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Delivery/insurance/chargeback conundrum.
coinpictures
Posts: 5,345 ✭✭✭
I've hit an issue with nonreceipt of merchandise, and it's an unfortunate situation where someone has to lose.
Scenario:
This is NOT an eBay or PayPal situation. Merchandise was purchased from an auction house, paid for by credit card. I have bought from this auction house before, without issue. Due to the high dollar value involved, I have them ship to my work address rather than home. Previously they have always shipped by UPS Ground. The parcels always come directly to a secretary in our office who knows me. No problems in the 4 years I've been here.
For whatever reason, this time the auction house decided to send the parcel by USPS, 1st class insured. No certified mail. No restricted delivery. This change was NOT at my request.
It never got to me. According to the auction house, the USPS insurance information shows that the parcel was signed for in early December, and it gives the person's name. I tracked that person down and they work in the mail room. This person does not recall ever signing for a package for me (although this person doesn't know me personally, so I doubt that they would recall, given the amount of mail that goes through there).
Once signed for, the parcel would have simply been put in my department's mail stack and students would have delivered to our mailboxes. Not secure in any way shape or form.
Since the parcel was signed for, presumably USPS is off the hook on the insurance claim. I don't know that the University or this employee has any personal liability, since she didn't deviate from their normal procedures. I asked my credit card company what to do, and they say that I will be covered if I want to do a chargeback, since I never signed for receipt of the merchandise (I know that Fed Ex has shipping options where the signature MUST be of the addressee, similar to USPS restricted delivery; presumably UPS has similar options).
The auction house shipped. USPS delivered. The package then went into the ether (or someone's pocket).
Unfortunately someone has to lose. The amount in question is >> $1,000.
While I'm surprised that there aren't special considerations given to insured parcels here at work (such as hold the package, give the addressee a slip, and have them come get the parcel), I have some issues with the way the auction house handled this. WHY did they change the shipping method? (I've not been able to get an answer to this). Why did they not use restricted delivery? I've always thought that the big blue "INSURED FOR OVER $200" sticker is a big flag that says "STEAL ME!!"
Because this is a campus environment, had I known that the auction house was going to switch to USPS, I would have asked them to ship to a different address or paid extra for UPS/Fed Ex. The problem is that they decided to make that change on their own.
What would you do?
Scenario:
This is NOT an eBay or PayPal situation. Merchandise was purchased from an auction house, paid for by credit card. I have bought from this auction house before, without issue. Due to the high dollar value involved, I have them ship to my work address rather than home. Previously they have always shipped by UPS Ground. The parcels always come directly to a secretary in our office who knows me. No problems in the 4 years I've been here.
For whatever reason, this time the auction house decided to send the parcel by USPS, 1st class insured. No certified mail. No restricted delivery. This change was NOT at my request.
It never got to me. According to the auction house, the USPS insurance information shows that the parcel was signed for in early December, and it gives the person's name. I tracked that person down and they work in the mail room. This person does not recall ever signing for a package for me (although this person doesn't know me personally, so I doubt that they would recall, given the amount of mail that goes through there).
Once signed for, the parcel would have simply been put in my department's mail stack and students would have delivered to our mailboxes. Not secure in any way shape or form.
Since the parcel was signed for, presumably USPS is off the hook on the insurance claim. I don't know that the University or this employee has any personal liability, since she didn't deviate from their normal procedures. I asked my credit card company what to do, and they say that I will be covered if I want to do a chargeback, since I never signed for receipt of the merchandise (I know that Fed Ex has shipping options where the signature MUST be of the addressee, similar to USPS restricted delivery; presumably UPS has similar options).
The auction house shipped. USPS delivered. The package then went into the ether (or someone's pocket).
Unfortunately someone has to lose. The amount in question is >> $1,000.
While I'm surprised that there aren't special considerations given to insured parcels here at work (such as hold the package, give the addressee a slip, and have them come get the parcel), I have some issues with the way the auction house handled this. WHY did they change the shipping method? (I've not been able to get an answer to this). Why did they not use restricted delivery? I've always thought that the big blue "INSURED FOR OVER $200" sticker is a big flag that says "STEAL ME!!"
Because this is a campus environment, had I known that the auction house was going to switch to USPS, I would have asked them to ship to a different address or paid extra for UPS/Fed Ex. The problem is that they decided to make that change on their own.
What would you do?
0
Comments
<< <i> I've always thought that the big blue "INSURED FOR OVER $200" sticker is a big flag that says "STEAL ME!!"
What would you do? >>
I'm not sure what you could do in this situation. Is it possible that a student stole it? From now on, get stuff shipped to your residence.
Well, then spring came and the snow melted, and behind the front bushes was my package! I was lucky, there was no damage to the coins. If it would have actually gone missing, I would have been out $7000.
<< <i>Well, then spring came and the snow melted, and behind the front bushes was my package! >>
<< <i>Did not the auction house send you email notification of how and when your item shipped? >>
Not until I inquired after a month of waiting for the package. This auction house is VERY haphazard about their notifications.
1/2 Cents
U.S. Revenue Stamps
edited to add...
<< <i>Seems to me that if you have something shipped to your work addy it is done AT YOUR RISK. >>
I can see this as a legitimate position to take, too. I think it depends on what the university's procedures are for accepting personal deliveries.
As far as the auction house changing shipping methods goes, unless they allow buyers to specify a delivery company and they ignored your request for UPS delivery or they shipped USPS when their stated terms were UPS shipping, I don't think you really have a claim against them- well, morally, anyway. What's legal is an entirely different matter.
Once it was signed for at the designation you selected, they are likely off the hook and now it becomes theft.
I used to have some items of higher value sent to me at work (pre-9/11 which is when my workplace changed the rules on what was allowed to be in our mail system (ie...no personal mail anymore)) and it was always a concern for those dealers shipping to me. Some mailrooms have a policy that they can/will open every package they receive. Some may not. It's a risk.
What I have changed to is to have higher value packages sent to me with signature required (or registered obviously) so I have to go to my mailing station and show ID and sign for it. May mean I do it on the way to work, lunch, way home, or on the weekend (which could be an extra few days), but it has made sure I don't have a lot of these problems.
That said, the sender was stupid for how they sent it
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
<< <i>Seems to me, the university (through the mailroom worker) accepted the package on your behalf, so the university should be responsible for seeing that the package gets delivered to you. What is the university's policy on accepting personal deliveries?
edited to add...
<< <i>Seems to me that if you have something shipped to your work addy it is done AT YOUR RISK. >>
I can see this as a legitimate position to take, too. I think it depends on what the university's procedures are for accepting personal deliveries.
As far as the auction house changing shipping methods goes, unless they allow buyers to specify a delivery company and they ignored your request for UPS delivery or they shipped USPS when their stated terms were UPS shipping, I don't think you really have a claim against them- well, morally, anyway. What's legal is an entirely different matter. >>
Most employers will not assume any risk for an employee's package delivered to their premises.
If a high value package was sent without some level of restricted delivery, it's a shipping error plain and simple. Bottom line: you ordered and didn't receive.
Check out my current listings: https://ebay.com/sch/khunt/m.html?_ipg=200&_sop=12&_rdc=1
<< <i>Most employers will not assume any risk for an employee's package delivered to their premises. >>
As a general rule, I wouldn't think they would. Which is kind of unfair to to the shipper when the buyer uses that address, is it not? Shouldn't the recipient bear some responsibility for providing a secure delivery location?
San Diego, CA
Once it was signed for at the designation you selected, they are likely off the hook and now it becomes theft.
#2,That said, the sender was stupid for how they sent it
In your world Bochiman it amazes me. Now in this case the sender is stupid. Holy Cow your craninum cracks me up.
Someone steals it the seller do what they have to do on there end, it was probably stolen or lost or misplaced and they are stupid.
I see a trend here of if you don't cross yours eyes or dot your teeshirts you guys win. I would have to take a at least 10 bottles of Motrin a day to calm down my head if I though like you geniuses
OBTW Boch you are the type that wants to have their cake and eat it too. Holy Flip Flipper you amaze the crap out of me the way you do things.
<< <i>
<< <i>Most employers will not assume any risk for an employee's package delivered to their premises. >>
As a general rule, I wouldn't think they would. Which is kind of unfair to to the shipper when the buyer uses that address, is it not? Shouldn't the recipient bear some responsibility for providing a secure delivery location? >>
Exactly. You should also notify work personnel that you are expecting a package.
<< <i>I think that the shipper did their job, but I guess the buyer could still do a charge back, go to the Postmaster and try to see who signed for the item. >>
He already knows who signed for it, but the person doesn't remember the package.
<< <i>That is a tough situation - especially so for the auction house. Because, despite all protestations to the contrary, you can and should charge back the card for non-receipt.
If a high value package was sent without some level of restricted delivery, it's a shipping error plain and simple. Bottom line: you ordered and didn't receive. >>
If his secretary accidentally threw it out with the trash would he still be entitled to a chargeback for non-receipt? I doubt it.
<< <i>Exactly. You should also notify work personnel that you are expecting a package. >>
Not applicable in this case. Since every previous parcel from this auction house had arrived via UPS Ground (which comes directly to our department), I would never have had a reason to talk to anyone in the mail room about it.
1/2 Cents
U.S. Revenue Stamps
Jonathan
YaHa, nice avatar. I scanned that one myself and even put ATC on there so no one else would want it. Now people will confuse us. Well, not if they read our posts but if they look at our avatars. LOL! Have fun with it.
<< <i>Since every previous parcel from this auction house had arrived via UPS Ground... >>
Businesses oftentimes will use more than one delivery service, depending on the circumstances involved with the shipment. Did the auction house's terms specify that UPS Ground was the specific method of shipping they would be using for your package?
Am I missing something? Where did the auction house make a mistake?
My World Coin Type Set
We have a UPS schmuck who just started signing one of our names HIMSELF and leaving the packages.
Now, he DOES need to be buzzed into our building, but if there's no one on the first floor where he enters,
he doesn't even bother to come up to the 2nd floor anymore. Ridiculous that he thinks his job is so busy he
can sign for us.
commoncents123, JrGMan2004, Coll3ctor (2), Dabigkahuna, BAJJERFAN, Boom, GRANDAM, newsman, cohodk, kklambo, seateddime, ajia, mirabela, Weather11am, keepdachange, gsa1fan, cone10
-------------------------
<< <i>Previously they have always shipped by UPS Ground. The parcels always come directly to a secretary in our office who knows me. >>
Suppose your package had been delivered via UPS Ground to the secretary this time, and then lost-stolen-misplaced-whatever. Would you consider the auction house to be responsible for the loss?
Auction House shouldn't have to pay
And falsely claim non reciept on your Credit card is just wrong, your address did recieve it
Talk to your mailroom supervisor, there is something wrong in the process for handling insured mail.
Don't plan on making any future purchases from the seller.
Government is the great fiction through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else. - Bastiat
person.
I would ask the person who delivered it if they remember who signed
for it.
I would ask the supervisor if they have other cases of missing mail
and demand some answers if there is other cases.
Plus, i would search the area 2-3 times to make sure it was not misplaced
and sitting in a corner.
<< <i>#1,Likely time to get work security on it or call in outside police.
Once it was signed for at the designation you selected, they are likely off the hook and now it becomes theft.
#2,That said, the sender was stupid for how they sent it
In your world Bochiman it amazes me. Now in this case the sender is stupid. Holy Cow your craninum cracks me up.
Someone steals it the seller do what they have to do on there end, it was probably stolen or lost or misplaced and they are stupid.
I see a trend here of if you don't cross yours eyes or dot your teeshirts you guys win. I would have to take a at least 10 bottles of Motrin a day to calm down my head if I though like you geniuses
OBTW Boch you are the type that wants to have their cake and eat it too. Holy Flip Flipper you amaze the crap out of me the way you do things.
You on some good meds again, yaha?
Love to see you offer up serious suggestions to folks in any of your posts. Without your rampant ramblings or attempts at humor, please, try to be helpful with folks.
Btw....I only see about 3-4 words of what you type anymore.....your spelling, punctuation, and actual words used are so poor that it hurts the eyes to try to read more than that.
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
<< <i>
<< <i>Exactly. You should also notify work personnel that you are expecting a package. >>
Not applicable in this case. Since every previous parcel from this auction house had arrived via UPS Ground (which comes directly to our department), I would never have had a reason to talk to anyone in the mail room in the basement about it. >>
Quit focusing on the auction house's change. It is their choice on what courier to use and the could have changed for any of a million business reasons including dissatisfaction with a lost package with UPS. You're on a dead end there. --Jerry
<< <i>
<< <i>Exactly. You should also notify work personnel that you are expecting a package. >>
Not applicable in this case. Since every previous parcel from this auction house had arrived via UPS Ground (which comes directly to our department), I would never have had a reason to talk to anyone in the mail room in the basement about it. >>
So the secretary who knows that UPS packages are coming does not handle packages arriving from the USPS? Seems to me that all of your packages should be received by one or two people; seems also that you might have a thief in your mailroom.
<< <i>
<< <i>#1,Likely time to get work security on it or call in outside police.
Once it was signed for at the designation you selected, they are likely off the hook and now it becomes theft.
#2,That said, the sender was stupid for how they sent it
In your world Bochiman it amazes me. Now in this case the sender is stupid. Holy Cow your craninum cracks me up.
Someone steals it the seller do what they have to do on there end, it was probably stolen or lost or misplaced and they are stupid.
I see a trend here of if you don't cross yours eyes or dot your teeshirts you guys win. I would have to take a at least 10 bottles of Motrin a day to calm down my head if I though like you geniuses
OBTW Boch you are the type that wants to have their cake and eat it too. Holy Flip Flipper you amaze the crap out of me the way you do things.
You on some good meds again, yaha?
Love to see you offer up serious suggestions to folks in any of your posts. Without your rampant ramblings or attempts at humor, please, try to be helpful with folks.
Btw....I only see about 3-4 words of what you type anymore.....your spelling, punctuation, and actual words used are so poor that it hurts the eyes to try to read more than that. >>
Bochiman u'sha silly fellow.
<< <i>
<< <i>Well, then spring came and the snow melted, and behind the front bushes was my package! >>
WOW !!!
Gardnerville, NV
=========================
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USPS delievered package to address specified
Your workplace employee signed for package
Workplace employee lost/misplaced/stole package
Workplace might not allow personal mail/packages
To me it sounds like you just lost some money
where the seller never SENDS the item...Since it was signed for by someone at the address you gave the auction house, I think any liability
has to be with your company ..although most medium and large companies have a policy prohibiting personal deliveries of ANYTHING. I worked for
General Dynamics which gave a 30 day notice that anything sent to the copmany address would be opened and discarded if it was not work
related.
PS
Get a post office box.
Here are the facts:
1- Previously, the auction house used UPS, and no packages were lost
2- This time, they used the USPS, and a package is missing.
3- There is proof of delivery at the mail room.
4- You told the auction house to ship to said mail room.
Here is my only assumption:
-No one explicitly told you the item would be shipped via UPS, and you simply assumed that would be the case based on previous transactions. You never specifically requested UPS either.
Here are the Auction House's responsibilities:
1- Ship the item to the address you provide
2- Ensure safe arrival TO the address
Here are your responsibilities:
1- Pay for the item
2- Tell the auction house where you would like the package shipped
3- Arrange delivery at the above address
The auction house did everything it was required to do. Namely, it delivered a package to your address. You failed to provide a safe location for delivery (whatever reason specifically the location is unsafe is irrelevant). You provided the shipping address in good faith, and ultimately, it is your responsibility to ensure that such faith can be entrusted in that address. Whether someone stole, dropped, or incinerated the package is not relevant. What is relevant is that the package arrived where you told the auction house to send it. That is the ONLY relevant fact when all is said and done.
The auction house has lived up to every responsibility they have. To say that they owe you because it did not reach your PERSON is dishonest at best. A seller cannot know how many more steps it takes for a package to reach you, so they are off the hook when the package reaches the destination you requested they ship to. If you do a chargeback, even if goes through, all that makes you is a thief. Harsh words, but true. A chargeback is punishing the seller for your mistake, and that is absolutely not right. Legally, they provided delivery to your address. Ethically, they provided delivery to your address.
At this point you can launch an investigation to find out where the package went, but you cannot do a chargeback and expect any part of that action is ethical. When all is said and done, you screwed up, and you need to fix this problem. This situation has a clear right and wrong choice. I, for one, could not respect someone who makes the wrong choice.
Jeremy
I think the Mailroom clerk will speak a different tune when interogated by a
detective assigned to the case. The supervisor of the mailroom may also know of other
missing packages not privy to public knowledge. Until an investigation is opened for theft
under their watch then they will be FORCED to inform the investigators of other missing items
that they know about.
There MAY be an ongoing INTERNAL investigation, that you may not know about, and WILL NOT unless
reported to the Police.
It doesn't help me directly, but it's good to know that things will change to make things more secure. The mail room staff realize that the error was theirs; not sure yet what (if any) compensation may result, but it's being looked into.
1/2 Cents
U.S. Revenue Stamps
<< <i>I've hit an issue with nonreceipt of merchandise, and it's an unfortunate situation where someone has to lose.
[snip snip]
What would you do? >>
Chargeback without prejudice but also without pity. The auction house, unless they are exceedingly dim, have insurance for just such a debacle.