Greatest pitchers of all-time

austinchau · January 26, 2009 6:18AM

Found this article that rates all time greatest pitchers -

http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/the-all-time-best-pitchers/

Interesting notes:
- Clemens is #3!
- Bert Blyleven i(#22) s above Nolan Ryan (#30).
- modern days players including: Maddux (#8), Randy Johnson (#17) and Glavine (#26)

PoppaJ · January 26, 2009 6:40AM

Considering the article is from February 08, 2007, it probably needs to be reconciled a bit, given the current Clemens saga, and not factoring in RJ's run to 300.

PoppaJ

SidePocket · January 26, 2009 7:22AM

It's hard to compare different eras, but in the modern era I would never pick Greg Maddox over Bob Gibson. And Whitey Ford needs to move way up.

samspop · January 26, 2009 7:29AM

Longevity, yes, but to put Nolan Ryan at #30??????

He did throw 7 no-hitters and was one of the most feared pitchers in the game for over 2 decades!

VitoCo1972 · January 26, 2009 7:39AM

My favorite fabled baseball player...ad what a great story about the duel with Walter Johnson

13. Mordecai Brown (203 WSAB/296 WS): "Three Finger" Brown vs. Christy Mathewson may have been the greatest pitching rivalry in baseball history. The two faced each other 25 times, often with a pennant at stake, and Brown won 13 times, lost 11 and had one no decision. The rivalry reached its peak in that June 13, 1905 game, when Brown one-hit the Giants but lost to Mathewson, who no-hit the Cubs.

69Cubs · January 26, 2009 7:56AM

Where is Sandy Koufax???

Mike

Gonblott · January 26, 2009 8:29AM

<< Where is Sandy Koufax???

Mike >>

I said the same thing!

grote15 · January 26, 2009 8:36AM

It's absolutely ridiculous that guys like Hunter and Sutter are in the HOF and Blyleven is not..

Blackie · January 26, 2009 8:41AM

Just my opinion.............

Seaver
Ryan
Gibson
Carlton
Young, Cy (greatest possilby)
Lefty Grove
Pete Alexander
and ole Warren Spahn

lanemyer85 · January 26, 2009 8:50AM

while I put stock into the win shares system, it's impossible to compare eras. Back in the Johnson/Mathewson eras they pretty much had 2 pitches, FB & curve. I disagree on Whitey Ford though. Seems about the right place for him. He was a big game pitcher but so were Jack Morris and Curt Schilling both solid comps for Ford's career if you breakdown the numbers. He like most every other overrated Yankee (Richardson, Rizzuto etc) benefitted greatly from those great Yankee teams. If it weren't for the playoffs and his career Win % (team dependent) he wouldn't be in the HOF. 236 Wins and a mediocre K rate. For example in his prime (1960) season he posted a 1.39 WHIP and he made the all-star team. A good WHIP for a SP these days is 1.25 and under and he put up those numbers in a pitcher's era.

ToneD · January 26, 2009 8:56AM

Very interesting. I love reading these lists. I always learn something new about someone. Ryan way too low and Koufax missing?? Now lets see some cards of these guys.

JackWESQ · January 26, 2009 9:24AM

I didn't see Koufax on there ... and that's absolutely correct.

/s/ JackWESQ

Tabe · January 26, 2009 9:51AM

While you could argue with some of the guys above Ryan - Hal Newhouser?!? - I think #30 for him might be too HIGH. He was a .500 pitcher with an "eh" ERA (ERA was 3.19, career ERA+ was only 111). He's a guy whose "stuff" never REALLY translated into results. Was a HOFer? Sure. But top 30 all-time? No. His average year was 13-12 with a 3.19 ERA. That's not exactly HOF-level.

Tabe

bigwilli · January 26, 2009 10:14AM

Wheres John Rocker...................

ajw · January 26, 2009 10:15AM

<< While you could argue with some of the guys above Ryan - Hal Newhouser?!? - I think #30 for him might be too HIGH. He was a .500 pitcher with an "eh" ERA (ERA was 3.19, career ERA+ was only 111). He's a guy whose "stuff" never REALLY translated into results. Was a HOFer? Sure. But top 30 all-time? No. His average year was 13-12 with a 3.19 ERA. That's not exactly HOF-level.

Tabe >>

Ryan was a great player.

Ryan is also one of the most overrated players of all time.

He gave up very few hits, and struck out a lot of batters.

He also walked a ton of guys, hit more than his share and threw a bunch of balls to the backstop.

Add it all up and he was undeniably exciting to watch, and a pitcher I'd rather have as a teammate than an opponent, but he is not one of the top five, ten or twenty pitchers of all time.

IchiroDeported · January 26, 2009 10:33AM

any top 10 list should include Spahn.

Blackie · January 26, 2009 10:35AM

Very well put..........I included Warren

IJustLoveCards · January 26, 2009 10:43AM

here are a few of my top 10 pitchers:

IchiroDeported · January 26, 2009 10:49AM

i just noticed in that article that bob feller ranks below Tom Glavine.

gimme a break.

joestalin · January 26, 2009 10:59AM

Where is Cole Hamels?

I mean, cmon

IchiroDeported · January 26, 2009 11:06AM

cole is sniffing everyone elses jock.

alnavman · January 26, 2009 11:18AM

What number was Diego Segui on the list???

divecchia · January 26, 2009 11:19AM

Nice article...

Thanks for the link...Donato

otwcards · January 26, 2009 11:19AM

My Top-10 (11) Modern Era Pitchers (1955-Present):

#1. Sandy Koufax (Short career, but dominant!!!)
#2. Bob Gibson (If you never saw him pitch, think Nolan Ryan/Pedro Martinez with a bigger attitude)
#3. Roger Clemens (Steroids or not!!!)
#4. Juan Marichal (Most Underrated pitcher of his era)
#5. Greg Maddux (A master that made it look simple)
#6. Steve Carlton (Consistency)
#7. Tom Seaver (Wouldv'e been like Marichal if not for NY and '69)
#8. Randy Johnson/Nolan Ryan (Tie)
#9. Ferguson Jenkins (Just won regardless of where he played)
#10. Ron Guidry (See Koufax)

Hoopster · January 26, 2009 11:55AM

Looking at that article briefly, the reason why koufax is not on the list is because the players are measured vs. a replacement level player.

That is, the more innings they throw at a rate above what a typical replacement player would throw, the more they are getting credit for.

As a result, Koufax's six years of dominance is not going to contend with Phil Niekro's thousand years of pitching better than league average.

The same goes for Pedro Martinez. He is ranked 35 on that list, but the writer mentions that Pedro has the number one ranking on peak value. But Pedro(like Koufax) doesn't have a lot of innings, so his career value isn't going to be as high as others.

Somebody mentioned Spahn. He is on there. He is at number 6.

nam812 · January 26, 2009 12:27PM

Was there ever a better pitcher than this one?

IchiroDeported · January 26, 2009 12:30PM

im one uppin' you nick

skilow · January 26, 2009 1:14PM

obviously neglecting Hershiser.

jeffcbay · January 26, 2009 2:14PM

<<

>>

I like this one, because my Dad has a shirt that says that, and his name is George! lol

Overrated · January 26, 2009 2:51PM

Babe Ruth?

Tabe · January 26, 2009 5:40PM

<< My Top-10 (11) Modern Era Pitchers (1955-Present):

#1. Sandy Koufax (Short career, but dominant!!!)

#10. Ron Guidry (See Koufax) >>

I would argue with Guidry. 14 years isn't a particularly short career and he only broke the 3.00 ERA barrier once the last 9 years of his career. Great results, yes. Dominant? Dunno if I'd go there.

Tabe

bman90278 · January 26, 2009 11:04PM

I just wanted to say that I've always been against comparing pitchers like Walter Johnson and Christy Mathewson to the modern era pitchers or players. Yes they were certainly greats, but they pitched against ex-farmers and players who weren't the caliber of players who came later on. Yes I'm sure the HOF players were incredible, but they were playing against lineups that had have watered down talent, so to speak.

redlegs · January 26, 2009 11:58PM

I was looking at Baseballreference.com and was comparing pitchers against the best hitters of their day. Here is an interesting comparison between Koufax and Gibson against Hank Aaron, Willie Mays, Roberto Clemente, and Frank Robinson. Bob Gibson completely dominated all of them.

Sandy Koufax vs.

Player.........AB....H....HR....RBI....AVG....SLG

Aaron........114..42.....7.....16......368....658
Mays...........97...27....5......14.....278....536
Clemente..107...32....6......15.....299....561
Robinson...103...24...7.......23.....233....505

Bob Gibson vs.

Player........AB....H.....HR....RBI....AVG....SLG

Aaron.......163...35.....8......26.....215.....423
Mays..........92...18.....3.......9......196.....304
Clemente..125...26....4......16.....208.....344
Robinson...83....19....4.......19.....229.....410

MooseDog · January 27, 2009 12:04AM

<< It's hard to compare different eras, but in the modern era I would never pick Greg Maddox over Bob Gibson. >>

Amen to that - whoever made that list ought to check out some film of the 1968 World Series sometime.

billwaltonsbeard · January 27, 2009 12:06AM

Brien Taylor

rube26105 · January 27, 2009 1:21AM

kool aid man was the greatest, next case

bman90278 · January 27, 2009 1:31AM

JackWESQ · January 27, 2009 2:04AM

I think, to a certain extent, the question of who is the greatest pitcher of all-time depends on what it is you want. For example, do you ...

1. Want one (1) pitcher to win one game to [literally] save humanity?
2. Want one (1) pitcher who will give your team the best chance to win a World Series for that one (1) year?
3. Want one (1) pitcher who will give your team the best chance to win a World Series for twenty (20) years?

If you are looking for number 1, I probably would go with Randy Johnson or Pedro Martinez, e.g., who, in their absolute prime, for one game, was absolutely unhittable/unbeatable.
If you are looking for number 2, I probably would go with Bob Gibson (1968) or Lefty Grove (1931), e.g., who had that one crazy dominating year.
If you are looking for number 3, I probably would go with Greg Maddux or Warren Spahn, e.g, who, season after season, you could count on in giving you win after win.

/s/ JackWESQ

Hoopster · January 27, 2009 2:51AM

<< I was looking at Baseballreference.com and was comparing pitchers against the best hitters of their day. Here is an interesting comparison between Koufax and Gibson against Hank Aaron, Willie Mays, Roberto Clemente, and Frank Robinson. Bob Gibson completely dominated all of them.

Sandy Koufax vs.

Player.........AB....H....HR....RBI....AVG....SLG

Aaron........114..42.....7.....16......368....658
Mays...........97...27....5......14.....278....536
Clemente..107...32....6......15.....299....561
Robinson...103...24...7.......23.....233....505

Bob Gibson vs.

Player........AB....H.....HR....RBI....AVG....SLG

Aaron.......163...35.....8......26.....215.....423
Mays..........92...18.....3.......9......196.....304
Clemente..125...26....4......16.....208.....344
Robinson...83....19....4.......19.....229.....410 >>

Redlegs, that is skewed some in that Koufax was a lefty, and all the hitters you put on there were righties.

For example Koufax held Willie McCovey to an OPS of .427. Bob Gibson held McCovey to an OPS of .851.

Picking out a few random examples is a fun exercise, but what matters is the totality of their performance.

SS · January 27, 2009 7:56AM

I would be happy to build a team around the guy that ranked #30 on that list.

PowderedH2O · January 27, 2009 8:53AM

I started watching baseball in the early 70's and in my lifetime the best pitcher I've ever seen is Steve Carlton. He was like Greg Maddux with a stronger arm.

otwcards · January 27, 2009 9:46AM

<< 

<< My Top-10 (11) Modern Era Pitchers (1955-Present):

#1. Sandy Koufax (Short career, but dominant!!!)

#10. Ron Guidry (See Koufax) >>

I would argue with Guidry. 14 years isn't a particularly short career and he only broke the 3.00 ERA barrier once the last 9 years of his career. Great results, yes. Dominant? Dunno if I'd go there.

Tabe >>

Tabe:

Take a look at Guidry's dominance during his peak 5 years. Look at the career numbers for Guidry and Koufax. They are startling similar.

On a side note, if you want to see something interesting, take a look at Gale Sayers career rushing numbers than put them side by side with Steve Young's career rushing numbers. Then realize that Young was a quarterback.

Also, one pitcher that will never get on these lists, but should be . . . Mariano Rivera! 13 consecutive seasons of complete dominance and he's done it with basically one pitch!

otwcards · January 27, 2009 9:51AM

<< I started watching baseball in the early 70's and in my lifetime the best pitcher I've ever seen is Steve Carlton. He was like Greg Maddux with a stronger arm. >>

Why does everyone act like Maddux was a marshmallow pitcher? For the first 15 years of his career, he was consistently in the mid to low 90's (like Carlton and Gibson). When he needed to muscle up, he could hit 96-97 on the gun. However, since he was a cerebral pitcher, he was able to take stuff off his pitches to get batters out rather than over power them. That, and the extra 6 inches he and Glavine used to get on the outside corner...

PowderedH2O · January 27, 2009 11:55AM

I have the greatest respect for Maddux, but Carlton was brutal. Kinda like Gibson. NOBODY ever had a better slider than Lefty. I've seen so many great/good hitters look foolish against that pitch. The only close pitch I have ever seen was Valenzuela's screwball when he first came up. Now, for an individual season, the best I ever saw was Doc Gooden in 1985. Oh, what could have been....

calaban7 · January 27, 2009 11:56AM

<< Where is Cole Hamels?

I mean, cmon >>

Dude , I think you be sniffing too much trumpet cleaner

fkw · January 29, 2009 1:57PM

Rube Waddell??

HoofHearted · January 29, 2009 2:16PM

It's always interesting reading about someone else's view on the best of the best. I was hoping to see Walter Johnson at the top of the list -- and there he was! And here he is:

Tabe · January 29, 2009 5:20PM

<< On a side note, if you want to see something interesting, take a look at Gale Sayers career rushing numbers than put them side by side with Steve Young's career rushing numbers. Then realize that Young was a quarterback. >>

Just one of the reasons I've long had Steve Young at #1 as the best NFL QB of all-time.

Tabe

Tabe · January 29, 2009 5:27PM

<< Tabe:

Take a look at Guidry's dominance during his peak 5 years. Look at the career numbers for Guidry and Koufax. They are startling similar. >>

Yeah, the career numbers are similar. Of course, Koufax's peak was vastly superior to Guidry's but your point isn't lost.

Here's why I said Guidry wasn't dominant: To me, dominant guys get a lot of Ks and don't give up a lot of hits. They don't give up a lot of runs. They usually throw a no-hitter. Guidry struck out 200 guys just twice (one of those being 201). After 1979, he was a hit per inning pitcher. He only broke the 3.00 ERA barrier four times. And no no-hitters.

So, yeah, great results - 3 20-win seasons, a tremendous winning percentage, and that magical 1978 season - but overall not a dominant guy.

Tabe

Greatest pitchers of all-time

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