Heritage aution of type b quarters.

cladking · January 18, 2009 9:52AM

Heritage has several high quality silver B reverse quarters on their Sunday night auction tonight.

It's great to see these get some attention.

1956 PCGS MS 66 Current bid $45
1957 PCGS MS 66 Current bid $39
1959 PCGS MS 65 Current bid $21
1960 PCGS MS 66 Current bid $60
1961 PCGS MS 65 Current bid $160
1963 PCGS MS 66 Current bid $75

Bidding ends at 11pm.

updated and corrected in edit. The '63 was not $160.

dlmtorts · January 18, 2009 10:01AM

These are good quality PCGS coins - 65' and 66's. Nice to see them going for decent prices. I still think a couple of them are underpriced right now.

cladking · January 18, 2009 10:23AM

ttt

Windycity · January 18, 2009 10:56AM

Surprised to see the 1956 lower than others... I thought that was tougher to find than some of the others/

dlmtorts · January 18, 2009 11:00AM

I think the 1956 is the rarest of them all. The prices are getting on up there. Bidding doesnt end til 11 and the current prices - as of 15 - 20 minutes ago are:

1956 $184
1957 $115
1959 $35
1960 $172.50
1961 $184
1963 $138

The 1959 is ugly imo - and I have never seen a 1959 mint set without a B reverse. So I think its the most common.

EvilEmpire · January 18, 2009 11:02AM

These should be nearing the respect they are due. If/when they become part of the registry set 'w/varieties', these could very well take off, making these prices look like bargains, given the pops on some of them. And yes, I am bidding, so go easy on me, ladies/gents!

Cam40 · January 18, 2009 12:17PM

any true variety should get recognition regardless of its popularity imo

dlmtorts · January 18, 2009 12:37PM

Update on prices - I'll update again after the auction closes at 11.

Final prices now:

1956 PCGS MS 66 $253
1957 PCGS MS 66 $138
1959 PCGS MS 65 $35
1960 PCGS MS 66 $172.50
1961 PCGS MS 66 $184
1963 PCGS MS 66 $138 --- Final price 184.

Wow - I think those are deserved prices but I am surprised to see them.

cladking · January 18, 2009 2:41PM

<< 
1956 PCGS MS 66 $253
1957 PCGS MS 66 $138
1959 PCGS MS 65 $35
1960 PCGS MS 66 $172.50
1961 PCGS MS 66 $184
1963 PCGS MS 66 $138 --- Final price 184.

>>

It seems obvious that this is the result of collectors chasing these. In these
grades they should be upgrades for most collectors.

ProofArtworkonCircs · January 18, 2009 2:58PM

<<any true variety should get recognition regardless of its popularity imo>>

Fantastic prices at last. They seem to be in line for what I consider the various rarities to be. 1956 is the toughest with 1961 second. 1957 was once considered the most common with 5% of them being B's. And of course the 1959's were in the mint sets. I know some folk here rate them differently.

Now if only the clad D mint B's could get some attention!

Boom · January 18, 2009 3:21PM

I'm not surprised by the results at all.

I've sold several for decent money.

Note - there is NO 1962 in that bunch!

ProofArtworkonCircs · January 18, 2009 3:50PM

<<Note - there is NO 1962 in that bunch! >>

Nor 1958 nor 1964 nor 1969 D - 1972 D.

EvilEmpire · January 18, 2009 11:08PM

Some of these prices realized were, indeed, bargains. Take the 1956, for example. 18 total graded, with 2 in MS66. That top pop went for short money, IMHO.

Boom, you were right, no 1962 in the lot. That coin could prove as elusive as the 1956 TB.

dlmtorts · January 19, 2009 12:37AM

I am curious how others view the relative rarity of these coins. I believe the 1956 is the toughest to find. I rate them from toughest to find to easiest to find:

1956 - toughest
1964 - 2nd toughest
1961 - about a tossup for 3rd between these 3.
1960 - "
1963 - "
1962 -
1957 -
1958 - 2nd easiest.
1959 - easiest by far.

I see that some of you believe the 62 is difficult to find. I have more of them than any other date.

19Lyds · January 19, 2009 1:07AM

Damn.

If I had paid closer attention and saw these coins, the prices would have gone much higher.

And I still would not have won any of them.

Believe it or not, you guys WANT me to bid.

Dearth · January 19, 2009 1:56AM

I think that the 1956 type b went for less then it should have. I sold 2 1956 PCGS MS-64 type b's for $190 each. Nice to see that these are getting attention, for they are very interesting varieties.

Windycity · January 19, 2009 2:19AM

I have been a Washington collector for many years and have searched hundreds if not more that a 1000 rolls for high grade coins. During that time, I have pulled all the type 2's aside. This is what I have... dates range from 57-64... no 1956 in the group.

ProofArtworkonCircs · January 19, 2009 2:34AM

1956 circulated type B's use to appear on eBay with some regularity. Perhaps that was allowed by lack of demand for circs. I haven't seen any lately.

ProofArtworkonCircs · January 19, 2009 3:28AM

I think the majority of business strike 1956 type B's are from one die that has a weakness in the leaf between the stems above T of QUARTER (by the way this leaf is longer on type

. There must be a second die since there are a very few 1956 B's where that leaf is strong.

There is a 1963 B that shows weakness in the area of the arrowtips.

EvilEmpire · January 19, 2009 3:39AM

Believe it or not, you guys WANT me to bid.

And I still would not have won any of them.

Glad you didn't bid.
Had you bid, you may very well WOULD have won.

pmac · January 19, 2009 4:00AM

Not knowing this series at all, could someone enlighten the ignorant? I can see a die from one year, but why did this difference continue throughout all the years listed? Thanks.

19Lyds · January 19, 2009 4:04AM

<< Not knowing this series at all, could someone enlighten the ignorant? I can see a die from one year, but why did this difference continue throughout all the years listed? Thanks. >>

Excellent question which I'm sure has some bearing on the popularity of the coin. Unlike the Type 2 IKE, these do cover multiple years.

I personally do not have an answer so perhaps Herb or RWB can add to this as I'd certainly like to know how it occured with such regularity.

Windycity · January 19, 2009 4:20AM

It appears the mint had a practice of using old "proof" reverse dies for general circulation coins in the Philadelphia mint.

cladking · January 19, 2009 8:00AM

<< Not knowing this series at all, could someone enlighten the ignorant? I can see a die from one year, but why did this difference continue throughout all the years listed? Thanks. >>

It's a tough question and there are likely several answers.

In some cases it's easy to see how they mixed up reverse dies and
simply used the wrong one; The '64 quarters struck with clad reverse
dies for example. In some cases it apperas that they simply neglected
to swap the reverse die at the beginning of the year. Perhaps this
would be caused by the technicians simply getting confused and he
believe he had already changed it. A fresh die would look very much
like a brand new one.

With the proof designs the answer certainly gets trickier. It appears
in some cases that a proof die was inadvertantly processed as a cir-
culation die. And there are instances where it's possible that retired
proof dies were used on regular presses. I don't think this has been
proven but I certainly remember some 1968 quarters with typical ob-
verses and reverses that appeared like a proof.

In some cases it seems they must maintain two different master dies.
It's hard to understand how the "small motto" (type "d") quarters from
'77 to '84 could go through alteration each year but none of them match
the proof strikes.

I suspect Proofartworkoncircs can provide more insight into the '68 to
72 Denver type "b's" than I. It would seem though that some dies must
have been made from proof hubs. I'm sure it gets pretty complicated.

cladking · January 19, 2009 8:01AM

<< I have been a Washington collector for many years and have searched hundreds if not more that a 1000 rolls for high grade coins. During that time, I have pulled all the type 2's aside. This is what I have... dates range from 57-64... no 1956 in the group.

[] >>

Wow! Very impressive.

coinsarefun · January 19, 2009 8:14AM

Is mine a Type B reverse

Should I bother to grade it?

Stefanie

ProofArtworkonCircs · January 19, 2009 8:31AM

<<Is mine a Type B reverse

Should I bother to grade it?>>

Yes, it is a type B and it looks pretty good to me. But I will defer to others for the grade and pricing.

ProofArtworkonCircs · January 19, 2009 9:03AM

<<<< Not knowing this series at all, could someone enlighten the ignorant? I can see a die from one year, but why did this difference continue throughout all the years listed? Thanks. >>

Excellent question which I'm sure has some bearing on the popularity of the coin. Unlike the Type 2 IKE, these do cover multiple years.

I personally do not have an answer so perhaps Herb or RWB can add to this as I'd certainly like to know how it occured with such regularity. >>

I really would like to try to answer this question, but it will take a little time. Certainly the use of the B reverse on proofs from 1937-1972 and on a few business strikes only from 1956-1972 is a fascinating story.

EvilEmpire · January 19, 2009 9:05AM

Steph, yes, type B you got there. With the hits on the eagle's leg (big one on the left leg, some chatter on the right leg) and what appears to be a hit on the right breast, and what appears to be chatter on Washington's neck (and possibly face, not sure if its toning...but here again, tough to grade from a picture), I'd say 63, maybe 64, but again, just by a large picture, they may not look as bad in hand. With 200 graded from MS62-MS66, I believe it to be one of the 'less rare' (don't read that as 'not rare'), but with pops that high, I do think it's one of the more readily available ones out there (assuming those holding multiples would sell dupes). But, any Type B that is MS is worth sending in.

dlmtorts, if you have alot of '62 Type B, if they are MS, why haven't they been sent in for grading?

EvilEmpire · January 19, 2009 9:08AM

Windycity, that IS an impressive amount you have there. Are they high grade circs or real actual MS coins???

dlmtorts · January 19, 2009 9:25AM

dlmtorts, if you have alot of '62 Type B, if they are MS, why haven't they been sent in for grading? TextText

I never thought they were worth the expense of having them graded and attributed. Maybe I am very wrong about that. I certainly hope so.

Windycity · January 19, 2009 9:37AM

All of mine are unc's... most all pulled from original rolls. Grades will vary from MS62-65... maybe one 66 in the group. There are a number of 62's and 64's... I got lucky with a run of 62's from one roll and the 64's come from searching hundreds of rolls. Certain the 1964 rolls were the most available.

bushmaster8 · January 19, 2009 10:08AM

<< I am curious how others view the relative rarity of these coins. I believe the 1956 is the toughest to find. I rate them from toughest to find to easiest to find:

1956 - toughest
1964 - 2nd toughest
1961 - about a tossup for 3rd between these 3.
1960 - "
1963 - "
1962 -
1957 -
1958 - 2nd easiest.
1959 - easiest by far.

I see that some of you believe the 62 is difficult to find. I have more of them than any other date. >>

That looks about right to me.

I picked up a 57 mint set yesterday. I found it interesting that one P quarter was a Ty B, but the other 25c was Ty A. And it is unquestionably an original set, with the toning on both matching perfectly.

So this would indicate they were in production simultaneously, which is really no big surprise, just interesting.

SUMORADA · January 19, 2009 10:09AM

Glad to see these getting some attention, I have been selling these now & then on ebay for a while, I still have maybe 200 altogether, about 10-12 1956, 24-25 1964, 30 or so 63's and so on,
all BU from rolls........looks like these maybe something to have tucked away in 2-5 years.

cladking · January 19, 2009 10:16AM

<< 

I picked up a 57 mint set yesterday. I found it interesting that one P quarter was a Ty B, but the other 25c was Ty A. And it is unquestionably an original set, with the toning on both matching perfectly.

So this would indicate they were in production simultaneously, which is really no big surprise, just interesting. >>

That's interesting for another reason. I've always suspected that the old
mint set coins were struck on regular presses and simply pulled from the
production line. This would seem to help substantiate this.

jmj3esq · January 19, 2009 10:25AM

I have somehow missed the Type B baot and have no idea what it means. Can someone describe what they are and how I can tell by looking at one?

SUMORADA · January 19, 2009 10:34AM

Here is your chance to get a free 1956 Type "b" reverse.....today is my birthday.....this thread by cladking just inspired me to do something nice...just go here....LINK

19Lyds · January 19, 2009 10:47AM

I'm in!

Happy Birthday Eric!

dcarr · January 19, 2009 11:23AM

Numismatic News' monthly "Coin Market" lists the following prices for Type-B quarters in MS-65:

1956: $100
1957: $110
1958: $90
1959: $70
1960: $90
1961: $70
1962: $175
1963: $70
1964: $70

So they think 1962 is the most valuable in MS-60 & up. They list the 1956 higher than the other dates in circ grades VG-AU.

PS:
They also list:

1964-D (Type C): $450

SUMORADA · January 19, 2009 11:54AM

PS:
They also list:

1964-D (Type C): $450

dcarr · January 19, 2009 12:04PM

<< PS:
They also list:

1964-D (Type C): $450

>>

1964-D with 1965 reverse hub.

SUMORADA · January 19, 2009 1:01PM

1964-D with 1965 reverse hub.

Thanks Dan,
I have heard about these, anybody have some pics?

PS: Everytime I see Dan Carr's name I think "What a Hell of a Rec Room he has" "He is the Denver Mint"

ProofArtworkonCircs · January 19, 2009 1:26PM

<<<< Not knowing this series at all, could someone enlighten the ignorant? I can see a die from one year, but why did this difference continue throughout all the years listed? Thanks. >>

Excellent question which I'm sure has some bearing on the popularity of the coin. Unlike the Type 2 IKE, these do cover multiple years.

I personally do not have an answer so perhaps Herb or RWB can add to this as I'd certainly like to know how it occured with such regularity.>>

I think I could write an entire book on this subject. There is enough material. A very brief history will now be given that I think covers the questions asked so far.

In July 1936 a letter from the Director of the Mint was published in the Numismatist explaining why the 1936 proof sets were inferior in appearnce to earlier ones. Part of this was due to the mint policy - "All the present coins are made from sculptured models without retouching with a graver in any way in order to preserve the exact quality and texture of the original sculpter's work. This gives a more or less uneven background with less sharpness in the details...."

In 2008, our own RWB published previously unpublished sections of this letter in Coin World. This attributed this rule to President Theodore Roosevelt. In Roger's Peace Dollar book, he quotes James Fraser, then of the Fine Arts Commision, expressing similiar sentiments about the Peace Dollar. The Mint Director, goes on in his 1936 letter to express reservations about this technique.

The silver type A has a weak reverse. Look at the leaf by A of DOLLAR. This is almost invisible. Now imagine what happens to it when we polish it on a proof die. So the next unexpected step makes sense. In 1937 appeared a radically different proof only quarter reverse. In 1936 the Mint director had reservations and now has apparently taken violent action in spite of the rules. This proof only type B artwork was apparently made from a type A hub by carving the heck out of it to establish a sharp device field boundary. The hub looks like the coin. Imagine taking a silver quarter and carving away at the field with a very sharp knife to improve the appearance. This is just how the new hub was made. It has been said that the barb on the top arrowhead was eliminated. If you use a loupe, you can see it is still there. It is overwhelmed by the new yawning caivity next to it. More on this when you get to 1968, when we find a real example of barb deletion.

Now that we have a proof only hub with special artwork, it was used for all future proof production until 1968, the year of the first clad proofs. Late in 1968, it was used again until 1972. I am amazed that all this never made a biger splash than it did. This Great Mint Revolution of 1937 should make the numismatic history books. 1937-1972 is a span of 36 years. That is the longest lived hub, beating the silver type A of 1932-1966 (dated 1964).

In the meantime type B business strikes first appeared in 1956. I believe that certain proof dies were produced and found wanting. Then before polishing, they were sent to the circulation strike area rather than scrapping them. This continued through 1964. I have previously mention in this thread problems in certain 1956 and 1963 circulation type B's.

Clads started in 1965. There were a series of different business strike hubs there in the early years. Two of these were used for a very few 1968 S proofs. History repeated in that one of these hubs was carved up in a very similiar manner to the 1937 case to make a proof master hub. But this time, they did wipe out the barb on the top arrowhead. Also this time, the master die made from it was also touched up. The result was used for about 75% of the 1968 S production. I have called this one type M. Very little notice has been taken of it, but I think it really deserves some. After 1968, type M was never used for proofs, but appear on a minority of 1969 D, 1970 D and 1970 Philly. It is in the majority of the D quarters in the 1970 mint sets. Why the type M was made and why it was scrapped are mysteries to me.

Late in 1968, the original type B was brought out of retirement. Its master die had the tailfeather centerlines in relief added to it to match the other clads of that era. This was used for nearly 25% of the 1968 S proof production. It was then used for 100% of the 1970 S, 1971 S and 1972 S production. Like 1956-1964, a few type B business strikes are known for 1969, 1970, 1971 and 1972, but this time from the Denver mint. I believe the 1971 D B is a one die phenomen since all have the same die chip and 1972 is also since it is just as scarce.

Thus we have 4 different reverse hubs used for 1968 S quarters. These same 4 hubs were used for 1969 D production. In the meantime 1969 Philly and 1969 S had one only each.

1972 - end of an era for unique proof artwork. Also applies to Ike dollars.

In 1973 - 1974 a new hub was used for all production - proof and business strikes.

Here are a couple of threads with more information and pictures leaning towards clads:

http://forums.collectors.com/messageview.cfm?catid=26&threadid=627990&highlight_key=y&keyword1=1970
Has pictures and descriptions of 4 different 1970 quarter reverses including types B and M.

http://forums.collectors.com/messageview.cfm?catid=26&threadid=659907&highlight_key=y&keyword1=type b
Simple keys to quickly identify the different varieties.

The Franklin half had special proof artwork 1956 -1963 and business strikes from them in the 1958 and 1959 Philly issues.
A 1959 mint set will probably have both a proofartwork Philadelphia quarter and half.

ProofArtworkonCircs · January 19, 2009 1:28PM

<<1964-D with 1965 reverse hub.

Thanks Dan,
I have heard about these, anybody have some pics?>>

There was a very recent thread on these. It does include a link to an excellent picture.

http://forums.collectors.com/messageview.cfm?catid=26&threadid=700195&highlight_key=y

cladking · January 19, 2009 1:59PM

<< 

...Here are a couple of threads with more information and pictures leaning towards clads:

http://forums.collectors.com/messageview.cfm?catid=26&threadid=627990&highlight_key=y&keyword1=1970
Has pictures and descriptions of 4 different 1970 quarter reverses including types B and M.

http://forums.collectors.com/messageview.cfm?catid=26&threadid=659907&highlight_key=y&keyword1=type b
Simple keys to quickly identify the different varieties.

The Franklin half had special proof artwork 1956 -1963 and business strikes from them in the 1958 and 1959 Philly issues.
A 1959 mint set will probably have both a proofartwork Philadelphia quarter and half. >>

four '70 quarters (first link)

identification keys (second link)

cladking · January 19, 2009 2:00PM

<< <<1964-D with 1965 reverse hub.

Thanks Dan,
I have heard about these, anybody have some pics?>>

There was a very recent thread on these. It does include a link to an excellent picture.

http://forums.collectors.com/messageview.cfm?catid=26&threadid=700195&highlight_key=y >>

link

Use this link instead and it will take you straight to the picture.

options26 · January 19, 2009 2:35PM

Hey don't forget to show some love for the type C and D reverses. I remembered this thread from a bit back and it has some great information in it. Type D

greghansen · January 19, 2009 4:33PM

I used to pick these up as I ran into them...which was more often that wanted to at times. I eventually quit...thinking they weren't that rare. May have made a mistake there. I wound up with about a box of certified ones, including three '56's. Guess I may have to get these back out and take a second look at what I've got. Clearly PCGS recognizing and labeling the holders with this type has helped build the market a bit.

Heritage aution of type b quarters.

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