The great thought, the great concern, the great anxiety of men is to restrict, as much as possible, the limits of their own responsibility. ~Giosué Borsi
I am not in favor of the 'nanny state' or of the 'nanny grading service'. PCGS is offering a service. The service is not deceptive. The possiblity that some may attempt to use the service and market coins in an arguably deceptive way is not the fault of the service provider. People who like the argument that PCGS is 'enabling' fraud by holdering genuine coins without further descriptions of their problem are the same types of people who like the argument that gun manufacturer's are responsible for crimes commited by people who use their product dangerously. I'm not in that group. I agree with those who have articulated it a different way; suggesting that each of us in choosing how to spend our money, need to take a little personal responsibility for our decisions and not expect the government or private industry to hold our hand throughout the process. As the comedian Ron White likes to say...."You can't fix stupid!".
I'll just post my thoughts I posted in a similar thread. I am unpleasantly suprised by the number of people who 'genuinely' feel that PCGS bears some responsiblity for deceptive marketing of their genuine slabs. Wow!
It will be only a matter of ,when,ebay requires a disclosure,in the title and/or description,of the grading opinion of problem . The ones that lists any grading numbers, are a listing violation. IMO, Listing should be removed,seller warned, and buyers red flag these sellers. I try to put everything of note, in the description...warts and all...and it does lower the price but so far have a "5" star in this area. I expect other sellers, that I buy from,to do same,or I move along
At least he did type "This is just graded as genuine by PCGS no grade was assigned" further down in his listing. But does eBay allow you to put "MS-62" in your title (as he did here) when it's not graded as such on the slab?
He's in violation of ebay rules by putting "MS-62" in the title.It's water under the bridge however.
Amazing.... 37 bids on this obviously impaired coin (based on the pics).I'm with the don't try to save people from themselves crowd notwithstanding the seller getting away with breaking one or more of ebay's rules.
“I have all the money I want, and there is a better use I can make of my time. We work to become, not to acquire.” — Elbert Hubbard
<< Why they can't indicate the grade and problem on the genuine slab, so that it is easily understood, is beyond me. >>
<<Because many collectors who buy coins do not want to see "SCRATCHED" or some other awful word in giant capital letters on their slab. I know I wouldn't. >>
<<Why does it need to be "in giant capitol letters"? Listing a problem on the label would certainly make it more difficult for a dealer to sell a problem coin to a new collector. >>
<<This whole thought process is bizarre to me.>>
>>It's like saying that Toyota should paint all their cars day-glow orange so that it would be more difficult for bank robbers to use them as get-away cars.>>
If I were to find a particularly valuable coin (like '14 D cent,for example) while metal detecting, I wouldn't hesitate to have it slabbed by PCGS as genuine. If selling such a piece on an online auction venue (ebay, for exmple) i would tell it like it is about how I see the condition of the coin. Do this,set a minimum price and let the market take care of itself.
Toyota painting all their cars day-glow orange? That's a good one. I'll be laughing about this one all day long.
“I have all the money I want, and there is a better use I can make of my time. We work to become, not to acquire.” — Elbert Hubbard
<< <i>Why they can't indicate the grade and problem on the genuine slab, so that it is easily understood, is beyond me. >>
Probably because it would look too much like ANACS and NCS. Differentiation, or at least perceived differences are the cornerstone of marketing.
Anyone who is "fooled" by these genuine slabs, is going to be fooled by any number of other disreputable practices. I can see why folks didn't want PCGS to holder the problem coins. I don't understand the big upset. Numismatics has always been a tank full of sharks willing to prey on the underinformed or misinformed. Probably always will be.
It would seem to me that "market acceptable" coins in no-problem holders will fool many more folks and separate them from their money, than problem coins in genuine holders without the problem spelled out, but that's just me. A fool is going to lose money. Period.
In any case, nothing I say or do, is likely to change PCGS policy. When PCGS first stated they would holder problem coins instead of bagging them, the response ran about 80% positive. I can see some of that 20% opposed has gathered in this thread. I doubt that all the hand wringing will move the company one inch on its new and popular policies.
I don't think the problem is PCGS. Anyone buying PCGS genuine coins had better be educated as to what they are buying or suffer the consequences. However, ebay should require the problem # to be readable in the sellers pic.
My only issue with the auction is that the images are so bad for a 'dutch' auction. Are all the coins alike; meaning if they were to grade, woulld all grade the same? How do I know what I'm getting?
I 'd agree that (obviously) a lot more 'Genuine' holders, which may be good for some who don't mind coins with minor problems, that can be picked up for less than no-problem coins & can be entered in the registry. Think 'KEYS'.
If this was around 5 years ago I would have sent in the 1893-S & 1894 Morgans I owned and still have them today. Luckily, I still have other problem keys that I will sending in for (in honor of GWB) 'Genuifacation'.
I don't have a problem with the PCGS Genuine holders per se, I do have a problem with people who insert their own numeric grade in the title, because they know they can get away with it. I urge everyone who sees that happening on eBay to report those listings.
I would also like to see a brief description of the problem on the label, so the potential buyer doesn't have to sit there with a PCGS decoder ring to figure it out. Is that too much to ask?
Definitely agree with that one. Too bad someone didn't report it for deceptive title (PCGS MS 62?!) How about no?
And whatever happened to showing the entire slab. Isn't that an eBay "law"? Now this one IS deceptive.
While I agree that the reason should be printed on the label a la ANACS, the first seller that the OP is referring to isn't doing anything wrong. However, if I was selling a Genuine coin, I would certainly disclose the reason code PCGS assigned.
There could be big time rim damage on a coin that is tough to see in those pics, whereas a genuine piece with a questionable color could still be more desirable to some.
Bottom line is if I didn't know what was wrong with it, I wouldn't bid on it! I know less informed buyers are going to get screwed though, and that doesn't sit right with me.
I hear you. And after I got finished reading this whole thread I've had a change of heart. I was caught in a compassionate moment for idiocy.
Personally, I DO think that if you are going to be buying PCGS slabbed coins, you had better know what you're buying, Genuine or not! You can't blame the label if you don't know what you bought!
<< <i>Numismatics has always been a tank full of sharks willing to prey on the underinformed or misinformed. Probably always will be. >>
That pretty much sums it up.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
OK, after much thought on this subject over the last 12 hrs I have come up with the ONLY solution to this and ALL other Numismatic related problems.
Since there are many out there who think that we must protect people from themselves I suggest that we appoint a World Wide Coin Czar. We must make it World Wide as we not only need to protect US Coin Collectors from themselves but we must also protect all the Coin Collectors of the world.
Not only must we protect the uninformed buyer but we must also protect the uninformed seller. This would include the 18 yr old who inherits Grandpa's coin collection. We CAN'T let this poor uninformed soul to take Grandpa's coin collection to the local shark coin dealer and sell it for 10 cents on the dollar!
The World Wide Coin Czar would be appointed to the highest Numismatic office in the land. This person would be the ONLY person in the world who would be allowed to approve or deny any Nuismatic related sale or purchase. This would include all world wide sales or purchases be it on eBay, auction sites or in store sales or purchases.
When someone wants to buy or sell you would have to fill out "The World Wide Numismatic Buy or Sale Form" You would then have to subit all items to The World Wide Coin Czar who would either approve or deny the sale or purchase making sure both buyer and seller are "Protected from themselves" by making a "BAD DEAL".
Of course this might cause a slight delay in the process seeing how The World Wide Coin Czar is the only person qualified to approve any such transactions but hey,,,, that is the price we must all pay to protect people from themselves.
<< <i>Why they can't indicate the grade and problem on the genuine slab, so that it is easily understood, is beyond me. >>
There's only a few numbers to learn so I'm thinking in about a month or so folks who really care will figure them out.
90 Not Genuine 91 Questionable Toning 92 Cleaning 93 Planchet Flaw 94 Altered Surfaces 95 Scratch / Rim Dent 96 Refund - No Service 97 Environmental Damage 98 Damage 99 PVC
Then, the inevitable questions and comments will rise such as:
"Doesn't look cleaned to me". "Looks NT to me"
Followed by:
"That coin was in a Genuine Questionable Toning slab last month and now its in a MS62 slab!"
And so it goes............
BTW, 91 is "Questionable Toning" and not "Artificial Toning" which is a rendered opinion so my guess is that, if some good deals come along, expect some of those 91's to appear in either new PCGS MS slabs or someone elses MS slabs.
The bottom line is that regardless of what could or should have been done, coin collecting and grading is always going to be a controversial subject which was the purpose behind the TPG's in the first place.
I decided to change calling the bathroom the John and renamed it the Jim. I feel so much better saying I went to the Jim this morning.
Comments
I'll just post my thoughts I posted in a similar thread. I am unpleasantly suprised by the number of people who 'genuinely' feel that PCGS bears some responsiblity for deceptive marketing of their genuine slabs. Wow!
Greg Hansen, Melbourne, FL Click here for any current EBAY auctions Multiple "Circle of Trust" transactions over 14 years on forum
He's in violation of ebay rules by putting "MS-62" in the title.It's water under the bridge however.
Amazing.... 37 bids on this obviously impaired coin (based on the pics).I'm with the don't try to save people from themselves crowd notwithstanding the seller getting away with breaking one or more of ebay's rules.
“I have all the money I want, and there is a better use I can make of my time. We work to become, not to acquire.” — Elbert Hubbard
<<Because many collectors who buy coins do not want to see "SCRATCHED" or some other awful word in giant capital letters on their slab. I know I wouldn't. >>
<<Why does it need to be "in giant capitol letters"? Listing a problem on the label would certainly make it more difficult for a dealer to sell a problem coin to a new collector. >>
<<This whole thought process is bizarre to me.>>
>>It's like saying that Toyota should paint all their cars day-glow orange so that it would be more difficult for bank robbers to use them as get-away cars.>>
If I were to find a particularly valuable coin (like '14 D cent,for example) while metal detecting, I wouldn't hesitate to have it slabbed by PCGS as genuine. If selling such a piece on an online auction venue (ebay, for exmple) i would tell it like it is about how I see the condition of the coin. Do this,set a minimum price and let the market take care of itself.
Toyota painting all their cars day-glow orange? That's a good one. I'll be laughing about this one all day long.
“I have all the money I want, and there is a better use I can make of my time. We work to become, not to acquire.” — Elbert Hubbard
Good Golly Miss Molly, ANACS is OK if ya want to wait TWO MONTHS
to get your coins back.
<< <i>Why they can't indicate the grade and problem on the genuine slab, so that it is easily understood, is beyond me. >>
Probably because it would look too much like ANACS and NCS. Differentiation, or at least perceived differences are the cornerstone of marketing.
Anyone who is "fooled" by these genuine slabs, is going to be fooled by any number of other disreputable practices. I can see why folks didn't want PCGS to holder the problem coins. I don't understand the big upset. Numismatics has always been a tank full of sharks willing to prey on the underinformed or misinformed. Probably always will be.
It would seem to me that "market acceptable" coins in no-problem holders will fool many more folks and separate them from their money, than problem coins in genuine holders without the problem spelled out, but that's just me. A fool is going to lose money. Period.
In any case, nothing I say or do, is likely to change PCGS policy. When PCGS first stated they would holder problem coins instead of bagging them, the response ran about 80% positive. I can see some of that 20% opposed has gathered in this thread. I doubt that all the hand wringing will move the company one inch on its new and popular policies.
https://acoinshop.com/ —-> https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
<< <i>I guess a buyer could always "Ask the seller a question" if he wanted more information?
Seller has 19,986 feedbacks,,,,99.9 % positive rating,,,, lists a 1-800 telephone number you can call to ask questions and offers a 7 day return.
Don't see how you can ask for much more?
GrandAm
Why doesn't the seller state the coin's problem up-front? That isn't much to ask.
<< <i>
<< <i>I guess a buyer could always "Ask the seller a question" if he wanted more information?
Seller has 19,986 feedbacks,,,,99.9 % positive rating,,,, lists a 1-800 telephone number you can call to ask questions and offers a 7 day return.
Don't see how you can ask for much more?
GrandAm
Why doesn't the seller state the coin's problem up-front? That isn't much to ask. >>
Most of us can read the writing on the wall; we just assume it's addressed to someone else. ~Ivern Ball
Buying top quality Seated Dimes in Gem BU and Proof.
Buying great coins - monster eye appeal only.
Successful BST transactions with WTCG, NH48400, evil empire,
meltdown, timrutnat, bumanchu, 2ndCharter, rpw, AgBlox, indiananationals, yellowkid, RGJohn, fishteeth, rkfish, Ponyexpress8, kalshacon, Tdec1000, Coinlieutenant, SamByrd, Coppercolor
<< <i>
<< <i>I guess a buyer could always "Ask the seller a question" if he wanted more information?
Seller has 19,986 feedbacks,,,,99.9 % positive rating,,,, lists a 1-800 telephone number you can call to ask questions and offers a 7 day return.
Don't see how you can ask for much more?
GrandAm
Why doesn't the seller state the coin's problem up-front? That isn't much to ask. >>
Why doesn't the seller offer toilet paper too, in case the buyer needs a wipe?
Paranoia Strikes ™
Dregs in Drag™
Any more ?
https://acoinshop.com/ —-> https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
Are all the coins alike; meaning if they were to grade, woulld all grade the same?
How do I know what I'm getting?
I 'd agree that (obviously) a lot more 'Genuine' holders, which may be good for some who don't mind coins with minor problems, that can be picked up for less than no-problem coins & can be entered in the registry. Think 'KEYS'.
If this was around 5 years ago I would have sent in the 1893-S & 1894 Morgans I owned and still have them today.
Luckily, I still have other problem keys that I will sending in for (in honor of GWB) 'Genuifacation'.
I would also like to see a brief description of the problem on the label, so the potential buyer doesn't have to sit there with a PCGS decoder ring to figure it out. Is that too much to ask?
<< <i>Not nearly as much of an abuse of the "genuine" slab as
this auction >>
Definitely agree with that one. Too bad someone didn't report it for deceptive title (PCGS MS 62?!) How about no?
And whatever happened to showing the entire slab. Isn't that an eBay "law"? Now this one IS deceptive.
While I agree that the reason should be printed on the label a la ANACS, the first seller that the OP is referring to isn't
doing anything wrong. However, if I was selling a Genuine coin, I would certainly disclose the reason code PCGS assigned.
There could be big time rim damage on a coin that is tough to see in those pics, whereas a genuine piece with a questionable color
could still be more desirable to some.
Bottom line is if I didn't know what was wrong with it, I wouldn't bid on it! I know less informed buyers are going to get screwed though,
and that doesn't sit right with me.
commoncents123, JrGMan2004, Coll3ctor (2), Dabigkahuna, BAJJERFAN, Boom, GRANDAM, newsman, cohodk, kklambo, seateddime, ajia, mirabela, Weather11am, keepdachange, gsa1fan, cone10
-------------------------
A buyer is not getting screwed ...
a student at Harvard pays more tuition than a student at a community college.
https://acoinshop.com/ —-> https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
I hear you. And after I got finished reading this whole thread I've had a change of heart.
I was caught in a compassionate moment for idiocy.
Personally, I DO think that if you are going to be buying PCGS slabbed coins, you had better
know what you're buying, Genuine or not! You can't blame the label if you don't know what
you bought!
commoncents123, JrGMan2004, Coll3ctor (2), Dabigkahuna, BAJJERFAN, Boom, GRANDAM, newsman, cohodk, kklambo, seateddime, ajia, mirabela, Weather11am, keepdachange, gsa1fan, cone10
-------------------------
<< <i>Numismatics has always been a tank full of sharks willing to prey on the underinformed or misinformed. Probably always will be. >>
That pretty much sums it up.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
1. ask questions
2. refrain from bidding and move on.
"Bongo hurtles along the rain soaked highway of life on underinflated bald retread tires."
~Wayne
Since there are many out there who think that we must protect people from themselves I suggest that we appoint a World Wide Coin Czar. We must make it World Wide as we not only need to protect US Coin Collectors from themselves but we must also protect all the Coin Collectors of the world.
Not only must we protect the uninformed buyer but we must also protect the uninformed seller. This would include the 18 yr old who inherits Grandpa's coin collection. We CAN'T let this poor uninformed soul to take Grandpa's coin collection to the local shark coin dealer and sell it for 10 cents on the dollar!
The World Wide Coin Czar would be appointed to the highest Numismatic office in the land. This person would be the ONLY person in the world who would be allowed to approve or deny any Nuismatic related sale or purchase. This would include all world wide sales or purchases be it on eBay, auction sites or in store sales or purchases.
When someone wants to buy or sell you would have to fill out "The World Wide Numismatic Buy or Sale Form" You would then have to subit all items to The World Wide Coin Czar who would either approve or deny the sale or purchase making sure both buyer and seller are "Protected from themselves" by making a "BAD DEAL".
Of course this might cause a slight delay in the process seeing how The World Wide Coin Czar is the only person qualified to approve any such transactions but hey,,,, that is the price we must all pay to protect people from themselves.
JMHO, GrandAm
<< <i>Why they can't indicate the grade and problem on the genuine slab, so that it is easily understood, is beyond me. >>
There's only a few numbers to learn so I'm thinking in about a month or so folks who really care will figure them out.
90 Not Genuine
91 Questionable Toning
92 Cleaning
93 Planchet Flaw
94 Altered Surfaces
95 Scratch / Rim Dent
96 Refund - No Service
97 Environmental Damage
98 Damage
99 PVC
Then, the inevitable questions and comments will rise such as:
"Doesn't look cleaned to me".
"Looks NT to me"
Followed by:
"That coin was in a Genuine Questionable Toning slab last month and now its in a MS62 slab!"
And so it goes............
BTW, 91 is "Questionable Toning" and not "Artificial Toning" which is a rendered opinion so my guess is that, if some good deals come along, expect some of those 91's to appear in either new PCGS MS slabs or someone elses MS slabs.
The bottom line is that regardless of what could or should have been done, coin collecting and grading is always going to be a controversial subject which was the purpose behind the TPG's in the first place.
The name is LEE!