the $25,000 or so VAM cherrypick talk of the town at the FUN show

DennisH · January 11, 2009 3:28AM

It's day # 1 at the show and a longtime VAM collector from California is attending his first FUN show. Within 30 minutes he finds a raw coin on the bourse floor. Trying to remember to breathe, he pays the price marked. After showing it to a few friends he floats on a cloud of euphoria over to PCGS and pays $200 for walkthrough service (more than what the coin cost). Later that day he gets it back:

In case you're wondering, the record high sales price for this VAM is $17,190 for a PCGS AU55 example on eBay in June 2008. Total pop in all PCGS grades is 5. Total mint state pop at PCGS is 2. (The other one is an MS67).

blu62vette · January 11, 2009 3:30AM

What a monster!!

darktone · January 11, 2009 3:36AM

Dennis- are you the long time collector

.

DennisH · January 11, 2009 3:38AM

<< Dennis- are you the long time collector

. >>

Only in my dreams. He's a shy friend who wants to stay anonymous if possible... even though the cat is loooong out of the bag in the VAM community.

coinsarefun · January 11, 2009 3:41AM

I would like to be the first to give a WELL deserved round of

For an astute eye, Congrat's!!!
That is one killer of a coin

Stefanie

Raybob15239 · January 11, 2009 4:00AM

Mark already got his YOU SUCK from the VAM Community. That is a beutiful coin. I wish I had such luck; though I believe I would be forced to sell to pay some bills.

Coxe · January 11, 2009 4:13AM

But it's onlt prooflike on one side. What good is that?

I am amazed that we can still find these rarities at the big shows.

wam98 · January 11, 2009 5:13AM

That's an awesome find. Congrats to the proud owner of his new VAM.

erroid · January 11, 2009 5:47AM

WOW!!!

SUMORADA · January 11, 2009 5:53AM

ya gotta luv it..WOW!

Swampboy · January 11, 2009 5:56AM

Who was the dealer?

Can I tell him?

IGWT · January 11, 2009 5:59AM

God bless the enthusiasm of collectors in the various niches. Really. We'll keep the market going. Congratulations to the collector who found the coin . . . I might not appreciate it, but I can understand the excitement.

coindeuce · January 11, 2009 6:12AM

Although I'm certainly enthused about Mark's find, I think your proclamation of a $25,000 value is grossly optimistic in this market. The specimen that Grant Hobika cherrypicked in 2006 at F.U.N. later graded MS-62 at P.C.G.S. and sold privately for under $10,000. I don't see a one point finer example being valued at almost 3X what the MS-62 brought from one of the VAM communities' most advanced collectors.

DennisH · January 11, 2009 6:15AM

<< Who was the dealer?
Can I tell him?

>>

As far as I know, the buyer of the coin has told absolutely no one... and I hope it stays that way.

blu62vette · January 11, 2009 6:18AM

<< 

<< Who was the dealer?
Can I tell him?

>>

As far as I know, the buyer of the coin has told absolutely no one... and I hope it stays that way. >>

That buyer will never tell.

illini420 · January 11, 2009 6:18AM

<< 

<< Who was the dealer?
Can I tell him?

>>

As far as I know, the buyer of the coin has told absolutely no one... and I hope it stays that way. >>

Hmmm, so posting it on the Internet was probably the right move then...

Maybe that dealer doesn't have a computer...

I have no clue what is so wild about that eye, looks the same as the 1878 8TF Morgans that I have... hmmm... maybe I should look a little closer at them

DennisH · January 11, 2009 6:25AM

<< Although I'm certainly enthused about Mark's find, I think your proclamation of a $25,000 value is grossly optimistic in this market. >>

Dan -- That my guesstimate may be optimistic in today's market is a fair opinion, but I strongly believe that "grossly" can be debated until we are both breathless. My estimate is based upon the fact that the all-time highest known price paid for a VAM 14.11 is the $17,190 for a PCGS AU55 that was sold in June 2008 on eBay. If anything, I think $25,000 may be conservative. Please explain why you think "grossly" is an appropriate reaction to my appraisal, and please tell me what your value estimate is.

WinPitcher · January 11, 2009 6:26AM

Sucks being the guy that sold it.

Steve

HighRelief · January 11, 2009 6:27AM

Amazing find and it was a raw coin just laying out on the bourse. It goes to show you what a sharp eye is able to find.

Looks full PL on the obverse, do you have a reverse picture?

elwood · January 11, 2009 6:28AM

I find it sad that all of you think it's OK to rip-off a dealer in this fashion.

DennisH · January 11, 2009 6:28AM

<< Amazing find and it was a raw coin just laying out on the bourse. It goes to show you what a sharp eye is able to find.

Looks full PL on the obverse, do you have a reverse picture? >>

Sorry, but no. I only shot the obverse. The reverse is a ho-hum satiny finish that is not even close to PL.

Type2 · January 11, 2009 6:29AM

Yes, One more for the cherry picker that a boy keep us proud, Just guess of the ones you dont her of.

DennisH · January 11, 2009 6:29AM

<< I find it sad that all of you think it's OK to rip-off a dealer in this fashion. >>

Please explain how this is so. The dealer priced the coin at what he wanted and the buyer paid full price.

COINB0Y · January 11, 2009 6:31AM

My God!

Perhaps the Dealer needs a Bail-out from Treasury?

MidLifeCrisis · January 11, 2009 6:31AM

<< God bless the enthusiasm of collectors in the various niches. Really. We'll keep the market going. Congratulations to the collector who found the coin . . . I might not understand it, but I can understand the excitement. >>

JrGMan2004 · January 11, 2009 6:32AM

<< 

<< I find it sad that all of you think it's OK to rip-off a dealer in this fashion. >>

Please explain how this is so. The dealer priced the coin at what he wanted and the buyer paid full price. >>

I think he refers to the fact that if a dealer (even unknowingly) buys something for common that is a rare marriage or whatever, he gets ripped... but if a collector cherrypicks from a dealer, he is lauded and held up on a pedestal...

COINB0Y · January 11, 2009 6:33AM

Of course, it never happens the other way around, right?

I am stunned at the sense of rightousness for the 'poor' Dealer?

blu62vette · January 11, 2009 6:33AM

<< I find it sad that all of you think it's OK to rip-off a dealer in this fashion. >>

If the dealer took the time to learn the VAM's he had, there would not be this issue. Since he must not care about VAM's or want to take the time to learn it is the dealers loss. How was the dealer ripped off?

coindeuce · January 11, 2009 6:36AM

<< 

<< Although I'm certainly enthused about Mark's find, I think your proclamation of a $25,000 value is grossly optimistic in this market. >>

Dan -- That my guesstimate may be optimistic in today's market is a fair opinion, but I strongly believe that "grossly" can be debated until we are both breathless. My estimate is based upon the fact that the all-time highest known price paid for a VAM 14.11 is the $17,190 for a PCGS AU55 that was sold in June 2008 on eBay. If anything, I think $25,000 may be conservative. Please explain why you think "grossly" is an appropriate reaction to my appraisal, and please tell me what your value estimate is. >>

I firmly believe that the PR for the PCGS AU-55 is what I would refer to as an aberration from the norm. IMHO, that coin was contested by two Registry competitors that just couldn't find the patience to wait for another better example to be offered. That coin is what I call a "happy" coin. Obviously the competitors for the AU-55 were either unaware of or chose to ignore the $8K-$9K price for the PCGS-62 that Grant sold. Totally irrational behavior as far as I'm concerned. Or bottomless pockets. You decide for yourself.

elwood · January 11, 2009 6:36AM

Exactly!!!

Thank you, JrGMan

However, I probably should have added a

JrGMan2004 · January 11, 2009 6:37AM

<< 

<< I find it sad that all of you think it's OK to rip-off a dealer in this fashion. >>

If the dealer took the time to learn the VAM's he had, there would not be this issue. Since he must not care about VAM's or want to take the time to learn it is the dealers loss. How was the dealer ripped off? >>

Please read my reply to it... I believe you will have your answer.

WinPitcher · January 11, 2009 6:39AM

I don't think the buyer ripped the dealer off, collecting Vams is a specialty.

The dealer is the professional, he better know what he has. Maybe he did and did not care.

With that said, it still sucks being the seller of this coin.

Steve

DennisH · January 11, 2009 6:54AM

<< Totally irrational behavior as far as I'm concerned. Or bottomless pockets. You decide for yourself. >>

Dan: I long ago gave up trying to make sense of how others spend their money; I have enough trouble making sense of how I spend mine. But I do know that there are countless people who have far more zeros in their checking account than I do. And I also know that the buyer of this latest 14.11 at the FUN show turned down an on-the-spot offer of $10,000 for the coin while it was still raw.

coindeuce · January 11, 2009 7:09AM

<< What are the diagnostics of a "wild eye"? >>

Folllow the links provided at vamworld.com to the listing for VAM 14.11

Type2 · January 11, 2009 7:14AM

<< 

<< 

<< I find it sad that all of you think it's OK to rip-off a dealer in this fashion. >>

If the dealer took the time to learn the VAM's he had, there would not be this issue. Since he must not care about VAM's or want to take the time to learn it is the dealers loss. How was the dealer ripped off? >>

Please read my reply to it... I believe you will have your answer. >>

Ok, It's not ok to rip off a dealer but do you have to do his work for him. If I see a Vam over date DDO/DDR or so on do I have to tell him, Does he tell me all abought his coins, Like this is how much I payed, It may have ben clened, diped in a house fire, No this is what he says to me is this the coin you want to see this is how much it is YES, No. Now that make us cherry pickers bad, We payed the price he ask and we do the deal. Now we can get it graded or toss it if we like but we payed for it so he did not get riped. Thats the way it is. Like roll searching do I need to call the B-M's and tell them what I find or is that ripping them off if I dont. It go's back to work if they opened ea. Roll they would have found what I did. but that is just me.

Kdog08 · January 11, 2009 7:32AM

A good example of how Vam Variety collecting is still such a small niche. I guess maybe because there are so many Morgan and Peace Dollars around, most collectors don't want to go through the "trouble" of trying to find them! I found a rare (not worth 25K mind you, but worth a heck of a lot more than the $125.00 I paid for it) Vam last year at a small show.

bidask · January 11, 2009 7:38AM

Can someone please explain to me what so different about Ms. Liberty's eye that makes this coin so valuable?

blu62vette · January 11, 2009 7:42AM

The eye is part of it, the doubling is also a big part of it. Just a very rare coin.

From Vamworld.....

Obverse I1 11 – Eyelid doubled as short, thick and blunt spike just below eyelid plus a long thin spike angled downward in front of lower part of eye. E and P of E PLURIBUS doubled in clockwise direction. Raised metal in first 8 in date. Ear over polished. Strong doubling along top edges of many obverse stars.
Reverse A1C - Letters in UNITED doubled strongly on top and bottom. STATES OF AMERICA letters doubled at bottom. ONE DOLLAR letters doubled at top. Left wreath strongly doubled. Three small feathers added on eagle's right and two on eagle's left side between leg and bottom of wing.

The VAM-14.11 is an ultra rarity with perhaps a dozen known

The VAM-14.11 is defined by two "spikes" in front of the eye. The first is upward short and square-ended. The second is longer downward and sharply pointed. The letters in 'E PLURIBU' are all doubled, showing small notches on the left serifs.

bidask · January 11, 2009 7:47AM

I think I may send in every Morgan dollar I own for variety attribution.

BAJJERFAN · January 11, 2009 7:52AM

So if approx 100,000 coins were struck from a set of dies, then where are the other 99,995 or so?

mach19 · January 11, 2009 7:57AM

<< I find it sad that all of you think it's OK to rip-off a dealer in this fashion. >>

Cherry picking is part of the big picture, if you sell a coin for what you feel it is worth without doing your homework.... enough said.

Type2 · January 11, 2009 7:59AM

<< I think I may send in every Morgan dollar I own for variety attribution. >>

This is what you need to look for.

coindeuce · January 11, 2009 8:16AM

<< So if approx 100,000 coins were struck from a set of dies, then where are the other 99,995 or so? >>

There may be as many as 100,00 examples of the 1878 8TF Reverse that were struck using the A-1-c reverse die, however the number of coins with A-1-c reverse that are paired with the I-1-11 obverse are thus far known to be fewer than a dozen. This number corresponds to R-7 on the Sheldon Scale for Rarity. VAMs 14.12 and 14.17 are also produced from a pairing of the A-1-c reverse with yet two other distinctly different obverse dies, and are so rare as to likely be regarded as R-8 for a long time to come.

seateddime · January 11, 2009 8:19AM

wow!

coinkat · January 11, 2009 8:40AM

I have found VAMs at various times during my numismatic career... Do I feel some sense to educate a dealer on these coins? No because they seem to have some silly excuse as to why they can not be bothered with VAMs. I believe that a dealer can spend the time that VAM collectors do to educate themselves. Some do so and others do not... What about the person that sold the coin to the dealer that sold it to the guy that bought it? Where does all of the self righteousness end in this hobby?

Do the work. Understand what you are doing and do not feel sorry for dealers who make themselves out to be the self proclaimed experts. Dealers have their own business plans and some just do not care about varieties... and if they don't care about varieties, then they have made that decision knowing what is at stake.

For the dealers here... either get educated or don't whine. End of discussion.

keez · January 11, 2009 12:19PM

This is a great thread. It stirs up my curiosity about a VAM I found in 2005 or 2006 that has is an 1878-S VAM 1D reverse (as identified by a board member here) and a polished nostril on the obverse that fits 1878 philly obverse VAM 132 description. Also has a broken star on the 4th star on the right.

This thing drives me crazy still, LOL. Who would I send this to be examined and attributed. I had a post in Feb 2006 about the obverse, and while the reverse was identified, the obverse was not.

Wolf359 · January 11, 2009 12:27PM

<< I find it sad that all of you think it's OK to rip-off a dealer in this fashion. >>

Oh come on, rip-off my ass. We all cherrypick, whether it's rare die varieties, or AU marked as XF. Sheesh!

sinin1 · January 11, 2009 12:36PM

the dealer already plugged in their margin when they set the price

very nice score for the collector

stuff like that makes Scott Travers books that tells people any ole smuck can walk in of the street
and make 20-50,000 at a good show just buy buying undervalued coins and selling them for their worth

Wolf359 · January 11, 2009 12:36PM

<< So if approx 100,000 coins were struck from a set of dies, then where are the other 99,995 or so? >>

The radial die crack shown on several specimens ended the die life very quickly. It was a serious flaw on the first 8TF high relief design; but these coins are ultra-rare and one day will be worth 6 figures I say.

messydesk · January 11, 2009 12:39PM

Having seen the coin in the flip when raw, the dealer from whom it was cherrypicked clearly bought it from another dealer. Would anyone here be condemning the dealer that was cherrypicked had he known to price the coin at what it was worth, since in doing so he would have cherrypicked another dealer, paying wholesale in the process?

GoldenEyeNumismatics · January 11, 2009 12:42PM

<< 

<< I find it sad that all of you think it's OK to rip-off a dealer in this fashion. >>

If the dealer took the time to learn the VAM's he had, there would not be this issue. Since he must not care about VAM's or want to take the time to learn it is the dealers loss. How was the dealer ripped off? >>

Flip the question.

Is the old lady who walks into a coin shop and asks for $500 for her husband's proof Morgan Dollar collection being ripped off? It's her fault she didn't have the knowledge to price them properly.

the $25,000 or so VAM cherrypick talk of the town at the FUN show

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