Football Hall of Fame snubs

austinchau · January 6, 2009 12:20PM

Top 10 players not in the Hall of Fame

Found this article on NFL.com. I hope Derrick Thomas can get elected this year.

Austin

lawnmowerman · January 6, 2009 12:22PM

Steve Tasker?? That just doesn't sound right to me.

ldferg · January 6, 2009 12:26PM

i always liked ken anderson.

rube26105 · January 6, 2009 12:27PM

al wistert should have been in 40 years ago

BigDaddyBowman · January 6, 2009 12:28PM

Where are the old timers????

1) Mac Speedie
2) Al Wistert
3) Frankie Albert
4) Charley Conerly

to name a few......

VitoCo1972 · January 6, 2009 12:31PM

I never saw him play, but my father in law has convinced me that Conerly is the best player not in the HOF.

Ahmanfan · January 6, 2009 12:39PM

how is DT not in?
John

BigDaddyBowman · January 6, 2009 12:42PM

Read this book...

and you willl be convinced that Mac Speedie is Hall worthy...with numbers comparable to the greatest receivers ever in the game.

otwcards · January 6, 2009 12:44PM

Al "Ox" Wistert!!! First and foremost!!!

Clemaz · January 6, 2009 12:46PM

BigDaddyBowman your knowledge of the history of football amazes me.

drewsef · January 6, 2009 12:53PM

Derrick Thomas, Charley Conerly, and Jerry Kramer not being in the Hall is ridiculous, and despite the statistics, Ken Stabler deserves it in my opinion as well.

sayheykid54 · January 6, 2009 1:40PM

Chris Carter was a fantastic receiver that hardly ever dropped the ball. He gets my vote.

mcolney1 · January 6, 2009 1:47PM

mcolney1 · January 6, 2009 1:51PM

Conerly for sure. Lots of mention by the veterans on the ESPN Greatest Game Ever Played that he should be in the hall. I would also vote for Stabler. Long career, great stats a Super Bowl victory and he was involved in a lot of memorable plays - Ghost to the Post, Holy Roller, Sea of Hands, Immaculate Reception - he ran it in from 20 plus yards out three plays before the infamous play to give the Raiders the lead. If it wasn't for the Steelers he might be wearing three rings.

BigDaddyBowman · January 6, 2009 2:10PM

<< BigDaddyBowman your knowledge of the history of football amazes me. >>

______________________________

My Grandpa used to say "That and a quarter will get me a cup of coffee!"...sheesh these days I can't even get a cup a coffee with it!

Seriously, thanks for the kind words....I taught high school history for ten years...I have always had a love of history and specifically the history of football...of course that didnt help me much in the classroom! Along with cards, I collect books about vintage era football as well. I have learned alot from them.

skilow · January 6, 2009 2:17PM

No disrespect to Derrick Thomas, but he should not get in for awhile. There are many more derserving people who played full carrers. He should not get a free pass due to his tragedy. To those who disagree, should Sean Taylor get in also? Based on full career e

Mickey71 · January 6, 2009 2:26PM

Ray Guy

PowderedH2O · January 6, 2009 2:34PM

Jerry Kramer was elected BY the NFL on the NFL's ALL-TIME team in 1969 to celebrate the 50th anniversary of the league. Being that he was already retired at that point, what could Kramer have done to NOT get in? Other linemen (like Stan Jones, etc...) that played in Kramer's era have made it in, yet he stays out. I don't get it. Stabler, I just don't agree with. He was certainly an excellent quarterback, but the numbers to me are misleading. While the Raiders were very successful during his peak years, they were also a Super Bowl team before he was the starter and after he left. If the Raiders had Archie Manning or Jim Hart as their quarterback I would guess their record would have been about the same. I also believe this to be the same argument for Terry Bradshaw, but at least he has four Super Bowl wins to justify his selection. Stabler has one. Derrick Thomas is a no-brainer. I think his off-the-field problems are what keep him out. However, I don't think he is the best linebacker not elected. Rickey Jackson was an even better linebacker that had no peers in the 80's and early 90's aside from Lawrence Taylor. The fact that Jackson spent most of his career toiling in anonymity with the Saints makes him a forgotten man. But he was ridiculously good for 15 years.

Cris Carter is one of the top ten receivers in the history of the NFL in a variety of categories. Hall of Fame - case closed. Bob Hayes was a great speedster, maybe the greatest track sprinter of the 1960's, but not an NFL Hall of Famer. Put his numbers up against Sonny Randle's. A little better, but not a whole lot. Not Hall of Fame quality. Kenny Anderson... one of the great pinpoint passers of his time. But Hall of Fame? I'd rather see Joe Theismann. Jim Marshall had a nice long career. But why is it that other teams ran all over him? I gotta believe that any good lineman would look good flanked by Carl Eller and Alan Page. But good ain't good enough for the Hall of Fame. Alex Karras is a much more legitimate candidate. Ricky Watters was an amazing talent with amazing numbers, but just like Derrick Thomas, his personality is kinda tough for him. And finally, Steve Tasker. Steve Tasker? Please....

GDM67 · January 6, 2009 2:46PM

Cris Carter and DT are recent finalists and are almost certainly on track for election sooner rather than later. I'm expecting Cris to make it this year.

A better phrasing would have been something like "Top Ten Players Who Can't Get Their Proper Due." I've been arguing for Marshall, Anderson and Stabler for a long time, now. There are a number of '70's Raiders who should get more consideration, and several Redskins of that decade who deserve a longer look and (at least in my opinion), enshrinement.

skilow · January 6, 2009 2:46PM

If DT gets in than Plax should too, due to untimely ending of their careers.

drewsef · January 6, 2009 2:47PM

<< No disrespect to Derrick Thomas, but he should not get in for awhile. There are many more derserving people who played full carrers. He should not get a free pass due to his tragedy. To those who disagree, should Sean Taylor get in also? Based on full career e >>

Derrick Thomas went to 9 Pro Bowls from 89-99 and had 126.5 sacks, and if you watched him play, there is no question he is a Hall of Famer. Let's see your long list of many more deserving players.

skilow · January 6, 2009 2:49PM

Also, all the arguements for C Carter should mean Hines Ward will be a 1st ballot, since he knows how to block. However I think he will get snubbed a few years, even though he owns almost every Steeler receiving record.

BigDaddyBowman · January 6, 2009 2:55PM

I thought that this was interesting and relevant for this discussion.

National Football League 1940s All-Decade Team
This is a list of all NFL players who have had outstanding performances throughout the 1940s and have been compiled onto this fantasy group. The team was selected by voters of the Pro Football Hall of Fame.

Offense
Position Player Team(s) played for College Hall of Famer
Quarterback Sammy Baugh Washington Redskins Texas Christian Yes
Sid Luckman Chicago Bears Columbia Yes
Bob Waterfield Cleveland Rams
Los Angeles Rams UCLA Yes
Running back Tony Canadeo Green Bay Packers Gonzaga Yes
Bill Dudley Pittsburgh Steelers
Detroit Lions Virginia Yes
George McAfee Chicago Bears Duke Yes
Steve Van Buren Philadelphia Eagles Louisiana State Yes
Charley Trippi Chicago Cardinals Georgia Yes
Byron White Detroit Lions Colorado No
Full back Marion Motley Cleveland Browns
Pittsburgh Steelers University of Nevada, Reno
South Carolina State College Yes
Pat Harder Chicago Cardinals
Detroit Lions Wisconsin No
Bill Osmanski Chicago Bears Holy Cross No
End Mac Speedie Cleveland Browns Utah No
Pete Pihos Philadelphia Eagles Indiana Yes
Ed Sprinkle Chicago Bears Hardin-Simmons University
Navy No
Dante Lavelli Cleveland Browns Ohio State Yes
Ken Kavanaugh Chicago Bears Louisiana State No
Jim Benton Cleveland Rams
Chicago Bears
Los Angeles Rams University of Arkansas No
Jack Ferrante Philadelphia Eagles none No
Tackle Al Blozis New York Giants Georgetown No
George Connor Chicago Bears Notre Dame Yes
Frank "Bucko" Kilroy Philadelphia Eagles Temple No
Buford "Baby" Ray Green Bay Packers Vanderbilt No
Vic Sears Philadelphia Eagles Oregon State No
Al Wistert Philadelphia Eagles Michigan No
Guard Bruno Banducci Philadelphia Eagles
San Francisco 49ers Stanford No
Bill Edwards New York Giants Baylor No
Garrard "Buster" Ramsey Chicago Cardinals William and Mary No
Bill Willis Cleveland Browns Ohio State Yes
Len Younce New York Giants Oregon State No
Center Charley Brock Green Bay Packers Nebraska No
Clyde "Bulldog" Turner Chicago Bears Hardin-Simmons Yes
Alex Wojciechowicz Detroit Lions
Philadelphia Eagles Fordham Yes

BigDaddyBowman · January 6, 2009 2:58PM

National Football League 1950s All-Decade Team
This is a list of all NFL players who have had outstanding performances throughout the 1950s and have been compiled onto this fantasy group. The team was selected by voters of the Pro Football Hall of Fame.

Offense
Position Player Team(s) played for College Hall of Famer
Quarterback Otto Graham Cleveland Browns Northwestern Yes
Norm Van Brocklin Los Angeles Rams
Philadelphia Eagles Oregon Yes
Bobby Layne Detroit Lions
Pittsburgh Steelers Texas Yes
Running back Frank Gifford New York Giants Southern California Yes
Ollie Matson Chicago Cardinals
Los Angeles Rams San Francisco Yes
Hugh McElhenny San Francisco 49ers Washington Yes
Lenny Moore Baltimore Colts Penn State Yes
Full back Alan Ameche Baltimore Colts Wisconsin
Joe Perry San Francisco 49ers
Baltimore Colts Compton Community Yes
Wide receiver Raymond Berry Baltimore Colts South Methodist Yes
Tom Fears Los Angeles Rams UCLA Yes
Bobby Walston Philadelphia Eagles Georgia
Elroy Hirsch Los Angeles Rams Michigan Yes
Tackle Roosevelt Brown New York Giants Morgan State Yes
Bob St. Clair San Francisco 49ers Tulsa Yes
Guard Dick Barwegan Chicago Bears
Baltimore Colts Purdue
Jim Parker Baltimore Colts Ohio State Yes
Dick Stanfel Detroit Lions
Washington Redskins San Francisco JC
San Francisco
Center Chuck Bednarik Philadelphia Eagles Pennsylvania Yes

Defense
Position Player Team(s) played for College Hall of Famer
Defensive end Len Ford Cleveland Browns
Green Bay Packers Michigan Yes
Gino Marchetti Dallas Texans
Baltimore Colts San Francisco Yes
Defensive tackle Art Donovan New York Yanks
Dallas Texans
Baltimore Colts Boston Yes
Leo Nomellini San Francisco 49ers Minnesota Yes
Ernie Stautner Pittsburgh Steelers Boston Yes
Linebacker Joe Fortunato Chicago Bears Virginia Military Institute
Mississippi State
Bill George Chicago Bears Wake Forest Yes
Sam Huff New York Giants West Virginia Yes
Joe Schmidt Detroit Lions Pittsburgh Yes
Cornerback Dick "Night Train" Lane Los Angeles Rams
Chicago Cardinals Scottsbluff Yes
Jack Butler Pittsburgh Steelers St. Bonaventure
Safety Jack Christiansen Detroit Lions Colorado State Yes
Yale Lary Detroit Lions Texas A&M Yes
Emlen Tunnell New York Giants
Green Bay Packers Iowa Yes

Special teams
Position Player Team(s) played for College Hall of Famer
Placekicker Lou Groza Cleveland Browns Ohio State Yes

BigDaddyBowman · January 6, 2009 3:01PM

National Football League 1960s All-Decade Team
The NFL 1960s All-Decade Team is a list of all NFL players who have had outstanding performances throughout the 1960s and have been compiled in a fantasy group. The team was selected by voters of the Pro Football Hall of Fame.

Offense
Position Player Team(s) played for College Hall of Famer
Quarterback Sonny Jurgensen Philadelphia Eagles
Washington Redskins Duke Yes
Bart Starr Green Bay Packers Alabama Yes
Johnny Unitas Baltimore Colts Louisville Yes
Half back John David Crow St. Louis Cardinals
San Francisco 49ers Texas A&M No
Paul Hornung Green Bay Packers Notre Dame Yes
Leroy Kelly Cleveland Browns Morgan State Yes
Gale Sayers Chicago Bears Kansas Yes
Full back Jim Brown Cleveland Browns Syracuse Yes
Jim Taylor Green Bay Packers
New Orleans Saints Louisiana State Yes
Split End Del Shofner Los Angeles Rams
New York Giants Baylor No
Charley Taylor Washington Redskins Arizona State Yes
Flanker Gary Collins Cleveland Browns Maryland No
Boyd Dowler Green Bay Packers Colorado No
Tight end John Mackey Baltimore Colts Syracuse Yes
Tackle Bob Brown Philadelphia Eagles
Los Angeles Rams Nebraska Yes
Forrest Gregg Green Bay Packers Southern Methodist Yes
Ralph Neely Dallas Cowboys Oklahoma No
Guard Gene Hickerson Cleveland Browns Mississippi Yes
Jerry Kramer Green Bay Packers Idaho No
Howard Mudd San Francisco 49ers
Chicago Bears Michigan State
Hillsdale No
Center Jim Ringo Green Bay Packers
Philadelphia Eagles Syracuse Yes

Defense
Position Player Team(s) played for College Hall of Famer
Defensive end Doug Atkins Chicago Bears
New Orleans Saints Tennessee Yes
Willie Davis Green Bay Packers Grambling State Yes
David "Deacon" Jones Los Angeles Rams South Carolina State Yes
Defensive tackle Alex Karras Detroit Lions Iowa No
Bob Lilly Dallas Cowboys Texas Christian Yes
Merlin Olsen Los Angeles Rams Utah State Yes
Linebacker Dick Butkus Chicago Bears Illinois Yes
Larry Morris Chicago Bears Georgia Tech No
Ray Nitschke Green Bay Packers Illinois Yes
Tommy Nobis Atlanta Falcons Texas No
Dave Robinson Green Bay Packers Penn State No
Cornerback Herb Adderley Green Bay Packers
Dallas Cowboys Michigan State Yes
Lem Barney Detroit Lions Jackson State Yes
Bobby Boyd Baltimore Colts Oklahoma No
Safety Eddie Meador Los Angeles Rams Arkansas Tech No
Larry Wilson St. Louis Cardinals Utah Yes
Willie Wood Green Bay Packers USC Yes

Special teams
Position Player Team(s) played for College Hall of Famer
Punter Don Chandler New York Giants
Green Bay Packers Bacone Indian JC
Florida No
Placekicker Jim Bakken St. Louis Cardinals Wisconsin No

GDM67 · January 6, 2009 3:02PM

<< Derrick Thomas went to 9 Pro Bowls from 89-99 and had 126.5 sacks, and if you watched him play, there is no question he is a Hall of Famer. Let's see your long list of many more deserving players. >>

Indeed. Anyone who thinks he's only on this list because of the way his career and life ended is really off base. He was an incredible player.

skilow · January 6, 2009 3:18PM

I am not doubting an incredible player, but HOF. He should wait in line. Why isnt Dick Lebeau in yet? He played a full career and was in the top 5 in INTs for a career when he retired. To me, this is WAY more deserving than DT, who is relying on the me

killingdream · January 6, 2009 4:04PM

<< I am not doubting an incredible player, but HOF. He should wait in line. Why isnt Dick Lebeau in yet? He played a full career and was in the top 5 in INTs for a career when he retired. To me, this is WAY more deserving than DT, who is relying on the me >>

Not to mention that he has 50 consecutive years of service as a player and coach. And that he is one of the greatest defensive coaches in the history of the game.

Ahmanfan · January 6, 2009 4:33PM

<< No disrespect to Derrick Thomas, but he should not get in for awhile. There are many more derserving people who played full carrers. He should not get a free pass due to his tragedy. To those who disagree, should Sean Taylor get in also? Based on full career e >>

How can 10 years not be a full career? Barry Sanders played 9 and had no problem getting in. Gale Sayers, etc. 11th all time in sacks, 3rd all time for linebackers, in only 10 years?? 9 pro bowls?? that has to be hall worthy.

JOhn

IchiroDeported · January 6, 2009 4:59PM

stabler had 2 great years and a couple of good years. he is NOT a HOF. Cris Carter should be a mortal lock.

GDM67 · January 6, 2009 5:34PM

<< Why isnt Dick Lebeau in yet? >>

Should've been in long ago.

rube26105 · January 6, 2009 5:38PM

so should have al "the ox" wistert" popuaraity contest,they wil let him in after he dies, and i will have more aurtographs on his cards than anybody on earth, oe coming back from psa nw, very nice nice ones with grade-got a 49 utthere in frutville, shouldgrqade very nice,thank yiu
nowallastand together aginast the brick wall

FavreFan1971 · January 6, 2009 10:21PM

Stabler should never get in my opinion. Two years were good, one of those great.

Jerry Kramer, Speedie and Ray Guy should be in. Heck should all have been in over a decade ago.

JasP24 · January 6, 2009 11:25PM

My personal top 10 all-time snubs:

Cris Carter
Jerry Kramer
Derrick Thomas
Randall McDaniel
Mick Tingelhoff
Al Wistert
Tommy Nobis
Cliff Harris
Bob Hayes
Bob Kuechenberg

Hopefully Carter and DT comes off the list this year..Carter would seem near certain, DT could get pushed back again because of Bruce Smith and Claude Humphrey..Pass rushers who are near certain to go into the HOF this year as well. Like to see either McDaniel or Kuechenberg get in before Shannon Sharpe.

Jason

Morgoth · January 6, 2009 11:30PM

Will Dick Lebeau get in as a player or coach if he gets in?

Brick · January 7, 2009 12:22AM

Derrick Thomas absolutely should be in the HOF. To not have Ray Guy on the top ten list is absurd. I would put him ahead of everyone on the list except Thomas.

JasP24 · January 7, 2009 12:30AM

<< Will Dick Lebeau get in as a player or coach if he gets in? >>

Most likely as a player. No Assistant Coach has ever been elected. He's been amongst the final 15 Senior candidates in the past, so it is not out of the question that he could be one of the Senior Selections one year.

Jason

JasP24 · January 7, 2009 12:36AM

<< Derrick Thomas absolutely should be in the HOF. To not have Ray Guy on the top ten list is absurd. I would put him ahead of everyone on the list except Thomas. >>

There are too many voters and former HOFers who do not think a Punter belongs in the HOF. In the rush for some to call Guy the greatest snub from the HOF, I think it created a backlash. So now the voters who were somewhat against voting in a Punter, are strongly against it..Simply to defend their stance against those who believe so strongly that he should be. Same thing that happened to Art Monk. Had there not been so much outrage over him not being elected, those who opposed it wouldn't have fought so hard. Eventually they gave in, but I don't know that they will for Ray Guy.

A player who makes it to the final cut in the HOF voting process must receive 80% of the votes from the committee. If during the debates it is felt that a player won't get the 80% because so many are against him, he will end up getting cut early and quiet canidates who had no push and/or no detractors like Roger Wehrli and Fred Dean from recent years get to the final cut and get the 80% votes for election.

Jason

mcolney1 · January 7, 2009 2:16AM

If Ray Guy gets in he will be only the second exclusive kicker (not counting his status as 3rd string QB) in the HOF joining Jan Stenerud. I still support Stabler and compare his numbers to some other QBs in the HOF - Joe Namath comes to mind. My nod to Stabler has a lot to do with all the notable games and plays he was directly involved in. You could argue that Gale Sayers got in because of a handful of truly memorable runs that get repeated almost daily on ESPN or the NFL Network.

What about Geno Cappelletti? He is the all-time AFL leading scorer. He had 155 points one year. Played in every AFL season. Is this still a matter of disrespect for the AFL guys?

lawnmowerman · January 7, 2009 2:42AM

<< 

<< No disrespect to Derrick Thomas, but he should not get in for awhile. There are many more derserving people who played full carrers. He should not get a free pass due to his tragedy. To those who disagree, should Sean Taylor get in also? Based on full career e >>

Derrick Thomas went to 9 Pro Bowls from 89-99 and had 126.5 sacks, and if you watched him play, there is no question he is a Hall of Famer. Let's see your long list of many more deserving players. >>

Exactly!! Also the average NFL career is only 3.5 years. DT passed that so his time put in should be considered a "full career".

Comparing him to Sean Taylor who played only from 04-07 is not a good comparison at all

BPorter26 · January 7, 2009 2:53AM

Tell me why Ray Guy is not in the Hall. The best punter of all time. Is a kicker not a football player?

FavreFan1971 · January 7, 2009 2:54AM

<< 

<< Derrick Thomas absolutely should be in the HOF. To not have Ray Guy on the top ten list is absurd. I would put him ahead of everyone on the list except Thomas. >>

There are too many voters and former HOFers who do not think a Punter belongs in the HOF. In the rush for some to call Guy the greatest snub from the HOF, I think it created a backlash. So now the voters who were somewhat against voting in a Punter, are strongly against it..Simply to defend their stance against those who believe so strongly that he should be. Same thing that happened to Art Monk. Had there not been so much outrage over him not being elected, those who opposed it wouldn't have fought so hard. Eventually they gave in, but I don't know that they will for Ray Guy.

A player who makes it to the final cut in the HOF voting process must receive 80% of the votes from the committee. If during the debates it is felt that a player won't get the 80% because so many are against him, he will end up getting cut early and quiet canidates who had no push and/or no detractors like Roger Wehrli and Fred Dean from recent years get to the final cut and get the 80% votes for election.

Jason >>

Jason and I have discussed Ray Guy plenty of times. I am floored he is not in. But Jason makes a great point. It is up to the darn voters who could care less about a punter. Too bad.

gregm13 · January 7, 2009 3:08AM

If DT isn't in the HOF, then the HOF shouldn't exist. There were many games that he was unblockable...

Greg M.

BigDaddyBowman · January 7, 2009 3:15AM

If Fred Dean is Hall worthy, then DT is absolutley Hall worthy. IMO

JasP24 · January 7, 2009 3:38AM

<< If DT isn't in the HOF, then the HOF shouldn't exist. There were many games that he was unblockable...

Greg M. >>

I think the problem is/was #1, the glut of pass rushers eligible and #2, DT isn't getting a good enough push from his presenter. This is supposedly why Cris Carter got snubbed beyond belief last year, the presentor from Minnesota is not well liked and not very good at presenting. Supposedly having someone else present the Vikings this year...lol

DT, IMO was the biggest modern snub until last year when Cris Carter didn't get in. The good thing is that the committee is finally putting some of the pass rushers into the HOF. After Smith and Humphrey go in this year, DT and Dent will follow in the coming years as the next HOF caliber pass rusher won't be on the ballot until 2013 (Michael Strahan).

A shame either had to wait but such is life in a voting process. Majority rules, everyone doesn't necessarily get what they want when they want it.

Jason

JasP24 · January 7, 2009 3:46AM

<< Tell me why Ray Guy is not in the Hall. The best punter of all time. Is a kicker not a football player? >>

I don't think its a case of Ray Guy not being deserving, but rather voters wanting other every down players elected over a 3-6 plays per game punter. Although, selecting part-time pass rush specialist Fred Dean last year was a head scratcher and sort of blows that argument out of the water.

There are also voters who do not think Ray Guy was the greatest punter ever. He certainly got the most press ever for his hang time and because he played on a great team (at the time) but I've seen arguments against him using stats that show he wasn't even the best of the 70's.

Hopefully the senior committee will find a way to put Guy and Stabler int the HOF one day. It's hard to argue that both were not great players, but the problem is there are only so many slots to go around. And in the end, I'm glad that don't put every possible borderline guy into the HOF. As the voting committee gets younger with new voters replacing older guys, it's going to get tougher and tougher for the old timers to get elected as a modern candidate. The direction it's going, a few years from now, players who've been eligible for 10-15 years won;t have a shot..It will be a case of "he's been passed over 10 times, why vote for him now" kinda thing.

Just my opinions,
Jason

PowderedH2O · January 7, 2009 5:11AM

I've never really understood the "Veterans Committee" in any Hall of Fame. The original purpose of them was to look at players that were active before the peak voting periods. But, the baseball hall opened in 1939, and the football hall in 1963. So why are players that were active AFTER these points being considered by vets committees? For baeball I understand the issue with the Negro Leagues. But football? Why is a player from the 60's being looked at by a vets committee? Good grief.

JasP24 · January 7, 2009 5:31AM

The Pro Football Hall of Fame selection process is MUCH different than the baseball HOF. In football, the slots are limited each year to just FIVE modern candidates who are voted on and need 80% approval for election. In baseball they have a much larger ballot and can select up to 10 players they think are deserving. As many of those that receive 75% of the votes can be elected. So you have far fewer "overlooked/snubbed" baseball candidates than football.

In football TWO senior committee players are selected every year and are automatically sent to final vote, needing 80% approval for election. They are not subject to the cut down to 5 modern players which may have caused some players to be eliminated from the process without ever having their names or careers put to an official "Yes/No" vote by the HOF committee. With football, having a HOF caliber career isn't always good enough. The spots are limited and there is competition for those 5 spots which leaves some deserving candidates on the outside looking in. Many of the named in this thread.

For example. The 15 modern finalists that were announced yesterday will be cut down to 10 and then to 5 on 31 January at the HOF meetings. Doesn't matter if there are 12 guys who would get 80% of the votes for induction or 2 guys that would get 80%, they MUST cut down and vote on the final 5 and ONLY 5 players.

Anyway, that's the reasoning as I understand it to be.

Jason

JasP24 · January 9, 2009 1:25AM

Hey guys, thought I would share this. Probably one of the best insight you will ever get on the process of electing HOFers..FROM a HOF voter...Enjoy...........

When Cris Carter didn't make the Pro Football Hall of Fame in his first year of eligibility last year, his colleagues on "Inside the NFL'' had a nice cry about it afterward.

Take it from a 15-year-member of the Board of Selectors, Cris Carter is a Hall of Famer. If he doesn't make it this year - and he probably will - he will make it next year or the year after. Anyone who makes it to the finals in his first year is about 99.9 percent sure of getting inducted. So are most of those who make it to the finals more than a handful of times.

The Hall of Fame finalists were made public this week. But don't ask this voter who will get in because he doesn't know. Nor does he know, except in a few cases, who he'll end up supporting. But he does want to explain the process.

So what follows is a primer that, hopefully, will clear up a few of the misunderstandings about why some people make it, why some don't. But start with this rule: Even we, the voters, are often unsure of what happens when final ballots are tallied. And even we, the voters, are often forced to vote against someone we think is worthy as the number of candidates is reduced from 17 to 10 to the seven on whom we will vote yes or no for induction that particular year.

Carter is a good example of how the real system works.

It's informal. It's one that's rarely articulated except, at times, in private conversations among voters outside "the room,'' the hotel parlor in the Super Bowl city where the debate is held each year. But it's a system that voters absorb as they go along, returning every winter to consider which four, five, six or seven of the 17 finalists to enshrine in Canton.

To start with, the 44 voters, a number that's increasing gradually, are divided into two categories - "at large,'' like this one, or voters representing a team, even those now defunct - who are responsible for "presenting'' players from their cities. It's an imperfect system, especially if the presenter either doesn't think his candidate is especially worthy. But right now it's the best one that exists.

In an informal way, the candidates can be broken down into categories.

1. "Slam dunk,'' a term stolen from another sport.

Darrell Green last year; Dan Marino, John Elway, Joe Montana, Emmitt Smith in recent years. Jerry Rice in upcoming years. Bruce Smith and perhaps Rod Woodson in this year's class. Very little debate.

When Walter Payton was up for selection, his presenter unrolled a long scroll of paper, perhaps 20 yards long, and said "these are his accomplishments. I could read them all but I don't think I have to.'' Then he tossed the paper on the floor.

No discussion. Election.

2. Sure to get in quickly, many of whom provoke a "Why didn't he make it?'' debate if they don't get in the first time they are up.

Carter is in this category. So were Thurman Thomas and Michael Irvin, who made it on their second and third times around. They sometimes are held back because priority might go to candidates left over from previous selection processes; seniority isn't discussed, but it's there. Carter most likely failed last year because voters decided that Art Monk, another wide receiver, had been kept waiting long enough. Carter and his advocates can argue that he was "better'' than Monk. He might have been. But seniority prevailed and Carter will get his due.

3. The debate provokers.

Many are players at positions without definable stats: offensive line and some defensive positions. But even stats can be deceptive.

Monk was the career receptions leader with 940 when he retired. His supporters portrayed him as the perfect possession receiver, a player would always get you 10 yards on third-and-9. His detractors suggested that opponents didn't fear him as much as some of his teammates. It also may have hurt him that he was naturally quiet and rarely talked to the media very much. This voter doesn't worry about those things. Others might. But the numbers eventually prevailed.

Another in this group was Harry Carson, the former Giants linebacker. He had a split career. In the first part, he was by far the best player on bad teams, a superstar playing on a loser. In the second part, he was a winner, the captain of a Super Bowl champion who played next to Lawrence Taylor. The anti-Carsons suggested he benefited from Taylor's presence. The pro-Carsons noted how good he was on a bad team and how much he helped even Taylor on a good one.

Again, it took a while, but he crept up the board and finally made it. Deservedly.

Are there guys like that on this year's ballot? Maybe Andre Reed, who as a receiver will have a difficult time in the future as Rice and Tim Brown and others move in. Perhaps Dermonnti Dawson and Randall McDaniel, two deserving offensive linemen.

4. Contributors.

Always a murky category, a group often put aside by those who believe players should take priority. There are two on the ballot this year: former commissioner Paul Tagliabue and Buffalo Bills owner Ralph Wilson.

Tagliabue is in a category all to himself. His supporters, and there are many in "the room,'' point simply to his accomplishments: labor peace, huge increases in television revenues, and the increasing popularity of the game. Detractors suggest that the potential problems in extending the current labor contract are part of his legacy, as are the lack of teams in Los Angeles and new stadiums in California.

Subtext? The fact that some voters didn't like him personally. Personal feelings shouldn't count, but people are voting, so they always do.

Of course, there always are exceptions to rules on seniority. Or on personality. Or on just about everything else.

Last year, for example, Fred Dean leapfrogged Derrick Thomas and made it. So did Andre Tippett, who spent most of his career on losing teams in New England and only came to the attention of voters midway through his period of eligibility.

Dean and Tippett had been eligible many years before they were even mentioned. But the arguments for them were good enough that they moved ahead of Thomas, who made it to the finals in his first year of eligibility. Thomas might have been hurt because, among other things, the Kansas City Chiefs may have pushed a little too hard supporting him. Voters are crusty and don't need glossy "highlight'' brochures - football is a team game, the Hall of Fame is an individual honor.

But Thomas, like Monk and Carson, seems to have reached a point where the feeling is "put him in.'' Expect it this year or next.

Then, finally, there is what is called "the Hal of Very Good,'' coined, I believe, by Peter King of Sports Illustrated, NBC and about 50 other media outlets.

Those are the players who often get considerable support from fans - outstanding players who might be just short of HOF worthiness, although many voters believe they deserve at least a debate. Try Roger Craig, Rickey Jackson, Carl Banks, Sam Mills, Leroy Butler and many others.

Another variable: A player's fate sometimes depends on the skill of his presenter - positive and negative. Some marginal players have made it because of a convincing presentation. Others have failed because theirs has been less than persuasive.

Football Hall of Fame snubs

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