mr. Fisk left the company at the gate and went to see the United States Mint. There they were, striking off half dollars in one room, and cents in another. The other part of the works were not in operation. I enquired how many half dollars they struck off in a minute, and they said 43. The pieces of silver were plated out and cut to the right size previously, so that they were only given the impression. It took three men to do this: all of them had hold of the machine at a time, and it appeared to be pretty hard labor."
This was taken from The Granite Monthly, Nov. 1881. "The Hon. George Stark contributed an account from the 1828 journal of one his forebears" from The Coin Collector.
No, I'm not Brad K.
Thanks for the neat citation. Sounds real as the statement of 3 men corresponds to the "half dollar" press. This was slightly smaller than the "dollar" press and was operated by 3 men on the fly arm and one man keeping the feed tube filled with planchets and removing the basket of struck coin as it filled. The statement also has the press arrangement correct with the cent press in another room.
BTW, another issue with calc of original mintage is that survivorship is not necessarily similar across all vars. HDs are a real prob since they were heavily exported as silver. So, if one var was exported while another ended up as bank specie and survived, then the coin that is R6 today may well have been dirt common when it was struck and the "common" one today actually one of the least common when struck. No way to tell.
That is an interesting way to look at it...I had never thought about it in those terms.
Do we really know how much the Half Dollar denomination was exported prior to 1804? I am sure that it did happen after that date, when the Half Dollar became the largest silver denomination struck, but do we have any documentation for it occurring and to what degree?
QN
Go to Early United States Coins - to order the New "Early United States Half Dollar Vol. 1 / 1794-1807" book or the 1st new Bust Quarter book!
So does this mean that the event being described actually took place in 1828? If so, there may have been many differences in the striking ability and quantity per hour over that found in 1805. Not saying it could be a lot, just different.
QN
Go to Early United States Coins - to order the New "Early United States Half Dollar Vol. 1 / 1794-1807" book or the 1st new Bust Quarter book!
The Mint only purchased one additional press from 1795 - 1827, so the presses were largely the same. They simply replaced the screws, screw nuts and other parts. There are MANY records in the Mint account books for screws and nuts for the presses as they were the major wear parts of the press. So, while I do need to check the number against other recs, for the time being my feeling is it's good.
Karl, Neither the US nor any other mint used wood screws in a screw coining press. They were either solid brass or iron. Wood does not have the requisite tensile, compressional, shear strength or wear resistance. The presses with wood screws were for agricultural use.
O.110, which was actually the 4th use of Overton's obverse 7, ended with the rim beginning to crumble-
O.111 ended with the reverse cracking up-
O.112 ended with a reverse cud-
And O.113 ended with a reverse cud-
Samuel Pepys’ journal (March 1663) mentions production of 16,000-24,000 pounds sterling per week, or about 48,000 crown-sized pieces per week for the entire Royal Mint. (48,000/6 days=8,000 divided by 10 hours /day = 800/hr divided by 60 minutes = 13/minute. Adding 50% for safety we still get about 20 coins per minute.) The book The Big Problem of Small Change notes that Matthew Boulton’s steam powered presses could strike 70-80 coins per minute. A steam driven Uhlhorn-type press (knuckle press) could strike approximately 100 coins per minute.
Do we have any first, or second-hand production quantities for the Philadelphia Mint? There must be some documents stating "We started striking filberts on Tuesday last and completed ump-teen hundred by yesterday," or something equivalent.
<< <i>Still not comfortable with the coins/minute numbers – they simply don’t seem realistic given the mechanics of equipment.
Samuel Pepys’ journal (March 1663) mentions production of 16,000-24,000 pounds sterling per week, or about 48,000 crown-sized pieces per week for the entire Royal Mint. (48,000/6 days=8,000 divided by 10 hours /day = 800/hr divided by 60 minutes = 13/minute. Adding 50% for safety we still get about 20 coins per minute.) The book The Big Problem of Small Change notes that Matthew Boulton’s steam powered presses could strike 70-80 coins per minute. A steam driven Uhlhorn-type press (knuckle press) could strike approximately 100 coins per minute.
Do we have any first, or second-hand production quantities for the Philadelphia Mint? There must be some documents stating "We started striking filberts on Tuesday last and completed ump-teen hundred by yesterday," or something equivalent. >>
As a small added note, on July 4, 1810, the director of the Imperial Russian Mint at St. Petersburg
informed a visitor that the Boulton press then striking silver roubles averaged between 60 and 70
pieces per minute. The Boulton presses had first been used at St. Petersburg in 1807. The visitor
was John Quincy Adams, the Minister (Ambassador) from the United States to Russia, 1809–1814.
Denga
When the scrap iron of the first Mint was being gathered and sold in 1832, George Sellers and Adam Eckfeldt had a conversation about how they had safely imported some $150,000 worth of South American gold for coining into American coinage. It was secretly placed inside the hollowed out metal screws. Ref. Sellers book, p.35.
These hollowed out screws were filled with mercury in the States and sent to the gold mines in SA. They may have never been used for striking coins, but they did serve a bigger purpose. I was wondering when they were first made, as it may directly relate to American gold coinage production (rather than recorded bullion deposits) before the Georgia strike in the 1820s.
On the wood screws, I seem to recall that Albion Cox had mentioned that one of the small presses belonging to John Harper (in the 1780s) needed a new wood screw, but I'm not able to find the citation, so maybe it wasn't wood after all. It's not that important.
The silver account book is missing but you can use the Waste Books to get a rough idea of what was going on. I did this and came up with a VERY rough estimate of 25 - 35/min for the halfs in the late 1820s - 30s. This fits with the 1835 Peale notation that the French mint was doing 5 Francs 30 - 35/min, but then these were lettered edge using the virole brise so that slowed things a bit. It also fits Boudinot's statement of around 14K cents per day. I use a 13 hour work day minus 2 hours for breakfast and lunch per the Mint records. That yields an eleven hour day but there's also a 1 hour clean up according to some records so use 10. That gives an average of 23/min for 10 hours. The Cent press was operated by one man per Sellers description so it was probably slower than the multiple man presses. In sum, 43/min is not unreasonable for a short-term striking rate not including clearing jams, etc. Will we ever know exactly how many they struck per day? Absent a Mint record, no.
Brad,
Julian and I have been thru the records pretty thoroughly. You're always welcome to look tho. We may have missed something. I keep coming up with stuff every time I look. But be aware that the records are fragmentary. We do not have everything they wrote. The picture is thus incomplete.
In sum, 43/min is not unreasonable for a short-term striking rate not including clearing jams, etc.
Thanks for the added information. My personal preference is to accept the lower quantity of 20-23 per minute on average. While a “burst” productivity of 43 might have been possible, it is unrealistic to use that value when estimating actual production.
(I.e.: My Toyota Camry gets 55mpg on I-495 if I start the mpg measurement after I’m already at highway speed. If, however, I measure mpg from trip start to finish – stop to stop – I get about 30mpg. Which is the better representation of my overall fuel usage?)
I doubt that any press at the U.S. Mint was operated by one man (or woman) until the steam presses were operational after 1836.