I am disgusted by the game-long full court press. That is not a tactic that needs to be used when up by 50 or 70 points, play a 2-3 zone or something. I mean give me a break right!!
Mike- the little girl's basketball game sounds fun. Heck I can't get my friends (we are 21 years old) to block out in summer league... whats your secret?
<< <i> Mike- the little girl's basketball game sounds fun. Heck I can't get my friends (we are 21 years old) to block out in summer league... whats your secret? >>
I use things like "magic fingers" (hands out fingers wiggling) to get them to move their hands around following the ball on defense, "be a monster" (they make themselves as large as they can by spreading out and not letting anyone by (within reason of course)), and try to use terms that make it fun for them. They may look at me crazy and obstinate when I tell them to "play defense", but if I tell them to "be a monster and use magic fingers", then they swarm like bees Probably the most important thing that I do is constantly reinforce to not worry about the shots you take that don't go in, at this age, most of them have trouble even getting it up to the basket, and the ones that can't, have severe anxiety about shooting as no kid likes to miss over and over, so on our team, it's OK to miss, but it's not OK to not shoot. I don't pull them out for missing, but I do pull them out for not attempting and they quickly learn that their best chance to be in the game is to keep firing and eventually they go in.
And in practice, about 80% of the things we do are done on a one on one basis so they can learn the skill without having to worry about the group setting. Then we'll scrimmage together at the end of practice and everything kinda comes together.
The kids on my team are great in that they all want to play, whereas a lot of the other teams in this age division sometimes have trouble even keeping their full team on the court
"...And in response to storm, I don't at all see how the special treatment issue comes into play...."
/////////////////////////
You are certainly correct.
My initial post was in response to the part of the subject that interested me; the comment..........
"The act of giving every child a 27th place medal and telling them they are all winners has brought us to this. "
Thus, most of my comments WERE indeed somewhat OT; with the possible exception of........
"According to FOX, the score in the instant game was 79-0 before any subs were sent in by the winning coach.
While I would have let the stinkers play sooner, the winning coach was no more obligated to do so than was the losing coach to forfeit after the scoring outcome became obvious........"
/////////////////
The "disability card" is being way overplayed by almost everybody, other than the kids who are wrongfully being labeled "disabled."
Folks Who Bite Get Bitten. Folks Who Don't Bite Get Eaten.
I've played a lot of sports in my time, a lot, and I've been on teams that won big and I've been on teams that lost big, and many games in between, and frankly the most interesting humorous games I quickly recall and laughingly talk about are the bad losing efforts. It's only a friggin' game and the parents are the ones who seem to blow this out of proportion because the parents are the ones whose pride gets shattered, not the kids on the losing team who likely joked about it the next day, and looked forward to their next game. Of course the news media as usual inflates stories such as this to get more readers, listeners, and viewers so they can generate more advertising revenue. Basically the story is much ado about nothing.
When I heard that they used a full-court press on the other team I couldn't believe it. What a total classless move by the coach of the winning team. What a loser!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I've coached both high school and middle schools girls basketball and you can tell within the first few minutes if the game is going to get out of hand. A lead of double digits in girls basketball is USUALLY secure. Once this coach was up by 15-20 points, there was no reason to press or even run plays, especially if the other team hadn't scored. This was poorly handled by the coach. This is when you drop your team back into a 2-3 low pressure zone and challenge your team if they can run their plays all the way through (i.e. seeing how the play operates once the ball is reversed) before taking a shot. You can also go into a 4 corners offense too. Being that the other team didn't even score, even if they got shots off, I'm sure they weren't close, so I don't think the coach had to worry about them catching up.
Many coaches here have caught flack for having their starters in during the 4th quarter, up by more than 20, pressing on a team that has no chance. The AD or principal needs to put these coaches in check that continue to run their teams in this fashion. I have been asked questions about these type of situations often in interviews for coaching positions.
This thread is running all over the place. Bottom line is the winning team could have used some class in their victory. Its one thing to win big but its another to win with class.
IMO Youth sports is getting way out of hand. Having coached basketball, baseball and soccer (yes soccer) I have determine a few thing.
1. Parents get too involved the in the game. Sit down and enjoy your child play, stop yelling at the volunteer refs, its embarassing.
2. I will get everyone ample playing time. Your son is no better than anyone else on the team. This was at the 5th and 6th grade level and everyone is at different development stages at that age both physically and sport skills wise.
3. Parents: Its not about you its about your child.
<< <i>"The act of giving every child a 27th place medal and telling them they are all winners has brought us to this. "
/////////////////
Sadly it is so.
It's an interesting story, and each person's view on the matter is largely shaped by their own experiences and upbringing.
As a ute in the 50s and 60s, the notion that "everybody" gets to play was totally foreign in ALL organized sports I played. ONLY the good/skilled players were allowed to play. Sometimes, I was one of the "good," sometimes not. Folks who did not get to play simply practiced harder in an effort to get to play "next week." It all seemed normal, and it certainly is how the real world works.
The everybody-plays nonsense is great for parents who have been unable to teach their kids that winning/losing at sports, while it seems important as a kid, is TOTALLY meaningless and non-contributive to success/failure in 99.99% of the population that reaches adulthood.
If MOST adults hung their success/failure flag on their childhood-sports flag-post, we would have a terminally depressed population. Sports parents and neo-socialist doctrine can't make kids whose play stinks, not stink. Kids ONLY get "permanently ruined" by adult reactions to losses; not by the losses themselves.
...........
According to FOX, the score in the instant game was 79-0 before any subs were sent in by the winning coach.
While I would have let the stinkers play sooner, the winning coach was no more obligated to do so than was the losing coach to forfeit after the scoring outcome became obvious.
Life is harsh and unfair. Good for me that I learned about that as a kid, and was, thus, not disappointed and surprised as an adult. >>
Lewis Carroll in "Alice and Wonderland " makes a satiric statement by stating ---- " They all must be winners , they all must have prizes ."
I'm sure that things could've and mostly should've been handled differently . If the losing team with its players and coaches , can gain something from this game , it wil be a plus. On the other hand , if the coaches and players of the winning team can learn from this game , probably a more valuable lesson might be learned.
I have not read every account that deals with this game, but What was the reaction of the parents of the players on the winning team. That would be more telling, IMHO---Sonny
" In a time of universal deceit , telling the truth is a revolutionary act " --- George Orwell
There's no need, once you get beyond developmental or recreational league (usually through grade school) to give in to the "every kid makes the team."
I coached soccer (not my strength) as a volunteer while my son was in grade school. Out town had three traveling teams and a town league of 12 teams. The teams were supposed to be randomly assigned, but geographics and recruiting took root and created some unbalance.
In my second year (3rd graders), I pushed the two best kids I had to a traveling team and asked the recreation director to put the kids that did not play regularly or where "rejected" by their coaches on other teams to be added to my roster. I ended up with some real misfits and athletically challenged players.
We made every practice a skill practice. One would be all passing, another ball control, defensive positioning, another shooting or throw-ins. Anyway, we focused on the skill in practice and then I wanted it reinforced in the game. We tallied each game with successes of the skills taught in practice that week by awarding "skill points," not by the goals scored or allowed. The kids, even though we lost much more often than we won, learned the basics of the game. By 6th and 7th grade, I was regularly pushing a kid or two a year to the traveling team and was getting calls from the rec director telling me that she had parents requesting their kids be on our team. Still we never won more than 3 games in any season of a 10-11 game schedule over the 7 season I coached, but we had fun and we learned.
The parents understood what we were doing and they NEVER talked about the score, even when we won. They used to come up after the game and ask, "How many skill points did Johnny score today?" They got it!
At the end of every year, we had a parents/kids game and picnic. The participation and involvement by the parents was incredible and often, kids and parents that had been advanced from our team to travel would still come back for the picnic and come to games to encourage their former teammates.
It will be interesting to see how things go this year as the kids I started with are all seniors in high school. Six of the boys I had at one time or another were on the varisty last year and the team was state ranked.
I'm hoping that they've learned that developing the basics, getting the pieces to build the complete puzzle, is something that can be applied to most of life's experiences.
I have been on both sides of a beating like this before. We had a high school football game called early because we could barely field a team in the second half. They shortened the quarters and it was absolutely embarassing to be on the field at the end of the game. I would have rather lost 100-0 at the time, but looking back on it we probably would have all gotten hurt because the other team didn't back down. I have also been in a game that we won in college baseball by over 20 runs and our center fielder hit two grand slams in one inning. We got on Sportscenter and the other team was humiliated.
I would question why a school that can only field a team of 6 is scheduling a team like that. Sometimes you need to look out for your team as an athletic director and save them some embarassment. You cannot count on other coaches and teams to look out for you, especially in the middle of a game. I think it was wrong, but going in someone knew that this could happen. Maybe not to this extent, but certainly a bad experience for all the girls. I think it is the athletic directors job for both schools to keep something like this in check. Maybe they could have played the JV squad instead of the varsity. I have seen that before. Embarassing for everyone. My opinion.
I was involved in an indoor soccer game like this once. We won the game 22-2. The way this place handled blowouts was to stop putting the score up on the scoreboard once there was a big goal lead. This actually led to the blow-out getting worse, we did not know how bad we were really running up the score since the scoreboard read 10-2 for a long time. The other team was short a player I think.
You know what else is classless? Blocked shots. I mean, those can be so embarassing!! We should outlaw them in youth basketball. Because at some point, one of the kids might feel bad about getting their shot blocked!
Oh!! And buzzer-beaters, too!! Nothing rips your heart out worse than losing at the last second. We should definitely make sure that those classless coaches instruct their kids to not shoot the ball in the last few seconds of a close game.
<parody over>
I have a crazy idea. How about instead of treating the losing players like victims of some kind of crime of impoliteness, why don't you do more to ensure that they are enrolled in leagues more suited to their skill level? There are competitive leagues, rec leagues, instructional leagues. All have vastly different rules and structures for a reason.
When you first heard this story, did you even bother to ask the following questions: What sort of league was this? If it was a rec league or an instructional league, why are they keeping score at all? Were the kids on the losing team crushed, or is this a news-story because some parents are offended at the final score? If people were very upset about this, why didn't the losing coach forfeit the game before the score became so lopsided? Why might that coach have chosen to play the game out? Might that coach know more about his kids' situations/personalities than I do? Does this league have rules that prevent blowouts of this type? Why or why not? Is it possible that the kids on the losing team gained some insight about the sport, themselves, and their opponents...and that maybe some of their parents were adept enough to see this as a learning experience?
If none of those question occurred to you...if your brain went directly to --> kids+blowout+full court press=the coach of the winnning team is evil, then you have some serious gaps in your reasoning skills. Try some objectivity.
And if you think that classiness includes pity, you have a very fractured view of how many people would like to be treated.
<< <i>I was involved in an indoor soccer game like this once. We won the game 22-2. The way this place handled blowouts was to stop putting the score up on the scoreboard once there was a big goal lead. This actually led to the blow-out getting worse, we did not know how bad we were really running up the score since the scoreboard read 10-2 for a long time. The other team was short a player I think. >>
My 4 year old nephew plays in a very recreational soccer league. The game doesn't end until every kid kicks the ball in the goal at least once. They all run around for a little while, get some fresh air, and they feel like they achieved something. It's very cute. For what it is, it's fantastic. And it's not a sport. Sportsmanship is not a factor because they aren't competing. It's not a competitive league. People know this going in. They join the league for recreation. Parents who want a competitive league go elsewhere. See the distinction?
If the 8th grade girls bb league in question was a recreational league, then 100-0 would seem to be a score that shouldn't be able to happen in that setting. And I would wonder if that league had the proper rules in place to ensure a recreational atmosphere. But I would still wait to start attacking coaches until I knew the finer points of what went wrong, if anything.
Be careful here, because if you are pro-pity in sports, where does that end? Do you want professional athletes to show pity? semi pros? college? high school? Does this opinion of yours change from sport to sport? Where do you draw your arbitrary line and why?
<< <i>You know what else is classless? Blocked shots. I mean, those can be so embarassing!! We should outlaw them in youth basketball. Because at some point, one of the kids might feel bad about getting their shot blocked!
Oh!! And buzzer-beaters, too!! Nothing rips your heart out worse than losing at the last second. We should definitely make sure that those classless coaches instruct their kids to not shoot the ball in the last few seconds of a close game.
<parody over>
I have a crazy idea. How about instead of treating the losing players like victims of some kind of crime of impoliteness, why don't you do more to ensure that they are enrolled in leagues more suited to their skill level? There are competitive leagues, rec leagues, instructional leagues. All have vastly different rules and structures for a reason.
When you first heard this story, did you even bother to ask the following questions: What sort of league was this? If it was a rec league or an instructional league, why are they keeping score at all? Were the kids on the losing team crushed, or is this a news-story because some parents are offended at the final score? If people were very upset about this, why didn't the losing coach forfeit the game before the score became so lopsided? Why might that coach have chosen to play the game out? Might that coach know more about his kids' situations/personalities than I do? Does this league have rules that prevent blowouts of this type? Why or why not? Is it possible that the kids on the losing team gained some insight about the sport, themselves, and their opponents...and that maybe some of their parents were adept enough to see this as a learning experience?
If none of those question occurred to you...if your brain went directly to --> kids+blowout+full court press=the coach of the winnning team is evil, then you have some serious gaps in your reasoning skills. Try some objectivity.
And if you think that classiness includes pity, you have a very fractured view of how many people would like to be treated. >>
I think most HAVE given this some thought and MOST have asked the questions you pose.
Knowing that things were most probably lopsided going in, it is pretty obvious that Covenant intended to run up the score and once they reached a certain threshold, decided to attempt to score 100 points. That is where the question of sportmanship comes into play.
Given that an opponent is outmatched, and in the guise of sportsmanship and fairplay, doesn't it concern anyone that claims that Covenant did nothing wrong, that Covenant not only took advantage of a weaker opponent (as would be expected), but used the weakness of the opponent to further their own agenda?
This is interscholastic sports we're talking about. This is a point in life where the educators are entrusted to build character and strength in our youth. I don't see how decimating an opponent teaches anything other than taking advantage of and exploit the weak for the purpose of maximizing your own selfish gains. And lest we forget, these are both Christian based schools. In a truly ironic twist the tables of yore were turned and the Christians of Covenant became the lions and devoured Dallas Academy.
<< <i>I was involved in an indoor soccer game like this once. We won the game 22-2. The way this place handled blowouts was to stop putting the score up on the scoreboard once there was a big goal lead. This actually led to the blow-out getting worse, we did not know how bad we were really running up the score since the scoreboard read 10-2 for a long time. The other team was short a player I think. >>
My 4 year old nephew plays in a very recreational soccer league. The game doesn't end until every kid kicks the ball in the goal at least once. They all run around for a little while, get some fresh air, and they feel like they achieved something. It's very cute. For what it is, it's fantastic. And it's not a sport. Sportsmanship is not a factor because they aren't competing. It's not a competitive league. People know this going in. They join the league for recreation. Parents who want a competitive league go elsewhere. See the distinction?
If the 8th grade girls bb league in question was a recreational league, then 100-0 would seem to be a score that shouldn't be able to happen in that setting. And I would wonder if that league had the proper rules in place to ensure a recreational atmosphere. But I would still wait to start attacking coaches until I knew the finer points of what went wrong, if anything.
Be careful here, because if you are pro-pity in sports, where does that end? Do you want professional athletes to show pity? semi pros? college? high school? Does this opinion of yours change from sport to sport? Where do you draw your arbitrary line and why? >>
Can you define pornography? Seriously-- can you? Most people can't. I know I can't. If you asked me to write up a definition for the dictionary almost anything I offered would be incomplete, or otherwise lacking.
You make a serious error when you assume that because the parameters of classlessness cannot be defined, they must not exist. The fact that I cannot announce, beforehand, the conditions which must be satisfied in order to make an event 'classless' does not mean the event is incapable of becoming classless. For while I cannot define the conditions that must be satisfied for pornography to be created, it's silly to say that pornography then must not exist. A similar-- actually, near identical-- argument applies to the question at hand here.
I should also add that alll lines are arbitrary, so that question you pose is nonsensical.
But ultimately this comes down to a question of personal standards. I think it's the picture of tackiness to drain threes and press when you're up 70 in the third quarter of a basketball game. Apparently you don't. But to assume that anyone who sees this differently suffers from some kind of cognitive disorder is profoundly narrow minded.
<< <i>to assume that anyone who sees this differently suffers from some kind of cognitive disorder is profoundly narrow minded. >>
Careful Boo, this thought treads onto many threads and attitudes held on these boards and they don't like being painted with that brush.
I'm not one for showing pity, especially as the stakes increase. It is a dog-eat-dog world, but as I said, and I think you agree, there is a level of sportsmanship or professionalism that needs to exist at all times in all walks of life. However, I think the level of compassion becomes less and less as you get closer and closer to adulthood.
Is this America? I don't think that coach was right to run the score up to 100-0, but there are plenty of Women's College basketball scores that flash by on ESPN's bottom line every day that read 82-29. How is that any better?
I'm not a fan of the no mercy coaching state of mind, but I also can't stand the "everyone gets a trophy" mentality either. When you're living in a capitalist system and failure equates to less value (in many circumstances), there is nothing wrong with putting extra value on winning. Should that translate to a loss of honor and sportsmanship, no, but if children are coddled to the point of always thinking everything's going to be ok and it's fine if you don't try hard and lose then what happens when they go for a job interview when they're 25?
Winning, ordinarily, is a byproduct of hard work and determination...two values that are important in a capitalist system and thus necessary for survival in the United States. There are many studies that show that core life values are imprinted before the age of 15 in many cases. I'm not sure why it's so wrong that some people use sports to help teach hard work and discipline.
Of course none of that gives parents the right to be loud-mouthed idiots and go way overboard. It's the organizers that I have a problem with in most instances.
<< <i>You make a serious error when you assume that because the parameters of classlessness cannot be defined, they must not exist. The fact that I cannot announce, beforehand, the conditions which must be satisfied in order to make an event 'classless' does not mean the event is incapable of becoming classless. For while I cannot define the conditions that must be satisfied for pornography to be created, it's silly to say that pornography then must not exist. A similar-- actually, near identical-- argument applies to the question at hand here. >>
When did I ever say that the parameters of classiness must not exist? Be specific.
I don't believe in some cosmic set of rules that define classiness. I don't think you do, either. And this is entirely the point. What is classy to one person can be classless to another. An embarassing defeat to one player could be an empowering learning experience to another. These subjective gaps in concepts like class, humiliation, & sportsmanship (pornography) are what compel people to form sports leagues in which there are pre-approved rules that govern these issues indefinitely. THAT is how you remove subjectivity. People will always have the right to hold tightly their fringe opinions, but joining a league with a set of rules is a different animal. If league members agree that shooting 3-pointers when a team is up by 50 points is a classless act, the league can design rules to prevent that from happening. This particular league either didn't have those rules in place or it didn't enforce them. Why do you suppose that is? Where is all of the hatred for the league and its lack of more sensitive rules? Why have people focused so much on the winning coach rather than the league that allowed this to happen within its rules?
You think that "it's the picture of tackiness to drain threes and press when you're up 70 in the third quarter of a basketball game". That's great! If it's a competitive league, I would probably disagree with you. If it's a rec-league, I'd agree with you to a point. I would think adjustments probably need to be made to the structure of those games to achieve a more recreational feeling for all of the kids involved.
I can tell you that my own parameters of tackiness would definitely include people who are so arrogant that they'd assume that opponents in a blowout scenario would even WANT pity. To me it seems more classy and respectful to play your best and then genuinely show demolished opponents respect when the game is over.
<< <i>I should also add that alll lines are arbitrary, so that question you pose is nonsensical. >>
Fair enough. I'll pose the question minus the "arbitrary" comment. If you are pro-pity in sports, where does that end? Do you want professional athletes to show pity? semi pros? college? high school? Does this opinion of yours change from sport to sport? Why or why not? How exactly do you determine when new rules need to be implemented to lessen losing players' hurt feelings? Please be specific, so no one ever has to wonder about it again and all coaches and players can be "classy" from now on.
<< <i>But to assume that anyone who sees this differently suffers from some kind of cognitive disorder is profoundly narrow minded. >>
Well gosh, it's a good thing I didn't do that, then.
I don't think that people who disagree with my position are suffering from any kind of cognitive disorder. I think that anyone who spews all of their venom at the winning coach before taking a hard look at the league, the losing coach, and the parents of the losing players are being far too emotionally reactionary and are exhibiting poor reasoning skills. I think that people who have considered all of the factors and cognitively decided to focus their ire onto the winning coach are misguided and I disagree with their conclusion, but I'm not claiming there is anything particularly malfunctioning in their brains.
My disconnect with the group here comes down to entitlement, I think. I think that from the moment the ball is in the air, a competitor in that basketball game owes their opponent nothing. The rules/parameters of the game are concrete and both sides have their behavior within the game spelled out to them. I feel like if people think that the rules of basketball should be adjusted to protect people's feelings, they should be advocates of rule changes, not coach-roasting.
If this thread was about advocacy to institute a mercy rule in that basketball league rather than assigning blame for an abstract problem, my position would be vastly different.
<< <i>to assume that anyone who sees this differently suffers from some kind of cognitive disorder is profoundly narrow minded. >>
Careful Boo, this thought treads onto many threads and attitudes held on these boards and they don't like being painted with that brush.
I'm not one for showing pity, especially as the stakes increase. It is a dog-eat-dog world, but as I said, and I think you agree, there is a level of sportsmanship or professionalism that needs to exist at all times in all walks of life. However, I think the level of compassion becomes less and less as you get closer and closer to adulthood. >>
Compassion is great! I like compassion. But on the basketball court? In a competitive league? Seems out of place to me there because of the subjectivity problem.
And I have to reaffirm that I think the most sportsmanly, respectful way to behave is to play your game to the best of your ability from the first whistle to the last. If both teams are doing that and one of them loses by 100, so be it. A 100 point loss isn't inherently disrespectful or incompassionate.
<< <i>to assume that anyone who sees this differently suffers from some kind of cognitive disorder is profoundly narrow minded. >>
Careful Boo, this thought treads onto many threads and attitudes held on these boards and they don't like being painted with that brush.
I'm not one for showing pity, especially as the stakes increase. It is a dog-eat-dog world, but as I said, and I think you agree, there is a level of sportsmanship or professionalism that needs to exist at all times in all walks of life. However, I think the level of compassion becomes less and less as you get closer and closer to adulthood. >>
Compassion is great! I like compassion. But on the basketball court? In a competitive league? Seems out of place to me there because of the subjectivity problem.
And I have to reaffirm that I think the most sportsmanly, respectful way to behave is to play your game to the best of your ability from the first whistle to the last. If both teams are doing that and one of them loses by 100, so be it. A 100 point loss isn't inherently disrespectful or incompassionate. >>
Again, I don't have anything about playing the game hard and to the best of one's ability, but to employ a full court press and attempt to run up the score is not sportsmanship. Competitive league or not!
The fact that the parents of Covenant displayed such actions during the game and that some on here don't see that the way this game played out as an issue is a reflection on our society as a whole.
Please, don't take me as some bleeding heart, but there is a point at which one that is entrusted to develop our youth has to draw the line and become a teacher.
This borders on being in the same boat as the high school baseball coach that instructed his pitcher to drill a handicapped batter because he didn't think he should be in the league. The batter should've been pitched to and struck out on 3 strikes if he didn't belong. Dallas Academy should've been defeated, but they didn't need to be beaned.
The story is below. Sounds like a case of insubordination to me. If he were my employee, I would have fired him as well for taking his disagreement to the newspaper. That's the one thing that my employees are well aware of, they are not to publicly disagree with me. If they have a problem with something I decide they can come in my office and voice it without any repurcussion, but to publicly disagree and state so to the newspaper, is insubordination and instant grounds for dismissal.
Mike
DALLAS - The coach of a Texas high school basketball team that beat another team 100-0 was fired Sunday, the same day he sent an e-mail to a newspaper saying he will not apologize “for a wide-margin victory when my girls played with honor and integrity.”
Kyle Queal, the headmaster for Covenant School, said in The Dallas Morning News online edition that he could not answer if the firing was a direct result of coach Micah Grimes’ e-mail disagreeing with administrators who called the blowout “shameful.”
Queal did not immediately answer phone messages or e-mail from The Associated Press.
On its Web site last week, Covenant, a private Christian school, posted a statement regretting the outcome of its Jan. 13 shutout win over Dallas Academy. “It is shameful and an embarrassment that this happened. This clearly does not reflect a Christlike and honorable approach to competition,” said the statement, signed by Queal and board chair Todd Doshier.
Grimes, who has been criticized for letting the game get so far out of hand, made it clear in the e-mail Sunday to the newspaper that he does not agree with his school’s assessment.
“In response to the statement posted on The Covenant School Web site, I do not agree with the apology or the notion that the Covenant School girls basketball team should feel embarrassed or ashamed,” Grimes wrote in the e-mail, according to the newspaper. “We played the game as it was meant to be played. My values and my beliefs would not allow me to run up the score on any opponent, and it will not allow me to apologize for a wide-margin victory when my girls played with honor and integrity.”
A phone number for Grimes could not be located by The Associated Press. The Dallas Morning News said Grimes did not respond to their repeated e-mail requests for a telephone interview.
There was no answer at a number listed for Doshier.
A parent who attended the game said Covenant continued to make 3-pointers — even in the fourth quarter. She praised the Covenant players but said spectators and an assistant coach were cheering wildly as their team edged closer to 100 points.
Covenant was up 59-0 at halftime.
Dallas Academy has eight girls on its varsity team and about 20 girls in its high school. It is winless over the last four seasons. The academy boasts of its small class sizes and specializes in teaching students struggling with “learning differences,” such as short attention spans or dyslexia.
There is no mercy rule in girls basketball that shortens the game or permits the clock to continue running when scores become one-sided. There is, however, “a golden rule” that should have applied in this contest, Edd Burleson, the director of the Texas Association of Private and Parochial Schools, said last week. Both schools are members of this association, which oversees private school athletics in Texas.
The story has received national attention, and the Dallas Academy team has been recognized for refusing to give up during the lopsided contest.
<< <i>Again, I don't have anything about playing the game hard and to the best of one's ability, but to employ a full court press and attempt to run up the score is not sportsmanship. Competitive league or not! >>
I respect your position but I disagree wholeheartedly. I think poor sportsmanship is instructing your team to lay down when shooting 3s and pressing is your best strategy, regardless of the score (in a competitive league). I also think it is very presumptuous and disrespectful to give mercy to people who may not want it.
Am I really the only one here who would be deeply offended as a competitor if my opponent took so much pity on me during a blowout that they stopped playing their best game as a measure of protecting my feelings or in the interest of appearing classy?
I really wish that sportsmanship could be better defined by those who are going to great lengths to call people out on it. Why is it sportsman-like to outscore a team making lay-ups, but not by shooting threes? What if the crappy team is better at defending threes?!?? At that point, does sportsmanship dictate that you ONLY shoot threes?!? Or maybe take it a step further and sportsmanship means that you can only attempt half court bombs? That way, you're basically just turning the ball over the whole time. Would that accomplish the goal of sportsmanship? Why is it sportsman-like to defend on one half of the court, but not the other? Is it less sportsman-like to defend with your arms as well as your feet during a blow-out? Or should you just not defend at all? Should you pretend to defend? Is it more sportsman-like to teach the kids to FAKE playing hard? And what is the exact lead where everyone should know to stop playing their hardest? That's important because apparently one misstep by a coach can determine whether or not he/she is being a classy sportsman or a tacky loser.
<< <i>The story is below. Sounds like a case of insubordination to me. If he were my employee, I would have fired him as well for taking his disagreement to the newspaper. >>
That sounds to be exactly the case. If he didn't want to apologize, well...fine for him, but he should have known to keep his mouth shut.
Queal said the game "does not reflect a Christ-like and honorable approach to competition. We humbly apologize for our actions and seek the forgiveness of Dallas Academy, TAPPS and our community."
And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who would attempt to poison and destroy my brothers!! And you will know my name is the LORD when I lay my vengeance upon thee!!!
"...the way this game played out as an issue is a reflection on our society as a whole."
/////////////
Yup.
And, for that reason alone, telling kids that the subject game was an aberration is a major disservice to them.
............ ................ ..................
In the earliest version of the AP blast......
"...specializes in teaching students with “learning differences,” such as short attention spans or dyslexia."
In the latest version.......
"....specializes in teaching students struggling with “learning differences,” such as short attention spans or dyslexia."
(EDIT TO ADD: The one I called "earliest version" was a YAHOO run of the story. I am looking for a link. The point was that the word "struggling" is gratuitous, editorial, and subjective in nature.)
The leftwing media is totally out of control. They will say anything to grab eyeballs and "touch" America's new passion for compassion. Amazing that they are now trying to soften-up sports fans.
Make 'em laugh, make 'em cry, tell 'em some lies and say goodbye. Hopefully, ALL such media will go broke, SOON.
////////////////////////////////
Both of the subject schools have a religious affiliation.
I graudated from a religious high-school, and played sports there for two+ years.
I was coached by YMCA guys as a tiny kid, and I was coached by public school employees.
NEVER was I treated as brutally as I was at the hands of the "religious" coaches. Thank all that is holy that I encountered those guys before I got to college, and moved on into the real world.
.......... .............. ...................
The winning coach should have been fired for refusing to go along with his employer's sell out. THAT is how the real world works; you don't bash your employer, unless you are ready to find a new one.
I hope the guy gets a great new position working for an outfit whose parents want their kids to learn that sports are WAR. In the same sense that business and life are WAR.
///////////
Folks Who Bite Get Bitten. Folks Who Don't Bite Get Eaten.
<< <i>The leftwing media is totally out of control. They will say anything to grab eyeballs and "touch" America's new passion for compassion. Amazing that they are now trying to soften-up sports fans. >>
Leftwing media? Oh, boy . . . Let's just try the media in general.
“We played the game as it was meant to be played. My values and my beliefs would not allow me to run up the score on any opponent, and it will not allow me to apologize for a wide-margin victory when my girls played with honor and integrity.”
my question then is why stop and stall the ball with 4:00 left after you hit 100?? what changed with your game plan at that point? if 59-0 at the half was not enough to get some other (under classman/player that don't play much-less talented) players some court time against a team that hasn't won in 4 years then he should probably not be coaching anyway. there is a classy way to win big and show the game some respect/integrity and scoring and pressing until you get to 100 and then stalling the ball is not it.
nobody asked him to not play his game, but pressing and calling plays for 3 pointers up by 60+ against that team should be questioned.
Fred
collecting RAW Topps baseball cards 1952 Highs to 1972. looking for collector grade (somewhere between psa 4-7 condition). let me know what you have, I'll take it, I want to finish sets, I must have something you can use for trade.
looking for Topps 71-72 hi's-62-53-54-55-59, I have these sets started
<< <i>My values and my beliefs would not allow me to run up the score on any opponent >>
I take it 100-0 to him is not running up the score? Does the lead need to be in 4 to 5 digits before he sends in the subs?
By waiting until the score was 100-0 to send in subs and then change the gameplan confirms they were trying to achieve that score IE run it up to humiliate their opponent by some arbitrary score. If it was 100-0 and they played all their subs, brought some JV and worked on all their sets and defense then it would have been ok in my book.
Currently completing the following registry sets: Cardinal HOF's, 1961 Pittsburgh Pirates Team, 1972 Pittsburgh Pirates Team, 1980 Pittsburgh Pirates Team, Bill Mazeroski Master & Basic Sets, Roberto Clemente Master & Basic Sets, Willie Stargell Master & Basic Sets and Terry Bradshaw Basic Set
Once we won a game 109-9 It was my high school basketball team We were really good that year Top 10 in the state easy The team we play was really bad what made it worse was 5 starters and 1 sub were all the players that showed up for the game so it meant we had to keep our starters in we didn't press we played a zone defence the only shots we took in the second half were lay-ups we walked the ball down the court they even cut the game time by 2 minutes in both 3rd and 4th quarters I personally scored 37 points (my new personal record) so i felt felt fine Had we given 100% and tried i believe that we could have scored 200 points that game crazy huh???
I apologize, since I did not read through the whole thread, just the first page or so, but......
I see many problems with this whole story. First, is why would either team play this game? The winning team no doubt knew there would be no competition as the losing team undoubtedly knew they could not win. Secondly, why is there a "learning" disability school playing a regular school to begin with? Finally, why the outcry?
My opinion is that if you step onto the court in a legitimate competition, you take your chances. If you win big or lose big, you take from it what you can and go from there. You are doing a disservice to the winners if you tell them to let up as you are to the losers if they know that the other team is feeling pity for them. Life is not that way and too many times kids grow up thinking that they will be compensated in life as they were as a kid, whether it be in sports, academics or anything else and by the time they realize that life just doesnt work that way, its too late.
I learned more from my failures growing up than I did my successes. If someone had not defeated me in whatever I was doing, I wouldnt have learned how to be successful. Everyone wants to play the victim nowadays and while I realize that the kids themselves probably are not crying about it, someone is or else it wouldnt have made headlines. The parents/media are turning these kids into victims because of a sporting event, nice job guys.
<< <i>Who should be fired is the person that allowed for those 2 teams to play. >>
Both schools are members of the Texas Association of Private and Parochial Schools - probably a league game. You gotta play who's on your schedule. Having said that, someone shoulda called off the dogs at some point. A parent, an administrator, somebody. 3-pointers and full-court press when the game was clearly out of reach, say past 50-0, was not a good decision by the winning school's coaching staff.
When both teams are in the same league (if that is the case) then the school needs to find another league or the team needed to play the other teams frosh. team
In any event you can't ask a team to lay down on an opponent as that IMO is worse then going all out.
Or...if the school that got beat can't find other opponents and are forced to play in games like this they have to learn to suck it up.
I have to think that the winning coach had his 3rd string out there for most of that game.
Comments
Mike- the little girl's basketball game sounds fun. Heck I can't get my friends (we are 21 years old) to block out in summer league... whats your secret?
HOF SIGNED FOOTBALL RCS
<< <i>
Mike- the little girl's basketball game sounds fun. Heck I can't get my friends (we are 21 years old) to block out in summer league... whats your secret? >>
I use things like "magic fingers" (hands out fingers wiggling) to get them to move their hands around following the ball on defense, "be a monster" (they make themselves as large as they can by spreading out and not letting anyone by (within reason of course)), and try to use terms that make it fun for them. They may look at me crazy and obstinate when I tell them to "play defense", but if I tell them to "be a monster and use magic fingers", then they swarm like bees
And in practice, about 80% of the things we do are done on a one on one basis so they can learn the skill without having to worry about the group setting. Then we'll scrimmage together at the end of practice and everything kinda comes together.
The kids on my team are great in that they all want to play, whereas a lot of the other teams in this age division sometimes have trouble even keeping their full team on the court
Mike
/////////////////////////
You are certainly correct.
My initial post was in response to the part of the subject that interested me; the comment..........
"The act of giving every child a 27th place medal and telling them they are all winners has brought us to this. "
Thus, most of my comments WERE indeed somewhat OT; with the possible exception of........
"According to FOX, the score in the instant game was 79-0 before any
subs were sent in by the winning coach.
While I would have let the stinkers play sooner, the winning coach was
no more obligated to do so than was the losing coach to forfeit after the
scoring outcome became obvious........"
/////////////////
The "disability card" is being way overplayed by almost everybody, other
than the kids who are wrongfully being labeled "disabled."
"Molon Labe"
/s/ JackWESQ
/////////////////////////////////////////
The media has played this up big.
Problem is, that it's just NOT true, in the sense that most of us
think of "special needs."
<< <i>I don't believe clobbering a team of special needs kids gives a real good lesson on life other than how not to behave. >>
I agree with you. I do not get what the pleasure is of beating them by 100 points
<< <i>The act of giving every child a 27th place medal and telling them they are all winners has brought us to this. >>
I totally agree.
I would've gone for 150-0. Maybe 200.
This was poorly handled by the coach. This is when you drop your team back into a 2-3 low pressure zone and challenge your team if they can run their plays all the way through (i.e. seeing how the play operates once the ball is reversed) before taking a shot. You can also go into a 4 corners offense too.
Being that the other team didn't even score, even if they got shots off, I'm sure they weren't close, so I don't think the coach had to worry about them catching up.
Many coaches here have caught flack for having their starters in during the 4th quarter, up by more than 20, pressing on a team that has no chance. The AD or principal needs to put these coaches in check that continue to run their teams in this fashion. I have been asked questions about these type of situations often in interviews for coaching positions.
IMO Youth sports is getting way out of hand. Having coached basketball, baseball and soccer (yes soccer) I have determine a few thing.
1. Parents get too involved the in the game. Sit down and enjoy your child play, stop yelling at the volunteer refs, its embarassing.
2. I will get everyone ample playing time. Your son is no better than anyone else on the team. This was at the 5th and 6th grade level and everyone is at different development stages at that age both physically and sport skills wise.
3. Parents: Its not about you its about your child.
My Sandberg topps basic set
My Sandberg Topps Master set
fur72 has said it best. hear hear!~
<< <i>"The act of giving every child a 27th place medal and telling them they are all winners has brought us to this. "
/////////////////
Sadly it is so.
It's an interesting story, and each person's view on the matter
is largely shaped by their own experiences and upbringing.
As a ute in the 50s and 60s, the notion that "everybody" gets to
play was totally foreign in ALL organized sports I played. ONLY
the good/skilled players were allowed to play. Sometimes, I was
one of the "good," sometimes not. Folks who did not get to play
simply practiced harder in an effort to get to play "next week."
It all seemed normal, and it certainly is how the real world works.
The everybody-plays nonsense is great for parents who have been
unable to teach their kids that winning/losing at sports, while it
seems important as a kid, is TOTALLY meaningless and non-contributive
to success/failure in 99.99% of the population that reaches adulthood.
If MOST adults hung their success/failure flag on their childhood-sports
flag-post, we would have a terminally depressed population. Sports
parents and neo-socialist doctrine can't make kids whose play stinks,
not stink. Kids ONLY get "permanently ruined" by adult reactions to
losses; not by the losses themselves.
...........
According to FOX, the score in the instant game was 79-0 before any
subs were sent in by the winning coach.
While I would have let the stinkers play sooner, the winning coach was
no more obligated to do so than was the losing coach to forfeit after the
scoring outcome became obvious.
Life is harsh and unfair. Good for me that I learned about that as a kid,
and was, thus, not disappointed and surprised as an adult. >>
Lewis Carroll in "Alice and Wonderland " makes a satiric statement by stating ---- " They all must be winners , they all must have prizes ."
I'm sure that things could've and mostly should've been handled differently . If the losing team with its players and coaches , can gain something from this game , it wil be a plus. On the other hand , if the coaches and players of the winning team can learn from this game , probably a more valuable lesson might be learned.
I have not read every account that deals with this game, but What was the reaction of the parents of the players on the winning team. That would be more telling, IMHO---Sonny
I coached soccer (not my strength) as a volunteer while my son was in grade school. Out town had three traveling teams and a town league of 12 teams. The teams were supposed to be randomly assigned, but geographics and recruiting took root and created some unbalance.
In my second year (3rd graders), I pushed the two best kids I had to a traveling team and asked the recreation director to put the kids that did not play regularly or where "rejected" by their coaches on other teams to be added to my roster. I ended up with some real misfits and athletically challenged players.
We made every practice a skill practice. One would be all passing, another ball control, defensive positioning, another shooting or throw-ins. Anyway, we focused on the skill in practice and then I wanted it reinforced in the game. We tallied each game with successes of the skills taught in practice that week by awarding "skill points," not by the goals scored or allowed. The kids, even though we lost much more often than we won, learned the basics of the game. By 6th and 7th grade, I was regularly pushing a kid or two a year to the traveling team and was getting calls from the rec director telling me that she had parents requesting their kids be on our team. Still we never won more than 3 games in any season of a 10-11 game schedule over the 7 season I coached, but we had fun and we learned.
The parents understood what we were doing and they NEVER talked about the score, even when we won. They used to come up after the game and ask, "How many skill points did Johnny score today?" They got it!
At the end of every year, we had a parents/kids game and picnic. The participation and involvement by the parents was incredible and often, kids and parents that had been advanced from our team to travel would still come back for the picnic and come to games to encourage their former teammates.
It will be interesting to see how things go this year as the kids I started with are all seniors in high school. Six of the boys I had at one time or another were on the varisty last year and the team was state ranked.
I'm hoping that they've learned that developing the basics, getting the pieces to build the complete puzzle, is something that can be applied to most of life's experiences.
I would question why a school that can only field a team of 6 is scheduling a team like that. Sometimes you need to look out for your team as an athletic director and save them some embarassment. You cannot count on other coaches and teams to look out for you, especially in the middle of a game. I think it was wrong, but going in someone knew that this could happen. Maybe not to this extent, but certainly a bad experience for all the girls. I think it is the athletic directors job for both schools to keep something like this in check. Maybe they could have played the JV squad instead of the varsity. I have seen that before. Embarassing for everyone. My opinion.
T222's PSA 1 or better
Oh!! And buzzer-beaters, too!! Nothing rips your heart out worse than losing at the last second. We should definitely make sure that those classless coaches instruct their kids to not shoot the ball in the last few seconds of a close game.
<parody over>
I have a crazy idea. How about instead of treating the losing players like victims of some kind of crime of impoliteness, why don't you do more to ensure that they are enrolled in leagues more suited to their skill level? There are competitive leagues, rec leagues, instructional leagues. All have vastly different rules and structures for a reason.
When you first heard this story, did you even bother to ask the following questions:
What sort of league was this? If it was a rec league or an instructional league, why are they keeping score at all?
Were the kids on the losing team crushed, or is this a news-story because some parents are offended at the final score?
If people were very upset about this, why didn't the losing coach forfeit the game before the score became so lopsided? Why might that coach have chosen to play the game out? Might that coach know more about his kids' situations/personalities than I do?
Does this league have rules that prevent blowouts of this type? Why or why not?
Is it possible that the kids on the losing team gained some insight about the sport, themselves, and their opponents...and that maybe some of their parents were adept enough to see this as a learning experience?
If none of those question occurred to you...if your brain went directly to --> kids+blowout+full court press=the coach of the winnning team is evil, then you have some serious gaps in your reasoning skills. Try some objectivity.
And if you think that classiness includes pity, you have a very fractured view of how many people would like to be treated.
<< <i>I was involved in an indoor soccer game like this once. We won the game 22-2. The way this place handled blowouts was to stop putting the score up on the scoreboard once there was a big goal lead. This actually led to the blow-out getting worse, we did not know how bad we were really running up the score since the scoreboard read 10-2 for a long time. The other team was short a player I think. >>
My 4 year old nephew plays in a very recreational soccer league. The game doesn't end until every kid kicks the ball in the goal at least once. They all run around for a little while, get some fresh air, and they feel like they achieved something. It's very cute. For what it is, it's fantastic. And it's not a sport. Sportsmanship is not a factor because they aren't competing. It's not a competitive league. People know this going in. They join the league for recreation. Parents who want a competitive league go elsewhere. See the distinction?
If the 8th grade girls bb league in question was a recreational league, then 100-0 would seem to be a score that shouldn't be able to happen in that setting. And I would wonder if that league had the proper rules in place to ensure a recreational atmosphere. But I would still wait to start attacking coaches until I knew the finer points of what went wrong, if anything.
Be careful here, because if you are pro-pity in sports, where does that end? Do you want professional athletes to show pity? semi pros? college? high school? Does this opinion of yours change from sport to sport? Where do you draw your arbitrary line and why?
<< <i>You know what else is classless? Blocked shots. I mean, those can be so embarassing!! We should outlaw them in youth basketball. Because at some point, one of the kids might feel bad about getting their shot blocked!
Oh!! And buzzer-beaters, too!! Nothing rips your heart out worse than losing at the last second. We should definitely make sure that those classless coaches instruct their kids to not shoot the ball in the last few seconds of a close game.
<parody over>
I have a crazy idea. How about instead of treating the losing players like victims of some kind of crime of impoliteness, why don't you do more to ensure that they are enrolled in leagues more suited to their skill level? There are competitive leagues, rec leagues, instructional leagues. All have vastly different rules and structures for a reason.
When you first heard this story, did you even bother to ask the following questions:
What sort of league was this? If it was a rec league or an instructional league, why are they keeping score at all?
Were the kids on the losing team crushed, or is this a news-story because some parents are offended at the final score?
If people were very upset about this, why didn't the losing coach forfeit the game before the score became so lopsided? Why might that coach have chosen to play the game out? Might that coach know more about his kids' situations/personalities than I do?
Does this league have rules that prevent blowouts of this type? Why or why not?
Is it possible that the kids on the losing team gained some insight about the sport, themselves, and their opponents...and that maybe some of their parents were adept enough to see this as a learning experience?
If none of those question occurred to you...if your brain went directly to --> kids+blowout+full court press=the coach of the winnning team is evil, then you have some serious gaps in your reasoning skills. Try some objectivity.
And if you think that classiness includes pity, you have a very fractured view of how many people would like to be treated. >>
I think most HAVE given this some thought and MOST have asked the questions you pose.
Knowing that things were most probably lopsided going in, it is pretty obvious that Covenant intended to run up the score and once they reached a certain threshold, decided to attempt to score 100 points. That is where the question of sportmanship comes into play.
Given that an opponent is outmatched, and in the guise of sportsmanship and fairplay, doesn't it concern anyone that claims that Covenant did nothing wrong, that Covenant not only took advantage of a weaker opponent (as would be expected), but used the weakness of the opponent to further their own agenda?
This is interscholastic sports we're talking about. This is a point in life where the educators are entrusted to build character and strength in our youth. I don't see how decimating an opponent teaches anything other than taking advantage of and exploit the weak for the purpose of maximizing your own selfish gains. And lest we forget, these are both Christian based schools. In a truly ironic twist the tables of yore were turned and the Christians of Covenant became the lions and devoured Dallas Academy.
<< <i>
<< <i>I was involved in an indoor soccer game like this once. We won the game 22-2. The way this place handled blowouts was to stop putting the score up on the scoreboard once there was a big goal lead. This actually led to the blow-out getting worse, we did not know how bad we were really running up the score since the scoreboard read 10-2 for a long time. The other team was short a player I think. >>
My 4 year old nephew plays in a very recreational soccer league. The game doesn't end until every kid kicks the ball in the goal at least once. They all run around for a little while, get some fresh air, and they feel like they achieved something. It's very cute. For what it is, it's fantastic. And it's not a sport. Sportsmanship is not a factor because they aren't competing. It's not a competitive league. People know this going in. They join the league for recreation. Parents who want a competitive league go elsewhere. See the distinction?
If the 8th grade girls bb league in question was a recreational league, then 100-0 would seem to be a score that shouldn't be able to happen in that setting. And I would wonder if that league had the proper rules in place to ensure a recreational atmosphere. But I would still wait to start attacking coaches until I knew the finer points of what went wrong, if anything.
Be careful here, because if you are pro-pity in sports, where does that end? Do you want professional athletes to show pity? semi pros? college? high school? Does this opinion of yours change from sport to sport? Where do you draw your arbitrary line and why? >>
Can you define pornography? Seriously-- can you? Most people can't. I know I can't. If you asked me to write up a definition for the dictionary almost anything I offered would be incomplete, or otherwise lacking.
You make a serious error when you assume that because the parameters of classlessness cannot be defined, they must not exist. The fact that I cannot announce, beforehand, the conditions which must be satisfied in order to make an event 'classless' does not mean the event is incapable of becoming classless. For while I cannot define the conditions that must be satisfied for pornography to be created, it's silly to say that pornography then must not exist. A similar-- actually, near identical-- argument applies to the question at hand here.
I should also add that alll lines are arbitrary, so that question you pose is nonsensical.
But ultimately this comes down to a question of personal standards. I think it's the picture of tackiness to drain threes and press when you're up 70 in the third quarter of a basketball game. Apparently you don't. But to assume that anyone who sees this differently suffers from some kind of cognitive disorder is profoundly narrow minded.
<< <i>But to assume that anyone who sees this differently suffers from some kind of cognitive disorder is profoundly narrow minded. >>
Roger that.
<< <i>to assume that anyone who sees this differently suffers from some kind of cognitive disorder is profoundly narrow minded. >>
Careful Boo, this thought treads onto many threads and attitudes held on these boards and they don't like being painted with that brush.
I'm not one for showing pity, especially as the stakes increase. It is a dog-eat-dog world, but as I said, and I think you agree, there is a level of sportsmanship or professionalism that needs to exist at all times in all walks of life. However, I think the level of compassion becomes less and less as you get closer and closer to adulthood.
I'm not a fan of the no mercy coaching state of mind, but I also can't stand the "everyone gets a trophy" mentality either. When you're living in a capitalist system and failure equates to less value (in many circumstances), there is nothing wrong with putting extra value on winning. Should that translate to a loss of honor and sportsmanship, no, but if children are coddled to the point of always thinking everything's going to be ok and it's fine if you don't try hard and lose then what happens when they go for a job interview when they're 25?
Winning, ordinarily, is a byproduct of hard work and determination...two values that are important in a capitalist system and thus necessary for survival in the United States. There are many studies that show that core life values are imprinted before the age of 15 in many cases. I'm not sure why it's so wrong that some people use sports to help teach hard work and discipline.
Of course none of that gives parents the right to be loud-mouthed idiots and go way overboard. It's the organizers that I have a problem with in most instances.
My Podcast - Now FEATURED on iTunes
<< <i>You make a serious error when you assume that because the parameters of classlessness cannot be defined, they must not exist. The fact that I cannot announce, beforehand, the conditions which must be satisfied in order to make an event 'classless' does not mean the event is incapable of becoming classless. For while I cannot define the conditions that must be satisfied for pornography to be created, it's silly to say that pornography then must not exist. A similar-- actually, near identical-- argument applies to the question at hand here. >>
When did I ever say that the parameters of classiness must not exist? Be specific.
I don't believe in some cosmic set of rules that define classiness. I don't think you do, either. And this is entirely the point. What is classy to one person can be classless to another. An embarassing defeat to one player could be an empowering learning experience to another. These subjective gaps in concepts like class, humiliation, & sportsmanship (pornography) are what compel people to form sports leagues in which there are pre-approved rules that govern these issues indefinitely. THAT is how you remove subjectivity. People will always have the right to hold tightly their fringe opinions, but joining a league with a set of rules is a different animal. If league members agree that shooting 3-pointers when a team is up by 50 points is a classless act, the league can design rules to prevent that from happening. This particular league either didn't have those rules in place or it didn't enforce them. Why do you suppose that is?
Where is all of the hatred for the league and its lack of more sensitive rules? Why have people focused so much on the winning coach rather than the league that allowed this to happen within its rules?
You think that "it's the picture of tackiness to drain threes and press when you're up 70 in the third quarter of a basketball game". That's great! If it's a competitive league, I would probably disagree with you. If it's a rec-league, I'd agree with you to a point. I would think adjustments probably need to be made to the structure of those games to achieve a more recreational feeling for all of the kids involved.
I can tell you that my own parameters of tackiness would definitely include people who are so arrogant that they'd assume that opponents in a blowout scenario would even WANT pity. To me it seems more classy and respectful to play your best and then genuinely show demolished opponents respect when the game is over.
<< <i>I should also add that alll lines are arbitrary, so that question you pose is nonsensical. >>
Fair enough. I'll pose the question minus the "arbitrary" comment.
If you are pro-pity in sports, where does that end? Do you want professional athletes to show pity? semi pros? college? high school? Does this opinion of yours change from sport to sport? Why or why not? How exactly do you determine when new rules need to be implemented to lessen losing players' hurt feelings? Please be specific, so no one ever has to wonder about it again and all coaches and players can be "classy" from now on.
<< <i>But to assume that anyone who sees this differently suffers from some kind of cognitive disorder is profoundly narrow minded. >>
Well gosh, it's a good thing I didn't do that, then.
I don't think that people who disagree with my position are suffering from any kind of cognitive disorder. I think that anyone who spews all of their venom at the winning coach before taking a hard look at the league, the losing coach, and the parents of the losing players are being far too emotionally reactionary and are exhibiting poor reasoning skills. I think that people who have considered all of the factors and cognitively decided to focus their ire onto the winning coach are misguided and I disagree with their conclusion, but I'm not claiming there is anything particularly malfunctioning in their brains.
My disconnect with the group here comes down to entitlement, I think. I think that from the moment the ball is in the air, a competitor in that basketball game owes their opponent nothing. The rules/parameters of the game are concrete and both sides have their behavior within the game spelled out to them. I feel like if people think that the rules of basketball should be adjusted to protect people's feelings, they should be advocates of rule changes, not coach-roasting.
If this thread was about advocacy to institute a mercy rule in that basketball league rather than assigning blame for an abstract problem, my position would be vastly different.
<< <i>
<< <i>to assume that anyone who sees this differently suffers from some kind of cognitive disorder is profoundly narrow minded. >>
Careful Boo, this thought treads onto many threads and attitudes held on these boards and they don't like being painted with that brush.
I'm not one for showing pity, especially as the stakes increase. It is a dog-eat-dog world, but as I said, and I think you agree, there is a level of sportsmanship or professionalism that needs to exist at all times in all walks of life. However, I think the level of compassion becomes less and less as you get closer and closer to adulthood. >>
Compassion is great! I like compassion. But on the basketball court? In a competitive league? Seems out of place to me there because of the subjectivity problem.
And I have to reaffirm that I think the most sportsmanly, respectful way to behave is to play your game to the best of your ability from the first whistle to the last. If both teams are doing that and one of them loses by 100, so be it. A 100 point loss isn't inherently disrespectful or incompassionate.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>to assume that anyone who sees this differently suffers from some kind of cognitive disorder is profoundly narrow minded. >>
Careful Boo, this thought treads onto many threads and attitudes held on these boards and they don't like being painted with that brush.
I'm not one for showing pity, especially as the stakes increase. It is a dog-eat-dog world, but as I said, and I think you agree, there is a level of sportsmanship or professionalism that needs to exist at all times in all walks of life. However, I think the level of compassion becomes less and less as you get closer and closer to adulthood. >>
Compassion is great! I like compassion. But on the basketball court? In a competitive league? Seems out of place to me there because of the subjectivity problem.
And I have to reaffirm that I think the most sportsmanly, respectful way to behave is to play your game to the best of your ability from the first whistle to the last. If both teams are doing that and one of them loses by 100, so be it. A 100 point loss isn't inherently disrespectful or incompassionate. >>
Again, I don't have anything about playing the game hard and to the best of one's ability, but to employ a full court press and attempt to run up the score is not sportsmanship. Competitive league or not!
The fact that the parents of Covenant displayed such actions during the game and that some on here don't see that the way this game played out as an issue is a reflection on our society as a whole.
Please, don't take me as some bleeding heart, but there is a point at which one that is entrusted to develop our youth has to draw the line and become a teacher.
This borders on being in the same boat as the high school baseball coach that instructed his pitcher to drill a handicapped batter because he didn't think he should be in the league. The batter should've been pitched to and struck out on 3 strikes if he didn't belong. Dallas Academy should've been defeated, but they didn't need to be beaned.
Mike
DALLAS - The coach of a Texas high school basketball team that beat another team 100-0 was fired Sunday, the same day he sent an e-mail to a newspaper saying he will not apologize “for a wide-margin victory when my girls played with honor and integrity.”
Kyle Queal, the headmaster for Covenant School, said in The Dallas Morning News online edition that he could not answer if the firing was a direct result of coach Micah Grimes’ e-mail disagreeing with administrators who called the blowout “shameful.”
Queal did not immediately answer phone messages or e-mail from The Associated Press.
On its Web site last week, Covenant, a private Christian school, posted a statement regretting the outcome of its Jan. 13 shutout win over Dallas Academy. “It is shameful and an embarrassment that this happened. This clearly does not reflect a Christlike and honorable approach to competition,” said the statement, signed by Queal and board chair Todd Doshier.
Grimes, who has been criticized for letting the game get so far out of hand, made it clear in the e-mail Sunday to the newspaper that he does not agree with his school’s assessment.
“In response to the statement posted on The Covenant School Web site, I do not agree with the apology or the notion that the Covenant School girls basketball team should feel embarrassed or ashamed,” Grimes wrote in the e-mail, according to the newspaper. “We played the game as it was meant to be played. My values and my beliefs would not allow me to run up the score on any opponent, and it will not allow me to apologize for a wide-margin victory when my girls played with honor and integrity.”
A phone number for Grimes could not be located by The Associated Press. The Dallas Morning News said Grimes did not respond to their repeated e-mail requests for a telephone interview.
There was no answer at a number listed for Doshier.
A parent who attended the game said Covenant continued to make 3-pointers — even in the fourth quarter. She praised the Covenant players but said spectators and an assistant coach were cheering wildly as their team edged closer to 100 points.
Covenant was up 59-0 at halftime.
Dallas Academy has eight girls on its varsity team and about 20 girls in its high school. It is winless over the last four seasons. The academy boasts of its small class sizes and specializes in teaching students struggling with “learning differences,” such as short attention spans or dyslexia.
There is no mercy rule in girls basketball that shortens the game or permits the clock to continue running when scores become one-sided. There is, however, “a golden rule” that should have applied in this contest, Edd Burleson, the director of the Texas Association of Private and Parochial Schools, said last week. Both schools are members of this association, which oversees private school athletics in Texas.
The story has received national attention, and the Dallas Academy team has been recognized for refusing to give up during the lopsided contest.
<< <i>Again, I don't have anything about playing the game hard and to the best of one's ability, but to employ a full court press and attempt to run up the score is not sportsmanship. Competitive league or not! >>
I respect your position but I disagree wholeheartedly. I think poor sportsmanship is instructing your team to lay down when shooting 3s and pressing is your best strategy, regardless of the score (in a competitive league). I also think it is very presumptuous and disrespectful to give mercy to people who may not want it.
Am I really the only one here who would be deeply offended as a competitor if my opponent took so much pity on me during a blowout that they stopped playing their best game as a measure of protecting my feelings or in the interest of appearing classy?
I really wish that sportsmanship could be better defined by those who are going to great lengths to call people out on it. Why is it sportsman-like to outscore a team making lay-ups, but not by shooting threes? What if the crappy team is better at defending threes?!?? At that point, does sportsmanship dictate that you ONLY shoot threes?!? Or maybe take it a step further and sportsmanship means that you can only attempt half court bombs? That way, you're basically just turning the ball over the whole time. Would that accomplish the goal of sportsmanship?
Why is it sportsman-like to defend on one half of the court, but not the other? Is it less sportsman-like to defend with your arms as well as your feet during a blow-out? Or should you just not defend at all? Should you pretend to defend? Is it more sportsman-like to teach the kids to FAKE playing hard?
And what is the exact lead where everyone should know to stop playing their hardest? That's important because apparently one misstep by a coach can determine whether or not he/she is being a classy sportsman or a tacky loser.
<< <i>The story is below. Sounds like a case of insubordination to me. If he were my employee, I would have fired him as well for taking his disagreement to the newspaper. >>
That sounds to be exactly the case. If he didn't want to apologize, well...fine for him, but he should have known to keep his mouth shut.
And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who would attempt to poison and destroy my brothers!! And you will know my name is the LORD when I lay my vengeance upon thee!!!
/////////////
Yup.
And, for that reason alone, telling kids that the subject game was an aberration
is a major disservice to them.
............
................
..................
In the earliest version of the AP blast......
"...specializes in teaching students with “learning differences,” such as short attention spans or dyslexia."
In the latest version.......
"....specializes in teaching students struggling with “learning differences,” such as short attention spans or dyslexia."
(EDIT TO ADD: The one I called "earliest version" was a YAHOO run of the story.
I am looking for a link. The point was that the word "struggling" is gratuitous, editorial,
and subjective in nature.)
The leftwing media is totally out of control. They will say anything
to grab eyeballs and "touch" America's new passion for compassion.
Amazing that they are now trying to soften-up sports fans.
Make 'em laugh, make 'em cry, tell 'em some lies and say goodbye.
Hopefully, ALL such media will go broke, SOON.
////////////////////////////////
Both of the subject schools have a religious affiliation.
I graudated from a religious high-school, and played sports there
for two+ years.
I was coached by YMCA guys as a tiny kid, and I was coached by
public school employees.
NEVER was I treated as brutally as I was at the hands of the
"religious" coaches. Thank all that is holy that I encountered
those guys before I got to college, and moved on into the real
world.
..........
..............
...................
The winning coach should have been fired for refusing to go
along with his employer's sell out. THAT is how the real world
works; you don't bash your employer, unless you are ready to
find a new one.
I hope the guy gets a great new position working for an outfit
whose parents want their kids to learn that sports are WAR.
In the same sense that business and life are WAR.
///////////
<< <i>The leftwing media is totally out of control. They will say anything
to grab eyeballs and "touch" America's new passion for compassion.
Amazing that they are now trying to soften-up sports fans. >>
Leftwing media? Oh, boy . . . Let's just try the media in general.
This isn't about political affiliation.
Oh, wait . . . slippery slope.
my question then is why stop and stall the ball with 4:00 left after you hit 100?? what changed with your game plan at that point? if 59-0 at the half was not enough to get some other (under classman/player that don't play much-less talented) players some court time against a team that hasn't won in 4 years then he should probably not be coaching anyway. there is a classy way to win big and show the game some respect/integrity and scoring and pressing until you get to 100 and then stalling the ball is not it.
nobody asked him to not play his game, but pressing and calling plays for 3 pointers up by 60+ against that team should be questioned.
collecting RAW Topps baseball cards 1952 Highs to 1972. looking for collector grade (somewhere between psa 4-7 condition). let me know what you have, I'll take it, I want to finish sets, I must have something you can use for trade.
looking for Topps 71-72 hi's-62-53-54-55-59, I have these sets started
<< <i>My values and my beliefs would not allow me to run up the score on any opponent >>
I take it 100-0 to him is not running up the score? Does the lead need to be in 4 to 5 digits before he sends in the subs?
By waiting until the score was 100-0 to send in subs and then change the gameplan confirms they were trying to achieve that score IE run it up to humiliate their opponent by some arbitrary score. If it was 100-0 and they played all their subs, brought some JV and worked on all their sets and defense then it would have been ok in my book.
It was my high school basketball team
We were really good that year
Top 10 in the state easy
The team we play was really bad
what made it worse was 5 starters and 1 sub were all the players that showed up for the game
so it meant we had to keep our starters in
we didn't press
we played a zone defence
the only shots we took in the second half were lay-ups
we walked the ball down the court
they even cut the game time by 2 minutes in both 3rd and 4th quarters
I personally scored 37 points (my new personal record) so i felt felt fine
Had we given 100% and tried i believe that we could have scored 200 points that game
crazy huh???
I see many problems with this whole story. First, is why would either team play this game? The winning team no doubt knew there would be no competition as the losing team undoubtedly knew they could not win. Secondly, why is there a "learning" disability school playing a regular school to begin with? Finally, why the outcry?
My opinion is that if you step onto the court in a legitimate competition, you take your chances. If you win big or lose big, you take from it what you can and go from there. You are doing a disservice to the winners if you tell them to let up as you are to the losers if they know that the other team is feeling pity for them. Life is not that way and too many times kids grow up thinking that they will be compensated in life as they were as a kid, whether it be in sports, academics or anything else and by the time they realize that life just doesnt work that way, its too late.
I learned more from my failures growing up than I did my successes. If someone had not defeated me in whatever I was doing, I wouldnt have learned how to be successful. Everyone wants to play the victim nowadays and while I realize that the kids themselves probably are not crying about it, someone is or else it wouldnt have made headlines. The parents/media are turning these kids into victims because of a sporting event, nice job guys.
Steve
<< <i>Who should be fired is the person that allowed for those 2 teams to play. >>
Both schools are members of the Texas Association of Private and Parochial Schools - probably a league game. You gotta play who's on your schedule. Having said that, someone shoulda called off the dogs at some point. A parent, an administrator, somebody. 3-pointers and full-court press when the game was clearly out of reach, say past 50-0, was not a good decision by the winning school's coaching staff.
Dodgers collection scans | Brett Butler registry | 1978 Dodgers - straight 9s, homie
the team needed to play the other teams frosh. team
In any event you can't ask a team to lay down on an opponent as that IMO is worse then going all out.
Or...if the school that got beat can't find other opponents and are forced to play in games like this they have to learn to suck it up.
I have to think that the winning coach had his 3rd string out there for most of that game.
Steve