How many new collectors will see a coin in a PCGS "GENUINE" slab and assume it's a wholeso

PerryHall · January 10, 2009 8:34PM

More than a few I would imagine. Why is it a problem for PCGS to spell out the problem on the label rather than hide the problem as some code number within the serial number?

lordmarcovan · January 10, 2009 8:46PM

<< How many new collectors will see a coin in a PCGS slab and assume it's a wholesome coin?
>>

You mean in a PCGS "Genuine" labeled slab. For a moment there I didn't know what you were talkin' about.

It's a good question. I suppose they had their reasons, but I would like to hear them.

drwstr123 · January 10, 2009 8:51PM

If you know the difference, then that's what's important. I don't much feel like picking up the slack for the rest of the masses.

lordmarcovan · January 10, 2009 8:54PM

I am beginning to think it is a VERY good question.

PerryHall · January 10, 2009 9:09PM

<< 

<< How many new collectors will see a coin in a PCGS slab and assume it's a wholesome coin?
>>

You mean in a PCGS "Genuine" labeled slab. For a moment there I didn't know what you were talkin' about.

It's a good question. I suppose they had their reasons, but I would like to hear them. >>

That's what I meant. I corrected the thread title. Thanks. The folks here are relatively knowlegable concerning coins but I'm concerned with the newbie who is just getting involved with coins.

Oilpatch · January 10, 2009 9:18PM

I am not sure if it helps but if you do a cert search it will tell you why they bagged the coin.

for instance here cert number 13270912 a Van Buren I submitted and got bagged...

Oh truly do hope by posting this information some Chinese knock off artist doesnt take this info and crank out a few million copies of it!

COIN INFORMATION
Cert Verification #: 13270912
PCGS Coin #: 394875
Date, mintmark: 2008-P
Denomination: $1
Variety: M. Van Buren - Pos A Satin Finish
Minor Variety:
Mint Error:
Pedigree:
Country: The United States of America
Grade: Genuine (95 - Scratch or Rim Nick)

BTW personally I dont think that was a scratch I still think it was punch through... but hey ya cant win them all.

keets · January 10, 2009 10:12PM

the ranting has begun!!!

in this day and age, if someone dives into the hobby and gets burned it's really their own fault and they need to take responsibility. this isn't the 90's anymore where everything that happens is always someone elses fault. get real, grow up, act like an adult and everything will be OK!!!! education is the key and those who choose not to PAY for the education will be CHOOSING to pay somewhere else.

remember, there are really no free lunches in the world, unless of course, we count that silly afternoon on the Mount with all those fishes and loaves.

PerryHall · January 10, 2009 10:16PM

<< I am not sure if it helps but if you do a cert search it will tell you why they bagged the coin. >>

My concern is with new collectors. Would you expect a new collector at his first coin show to know this is an option? He wouldn't even know a coin in a "GENUINE" holder is a "bagged coin". It only takes a few expensive mistakes before a new collector is lost to the hobby forever.

drwstr123 · January 10, 2009 10:20PM

<< 

<< I am not sure if it helps but if you do a cert search it will tell you why they bagged the coin. >>

My concern is with new collectors. Would you expect a new collector at his first coin show to know this is an option? He wouldn't even know a coin in a "GENUINE" holder is a "bagged coin". It only takes a few expensive mistakes before a new collector is lost to the hobby forever.

>>

Oh, buy the friggin' book already. Worry about yourself first. When you attain perfection then divide yourself among others.

ksteelheader · January 10, 2009 10:32PM

The willingness to accept responsibility for one's own life is the source from which self-respect springs. ~Joan Didion

ccmorgan · January 10, 2009 10:45PM

Especially if the "newbie" gets ripped off on his first few purchases. He will think coin collectors/numismatists are nothing but crooks.

ksteelheader · January 10, 2009 10:47PM

<< Especially if the "newbie" gets ripped off on his first few purchases. He will think coin collectors/numismatists are nothing but crooks. >>

Why do children want to grow up? Because they experience their lives as constrained by immaturity and perceive adulthood as a condition of greater freedom and opportunity. But what is there today, in America, that very poor and very rich adolescents want to do but cannot do? Not much: they can "do" drugs, "have" sex, "make" babies, and "get" money (from their parents, crime, or the State). For such adolescents, adulthood becomes synonymous with responsibility rather than liberty. Is it any surprise that they remain adolescents? ~Thomas Szasz

TwoSides2aCoin · January 10, 2009 10:53PM

Hopefully people will get a larger vocabulary even if they don't get a larger brain to process facts.
Genuine things are not always problem free but at least they're not "counterfeit". This is still a hobby and CAVEAT EMPTOR is still Greek to a lot of people.

FilthyBroke · January 10, 2009 10:55PM

The slab does actually have "Not Gradable" stamped clearly on the reverse label. That should tell you something.

I for one cannot save people from themselves. As in any situation, they should do at least a little research before buying. I don't condone deception in any way, but the buyer does hold some responsibility to inform himself.

08HALA20 · January 10, 2009 10:56PM

Some of these auction examples are unnerving to me. (a rookie)

Does the "Genuine" label list all the issues with the coin.

Rim dent, lightly cleaned, tooled etc. or does it just list one.

Oviously a lightly cleaned coin a long time ago with natural toning over it may be a nice coin.
But if it also has a scratch or rim ding or altered it would be deceiving to just list it as lightly cleaned.

How much info is on the label?

I think the "genuine" label is a good idea but may just be the first step.

Rookie Joe

greghansen · January 10, 2009 11:04PM

How many new collectors will see a coin in a PCGS "GENUINE" slab and assume it's a wholesome coin?

Probably the same number who will watch a TV pitch for Obama dollars and assume they will be a good investment.

Maybe about the same number who will buy a new or used car and sincerely believe they really 'stuck it to the dealer on that one'.

I am not in favor of the 'nanny state' or of the 'nanny grading service'. PCGS is offering a service. The service is not deceptive. The possiblity that some may attempt to use the service and market coins in an arguably deceptive way is not the fault of the service provider. People who like the argument that PCGS is 'enabling' fraud by holdering genuine coins without further descriptions of their problem are the same types of people who like the argument that gun manufacturer's are responsible for crimes commited by people who use their product dangerously. I'm not in that group. I agree with those who have articulated it a different way; suggesting that each of us in choosing how to spend our money, need to take a little personal responsibility for our decisions and not expect the government or private industry to hold our hand throughout the process. As the comedian Ron White likes to say...."You can't fix stupid!".

ksteelheader · January 10, 2009 11:11PM

The great thought, the great concern, the great anxiety of men is to restrict, as much as possible, the limits of their own responsibility. ~Giosué Borsi

itsnotjustme · January 10, 2009 11:56PM

This image is from a current auction of fairtraderz. They have a clear image showing the reverse, which states GENUINE NOT GRADABLE.

While I hate to see people scammed, I also put personal responsibility on people to be educated about what they are doing.

TavernTreasures · January 11, 2009 3:18AM

In 1883 the US made nickels that only had a "V" on the reverse and did not indicate the word "Cents".
Some dishonest folks used these nickels for scamming.
Did the US government keep this bad design which lacked important info?
Did they say that anyone who accepts these nickels as $5 gold pieces should have informed themselves and accept the responsibility for their lack of knowledge of coin designs?

Why make slabs that give an opportunities to scammers?

CoinJunkie · January 11, 2009 3:37AM

Who knows? As in all endeavors, those who seek to educate themselves before plunging in
will tend to have more satisfactory results.

Swampboy · January 11, 2009 3:53AM

<< in this day and age, if someone dives into the hobby and gets burned it's really their own fault and they need to take responsibility. >>

What keets said 100%.

Also, this is a new service so I guess this product has to be hashed out, dissected and discussed so everyone has fix on what this means to the hobby.
My suggestion is we focus on the hobby and ease up with our concerns about new collectors, dare I say investors.

Any legitimate product has the potential for being marketed unethically ala the generic coin T.V. shows, unscrupulous dealers , counterfeiters et al.

mozeppa · January 11, 2009 3:58AM

I have no problem...because I can read in english.

PerryHall · January 11, 2009 3:59AM

<< ........ and ease up with our concerns about new collectors, dare I say investors. >>

I would imagine that there are a lot of serious collectors that started off as coin investors.

drwstr123 · January 11, 2009 4:00AM

<< In 1883 the US made nickels that only had a "V" on the reverse and did not indicate the word "Cents".
Some dishonest folks used these nickels for scamming.
Did the US government keep this bad design which lacked important info?
Did they say that anyone who accepts these nickels as $5 gold pieces should have informed themselves and accept the responsibility for their lack of knowledge of coin designs?

Why make slabs that give an opportunities to scammers? >>

No one is gold plating the slabs. If the "V" nickel was passed without alteration, then you could make the comparison.

dbldie55 · January 11, 2009 4:00AM

<< In 1883 the US made nickels that only had a "V" on the reverse and did not indicate the word "Cents".
Some dishonest folks used these nickels for scamming.
Did the US government keep this bad design which lacked important info?
Did they say that anyone who accepts these nickels as $5 gold pieces should have informed themselves and accept the responsibility for their lack of knowledge of coin designs?

Why make slabs that give an opportunities to scammers? >>

So you are saying that we live in the same age of information as 1883? I fail to even see a remote comparison. Most people would think the big letters "Not Gradable" meant something. Those that do not cannot be helped by changing the slab.

The only solution for those with this thought process is to not grade coins period.

coinkat · January 11, 2009 4:03AM

I sincerely hope that new collectors can figure out what side of the toast the jam is on...

lcoopie · January 11, 2009 4:07AM

It won't be counterfeit, or altered.
I still think it would be better if the "problem" was clearly noted
on the front of the holder.

mrpotatoheadd · January 11, 2009 4:07AM

I understand that, on occasion, slabbed coins are sent in for regrading and receive a lower grade than they were originally assigned. How are new collectors to be protected from those coins?

Swampboy · January 11, 2009 4:12AM

<< I would imagine that there are a lot of serious collectors that started off as coin investors. >>

Oh?

19Lyds · January 11, 2009 4:13AM

From where I sit, I think the OP's question has the exact same answer as the new collectors that buy counterfeit coins thinking they are the real deal or new collectors that buy cleaned or dipped coins thinking they got a great deal.

Regardless of what PCGS, ANAC's or NGC does, there appear to be folks on here that could have done better or that sit down and consider methods to use it against them.

Nothing has changed folks except PCGS has made it a little more difficult to resubmit those body bagged rejects. If the submitter does not agree with the assessment, then the coin will get cracked and resubmitted.

eBay has deceptive sellers, always have and always will. There is a learning courve that EVERY collector must go through regardless of what is being collected and this includes TPG slabs, raw coins, or registry sets. No two MS66's are identical just like every other grade.

Not all coins are collectible and if someone is going to put their entire collecting trust into PCGS's, ANAC's, or NGC's hands, then they'll have to assume at least a little bit of responsibility for their course of action.

BBN · January 11, 2009 4:16AM

it's like any purchase IMO. A person who is new to buying a car would be dumb to buy sight unseen or without at least trying to learn about what they're getting. New collectors should at least go cheaper and circulated raw stuff for a little while to wet their appetite and learn in the process. My first purchase when I got back into it was a Walker, a couple of mercs and a Buffalo nickel. At the time silver was only about $4/oz and these coins were all in the F-VF range. I spent about $12 on that coin purchase and about $15 on coin magazines and publications. I was happy as a lark with those coins and being new to the hobby I enjoyed those coins back then as much as I do now with high grade slabbed coins.

I guess the point I'm trying to make is a new buyer needs to be aware of any purchase they make and if they have to wet their appetite with a purchase then go cheap and skip the expensive coins in genuine slabs.

ricko · January 11, 2009 4:43AM

I agree with Keets.. grow up, read books, get educated/trained and be responsible for your decisions. Cheers, RickO

RedTiger · January 11, 2009 4:57AM

<< 

<< I am not sure if it helps but if you do a cert search it will tell you why they bagged the coin. >>

My concern is with new collectors. Would you expect a new collector at his first coin show to know this is an option? He wouldn't even know a coin in a "GENUINE" holder is a "bagged coin". It only takes a few expensive mistakes before a new collector is lost to the hobby forever.

>>

Odds are high that anyone that foolish is going to be lost forever to some other scam (or has been already). The hobby is full of sharks willing and waiting to take a bite out of newbies that spend their money without knowing anything. Always have, likely always will. To point fingers at a very small group of coins (like 0.05% of coins on the market) in PCGS genuine slabs is not connecting cause and effect.

There are tons of ways to lose money in the coin hobby. Fools will find them, no matter what the labels say, or any number of other devices or procedures that may be helpful to them. Fools lose money. Period.

TavernTreasures · January 11, 2009 5:48AM

Then, why issue a slab that makes the life of a scammer a little easier?

CertifiedGoldCoins · January 11, 2009 6:31AM

<< Then, why issue a slab that makes the life of a scammer a little easier? >>

I hope there's a better reason than one I keep reading from those who don't want the problem spelled out, so that they can sit back and pretend there's no problem because the label encodes it rather than spells it for all the world to see.

CertifiedGoldCoins · January 11, 2009 6:31AM

(double post deleted)

zeus135 · January 11, 2009 6:32AM

I really don't see the problem. Let's say I'm buying a Seated Dollar. I have 3 options:

The first is to buy a slabbed coin from a major (or minor) TPG.

The second option is to by it raw, and depend on what I know about coins. I'll do my best to make sure it's real and that it's priced right based on the grade I feel it is.

The third option is a blend of options 1 and 2. Buy it slabbed, but only as GENUINE. I know a major TPG'er guaranteed it's real, the condition is up to me. Net grading by other TPG'ers is the same thing.

Sooo...... in the Seated Dollar scenario, I can feel good about the fact that the coin I'm interested in is GENUINE or REAL.

The education that is needed for coin collecting is just as necessary as it is for say........... beanie babies, civil war memorabilia or bird watching.

JMHO

dizzlecc · January 11, 2009 6:47AM

For a beginner, I think have the term Genuine is a good start. This informs them the coin is real and not counterfeit. #1 concern.

I would rather have a newbie buy a Genuine coin then have them buy a raw coin only to find out much later that it is not high AU or mint state.

I think it would be good for a beginner to have a few Genuine coins to learn from as a guide of what to look for in the future.

ksteelheader · January 11, 2009 6:51AM

<< 

<< Then, why issue a slab that makes the life of a scammer a little easier? >>

I hope there's a better reason than one I keep reading from those who don't want the problem spelled out, so that they can sit back and pretend there's no problem because the label encodes it rather than spells it for all the world to see. >>

What part of NOT GRADABLE can't you understand????

sinin1 · January 11, 2009 8:26AM

why would a new collector want a PCGS genuine slab

when they could buy an SGS MS70 for less?

they can look up price values for MS70 items

BlindedByEgo · January 11, 2009 8:30AM

Since I've gotten back a few from PCGS recently, I hope a bunch

Swampboy · January 11, 2009 8:32AM

<< 

<< 

<< Then, why issue a slab that makes the life of a scammer a little easier? >>

I hope there's a better reason than one I keep reading from those who don't want the problem spelled out, so that they can sit back and pretend there's no problem because the label encodes it rather than spells it for all the world to see. >>

What part of NOT GRADABLE can't you understand????

>>

I'm afraid you are missing the obvious.
Some collectors cannot read.
Who's going to protect them?

drwstr123 · January 11, 2009 8:49AM

How about starting a "CAC"- like company with stickers explaining the genuine code???

lordmarcovan · January 11, 2009 8:57AM

Come to think of it, I'm not so concerned about the issue.

If a new collector buys it, unaware of a problem on it, let it be an education to him. At least he got a genuine coin.

Would it be good for PCGS to note the problem on the label in plain language? Yeah, I guess so, but like I said before, maybe they had their reasons for not doing so. I would be interested to hear them out of mild curiosity, but it's not that big a deal to me personally.

A new collector who has all enthusiasm and no sense will quickly learn. Most other new collectors who have a sincere desire to learn more about their hobby will- they'll ask the right questions. Some of them may end up here, too.

Edit- I just scrolled down and saw those reverse pictures with the "GENUINE NOT GRADABLE" label.

That's good enough for me- I think it is quite satisfactory. And the GENUINE slabs are certainly a long-overdue step in the right direction towards better customer service- far superior to the old, "here's your bodybag and oh, thanks for your money" thing.

How many new collectors will see a coin in a PCGS "GENUINE" slab and assume it's a wholeso

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How many new collectors will see a coin in a PCGS &quot;GENUINE&quot; slab and assume it's a wholeso

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How many new collectors will see a coin in a PCGS "GENUINE" slab and assume it's a wholeso