Greatest pitchers of all-time
austinchau
Posts: 360
Found this article that rates all time greatest pitchers -
http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/the-all-time-best-pitchers/
Interesting notes:
- Clemens is #3!
- Bert Blyleven i(#22) s above Nolan Ryan (#30).
- modern days players including: Maddux (#8), Randy Johnson (#17) and Glavine (#26)
http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/the-all-time-best-pitchers/
Interesting notes:
- Clemens is #3!
- Bert Blyleven i(#22) s above Nolan Ryan (#30).
- modern days players including: Maddux (#8), Randy Johnson (#17) and Glavine (#26)
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PoppaJ
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He did throw 7 no-hitters and was one of the most feared pitchers in the game for over 2 decades!
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13. Mordecai Brown (203 WSAB/296 WS): "Three Finger" Brown vs. Christy Mathewson may have been the greatest pitching rivalry in baseball history. The two faced each other 25 times, often with a pennant at stake, and Brown won 13 times, lost 11 and had one no decision. The rivalry reached its peak in that June 13, 1905 game, when Brown one-hit the Giants but lost to Mathewson, who no-hit the Cubs.
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Mike
<< <i>Where is Sandy Koufax???
Mike >>
I said the same thing!
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and ole Warren Spahn
/s/ JackWESQ
Tabe
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<< <i>While you could argue with some of the guys above Ryan - Hal Newhouser?!? - I think #30 for him might be too HIGH. He was a .500 pitcher with an "eh" ERA (ERA was 3.19, career ERA+ was only 111). He's a guy whose "stuff" never REALLY translated into results. Was a HOFer? Sure. But top 30 all-time? No. His average year was 13-12 with a 3.19 ERA. That's not exactly HOF-level.
Tabe >>
Ryan was a great player.
Ryan is also one of the most overrated players of all time.
He gave up very few hits, and struck out a lot of batters.
He also walked a ton of guys, hit more than his share and threw a bunch of balls to the backstop.
Add it all up and he was undeniably exciting to watch, and a pitcher I'd rather have as a teammate than an opponent, but he is not one of the top five, ten or twenty pitchers of all time.
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#1. Sandy Koufax (Short career, but dominant!!!)
#2. Bob Gibson (If you never saw him pitch, think Nolan Ryan/Pedro Martinez with a bigger attitude)
#3. Roger Clemens (Steroids or not!!!)
#4. Juan Marichal (Most Underrated pitcher of his era)
#5. Greg Maddux (A master that made it look simple)
#6. Steve Carlton (Consistency)
#7. Tom Seaver (Wouldv'e been like Marichal if not for NY and '69)
#8. Randy Johnson/Nolan Ryan (Tie)
#9. Ferguson Jenkins (Just won regardless of where he played)
#10. Ron Guidry (See Koufax)
That is, the more innings they throw at a rate above what a typical replacement player would throw, the more they are getting credit for.
As a result, Koufax's six years of dominance is not going to contend with Phil Niekro's thousand years of pitching better than league average.
The same goes for Pedro Martinez. He is ranked 35 on that list, but the writer mentions that Pedro has the number one ranking on peak value. But Pedro(like Koufax) doesn't have a lot of innings, so his career value isn't going to be as high as others.
Somebody mentioned Spahn. He is on there. He is at number 6.
<< <i>
I like this one, because my Dad has a shirt that says that, and his name is George! lol
<< <i>My Top-10 (11) Modern Era Pitchers (1955-Present):
#1. Sandy Koufax (Short career, but dominant!!!)
#10. Ron Guidry (See Koufax) >>
I would argue with Guidry. 14 years isn't a particularly short career and he only broke the 3.00 ERA barrier once the last 9 years of his career. Great results, yes. Dominant? Dunno if I'd go there.
Tabe
Sandy Koufax vs.
Player.........AB....H....HR....RBI....AVG....SLG
Aaron........114..42.....7.....16......368....658
Mays...........97...27....5......14.....278....536
Clemente..107...32....6......15.....299....561
Robinson...103...24...7.......23.....233....505
Bob Gibson vs.
Player........AB....H.....HR....RBI....AVG....SLG
Aaron.......163...35.....8......26.....215.....423
Mays..........92...18.....3.......9......196.....304
Clemente..125...26....4......16.....208.....344
Robinson...83....19....4.......19.....229.....410
<< <i>It's hard to compare different eras, but in the modern era I would never pick Greg Maddox over Bob Gibson. >>
Amen to that - whoever made that list ought to check out some film of the 1968 World Series sometime.
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1. Want one (1) pitcher to win one game to [literally] save humanity?
2. Want one (1) pitcher who will give your team the best chance to win a World Series for that one (1) year?
3. Want one (1) pitcher who will give your team the best chance to win a World Series for twenty (20) years?
If you are looking for number 1, I probably would go with Randy Johnson or Pedro Martinez, e.g., who, in their absolute prime, for one game, was absolutely unhittable/unbeatable.
If you are looking for number 2, I probably would go with Bob Gibson (1968) or Lefty Grove (1931), e.g., who had that one crazy dominating year.
If you are looking for number 3, I probably would go with Greg Maddux or Warren Spahn, e.g, who, season after season, you could count on in giving you win after win.
/s/ JackWESQ
<< <i>I was looking at Baseballreference.com and was comparing pitchers against the best hitters of their day. Here is an interesting comparison between Koufax and Gibson against Hank Aaron, Willie Mays, Roberto Clemente, and Frank Robinson. Bob Gibson completely dominated all of them.
Sandy Koufax vs.
Player.........AB....H....HR....RBI....AVG....SLG
Aaron........114..42.....7.....16......368....658
Mays...........97...27....5......14.....278....536
Clemente..107...32....6......15.....299....561
Robinson...103...24...7.......23.....233....505
Bob Gibson vs.
Player........AB....H.....HR....RBI....AVG....SLG
Aaron.......163...35.....8......26.....215.....423
Mays..........92...18.....3.......9......196.....304
Clemente..125...26....4......16.....208.....344
Robinson...83....19....4.......19.....229.....410 >>
Redlegs, that is skewed some in that Koufax was a lefty, and all the hitters you put on there were righties.
For example Koufax held Willie McCovey to an OPS of .427. Bob Gibson held McCovey to an OPS of .851.
Picking out a few random examples is a fun exercise, but what matters is the totality of their performance.
<< <i>
<< <i>My Top-10 (11) Modern Era Pitchers (1955-Present):
#1. Sandy Koufax (Short career, but dominant!!!)
#10. Ron Guidry (See Koufax) >>
I would argue with Guidry. 14 years isn't a particularly short career and he only broke the 3.00 ERA barrier once the last 9 years of his career. Great results, yes. Dominant? Dunno if I'd go there.
Tabe >>
Tabe:
Take a look at Guidry's dominance during his peak 5 years. Look at the career numbers for Guidry and Koufax. They are startling similar.
On a side note, if you want to see something interesting, take a look at Gale Sayers career rushing numbers than put them side by side with Steve Young's career rushing numbers. Then realize that Young was a quarterback.
Also, one pitcher that will never get on these lists, but should be . . . Mariano Rivera! 13 consecutive seasons of complete dominance and he's done it with basically one pitch!
<< <i>I started watching baseball in the early 70's and in my lifetime the best pitcher I've ever seen is Steve Carlton. He was like Greg Maddux with a stronger arm. >>
Why does everyone act like Maddux was a marshmallow pitcher? For the first 15 years of his career, he was consistently in the mid to low 90's (like Carlton and Gibson). When he needed to muscle up, he could hit 96-97 on the gun. However, since he was a cerebral pitcher, he was able to take stuff off his pitches to get batters out rather than over power them. That, and the extra 6 inches he and Glavine used to get on the outside corner...
<< <i>Where is Cole Hamels?
I mean, cmon >>
Dude , I think you be sniffing too much trumpet cleaner
<< <i>On a side note, if you want to see something interesting, take a look at Gale Sayers career rushing numbers than put them side by side with Steve Young's career rushing numbers. Then realize that Young was a quarterback. >>
Just one of the reasons I've long had Steve Young at #1 as the best NFL QB of all-time.
Tabe
<< <i>Tabe:
Take a look at Guidry's dominance during his peak 5 years. Look at the career numbers for Guidry and Koufax. They are startling similar. >>
Yeah, the career numbers are similar. Of course, Koufax's peak was vastly superior to Guidry's but your point isn't lost.
Here's why I said Guidry wasn't dominant: To me, dominant guys get a lot of Ks and don't give up a lot of hits. They don't give up a lot of runs. They usually throw a no-hitter. Guidry struck out 200 guys just twice (one of those being 201). After 1979, he was a hit per inning pitcher. He only broke the 3.00 ERA barrier four times. And no no-hitters.
So, yeah, great results - 3 20-win seasons, a tremendous winning percentage, and that magical 1978 season - but overall not a dominant guy.
Tabe