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EBAY - Negative FB from NON-PAYING bidder!!!!
bobbyw8469
Posts: 7,144 ✭✭✭
My g/f flipped out because we got our first negative today from a NON-PAYING bidder.....I told her its the cost of doing business, but she doesn't understand how we can do everything by the book, and go out of our way with free shipping + insurance and still get negged.....any advice?
Check out the feedback
Check out the feedback
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WTB: 2001 Leaf Rookies & Stars Longevity: Ryan Jensen #/25
If the OP posts the "buyer's" EXACT response to the NPB here, I will look for
a loophole.
You can make a novel argument that the word "moron" falls into the prohibited
comment category, but it is a stretch. (The libs at EBAY might fall for the notion
that such a comment is an ADA-violation and that it constitutes hate speech
against a protected class. The word "retard" is in a similar category.)
The "buyer" is clearly a few marbles short of a picnic.
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Doing BINs w/o Instant Payment Required is an invite to this kind of garbage.
<< <i>Nah Ladder..I dont buy on Ebay....only sell....and when you file the NPB report, if he responds ANYTHING at all, he gets to leave a NEG. I can file a report, and he can respond "I will gladly pay once I have amassed 2,500 S&H Green stamps"....then he gets to leave a NEG......the new EBAY is a crock of s***t!!! The only thing that will do him in is if he gets two more strikes.....I gave him a strike, but I cant leave a NEG and I dont know how many strikes he has.,..... >>
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The rules are different on NEGs and NPBs than they used to be.
Your recitation is from the old playbook.
Under the current scheme, a NEG can be removed if:
The "buyer" fails to recite a problem with either the item or the seller
in the NPB response.
eg: The seller was very rude to me and I felt threatened.
eg: As I was about to pay, somebody I trust told me the card was a counterfeit.
Both of those are acceptable comments and allow for the "buyer" to leave a NEG.
......
eg: I do not have the money.
That is NOT an acceptable comment and precludes the "buyer" from leaving FB.
In the old days, any response at all was acceptable; not anymore.
Him: Payment has been shipped for this item.I think the Holidays are causing a delay. I purchased items
12/20 and still have not received them yet.
Us: You have not received the item because I have not received payment yet.
Him: I was not talking about your item.I was talking about other items I purchased on 12/20 from other
sellers and still have not received them due to the Holidays. That is probably why you have not
received the money order yet.You sure did jump the gun on the Unpaid Items Strike.
Us: I dont think I jumped the gun at all. I waited 9 days before I filed the dispute. My terms of sale
say this will be done after 7 days.
Then the negative was left......still no payment today....I dont believe it was ever sent out.
I'm not saying what that guy did was right but I usually wait 7 days before I email
the buyer to see what is up. A NPB is filed only as a last resort and after 15 days
at the least.
Sounds like he was communicating with you.
Steve
7 days is a bit quick especially with Xmas and NY's sandwiched in here.
Once Ebay is completely all Paypal, 7 days is probably reasonable.
IMO nobody cares when a card was graded.........Why not add HOF or some other potential search keyword instead. The cronin listed is a 1.
Clearly NOT undergraded. Very nice 57 Koubek
Instead of dropping the hammer and giving the buyer an NPB alert ...just give a very friendly email. Works try it. Instead you managed to piss them off. Most of the professional sellers I have seen wait at least 3 weeks before doing anything like that.
The buyer's feedback was also relatively low. If it was 500+ then they probably would have had more ebay etiquite...but it was 120...so there is the possibility of
something bad happening.
Hope this doesn't happen again to you.
1948-76 Topps FB Sets
FB & BB HOF Player sets
1948-1993 NY Yankee Team Sets
"Him: Payment has been shipped for this item. I think the Holidays are causing a delay.
I purchased items 12/20 and still have not received them yet."
..
In the future, immediately close the dispute after a "buyer" responds like this.
(Continuing to argue/discuss is a sure way to risk that the "buyer" will fall
into clear compliance with the rules that allow him to leave NEGs.)
.........
Us: You have not received the item because I have not received payment yet.
Him: I was not talking about your item.I was talking about other items I purchased on 12/20 from other
sellers and still have not received them due to the Holidays.
(You could make a stretch case that this comment by the "buyer" related to "a different transaction"
and that the NPB was not properly responded to. A rookie CSR might buy it.)
Lorrie Norrington's clear position is that an NPB respondent must mention dissatisfaction with "either
the seller or the seller's product," in order to be allowed to leave FB.
............................
What we are up against here is EBAY's position that they "do not know how to prove" the buyer is lying
when he says he "sent the payment."
EBAY, generally, says that the buyer's inability to prove payment is the fault of the seller for allowing
paper payments. If an NPB claims to have paid electronically, the proof is clear and can be used to
appeal a wrongfully left NEG. While such appeals are not 100% successful, they do sometimes fly.
Enhanced protection for Unpaid Item: In addition to removing Feedback left by buyers who fail to respond to the Unpaid Item process, we now also remove Feedback when the buyer responds but it's clear they did not complete the transaction—for example, if they state they bought the item elsewhere or had a family emergency. Sellers don't deserve negative or neutral Feedback in such cases, and we now remove it.
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I would ask for the FB removal as follows:
Dear EBAY T&S:
I hereby request that the subject NEGative FB be removed from my record, on the following
grounds:
1. The NPB failed to express any dissatisfaction with either the seller or the seller's product as
grounds for his failure to pay. This violates the requirement that the NPB properly respond to
the filing in order to retain his right to leave NEGative FB. Such violation creates forfeiture of
said right.
2. The NPB refused to provide proof - electronic or otherwise - that his payment had been sent.
The NPB never paid for his BIN purchase.
3. In his NPB-response, the "buyer" made reference to transactions not remotely related to the disputed
transaction. This violates the requirement that the NPB properly respond to the filing in order to retain
his right to leave NEGative FB. Such violation creates forfeiture of said right.
4. The FB comments left by the NPB constitute hate-speech against a class of mentally-challenged
persons which class is protected from such aspersions under the Americans With Disabilities Act.
Specifically, the use of the word "moron," is an ADA violation in the issued context and on its face.
Lorrie Norrigton has repeatedly said that the issue of NPBs leaving FB must be guided
by fairness. The instant circumstances scream for fairplay to intervene.
Please cause to be removed the complained of false, unfair, hate-based, and defamatory FB left by the NPB.
Thank you very much for your favorable consideration of my request.
Very Respectfully,
seller
.......
(As far as I know, #5 - the ADA stuff - is far from entirely accurate and true. But, the boys and girls at EBAY T&S
are susceptible to being influenced by such arguments. The chances of them doing any research on the issue are slim.)
To win, you will likely have to FAX your pitch, and you may have to get a T&S supervisor on the phone.
The removal process may be more work than it is worth. Each seller has to decide that for himself.
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Great Britain has explicit laws against "hate speech against the disabled," but they largely apply
to such speech by government officials.
In the USA, the ADA is a good card to play when arguing the issue to non-lawyers. The
law is evolving and will be made much broader soon.
California Story
/////////////////////////////////////////////
General Policy:
Feedback removal: We’ll remove Feedback under the following exceptional circumstances:
It violates specific policies
It’s left by a user who is later suspended
It’s left by a buyer who fails to respond to an Unpaid Item Notice and you file an Unpaid Item strike.
It contains vulgar language
It contains personal contact information
We’ve received a valid court order to remove the Feedback
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Another possibility is to check the NPBs contact info. If his addy, email addy, or phone number
are not correctly listed, the FB can also be removed in a more complex process.
Feedback comments containing any of the following are not permitted:
Political, religious, or social commentary rather than a genuine comment about the transaction
Would this feedback?: This Seller is a Complete Moron and Has No Concept of what Business is...
...fall under social commentary?
Seller: It's been 9 days and I haven't received payment for the item. Just checking to see if it was sent out or whether there was a problem. Thanks.
Buyer: I sent it out on 12/20 but a lot of my mail has been delayed so it could be the holidays causing the delay.
Seller: No problem, thanks for letting me know. I'll keep an eye out for it.
Maybe he didn't send it out yet and is just sending it out; Does it really matter in the end as long as you get your money? In the grand scheme of things, why do you care so much whether you get your money in 7 days or 14 days? People like you are the reason why ebay has at least some valid reasons for instituting their paypal-only payment policy. Loosen up.
Lee
Would this feedback?: This Seller is a Complete Moron and Has No Concept of what Business is...
...fall under social commentary?
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I dunno.
I guess one could argue that they belonged to the Church of Moronic Disciples,
and were harmed when someone called them a "moron."
I like the hate-speech stuff better, though. If someone called somebody the "n word"
or called them a bad name for homosexuals, that would be removed as hate-speech;
rightfully so, under sundry state/federal laws.
If mentally-disabled folks are fair game for derision, there is unfairness afoot. Any
immutable characteristic can be argued to be "protected."
///////////////////////
I do only BINs on EBAY. I only use IPR and never, of course, have NPBs. If folks
want to Buy It Now, they should be ready to Pay For It Now. WalMart has the
same policy.
As noted by others above, if you need to file an NPB, it is really best to wait a long time.
When I used to get them, I filed after about 30-days; by that time, most buyers did not
even respond to the dispute.
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I hope your appeal works, but it is only a +/- 50/50 shot.
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When I used to do auctions, most of the tardy folks who said they were
sending checks/MOs, never came through.
A sale is not a sale until I get paid. While I don't personally need to get
paid promptly, it is not unreasonable to suspect that many little sellers
on EBAY are trying to get speedy money for necessities.
PayPal only is going to get rid of the problem, in any event.
John
HOF SIGNED FOOTBALL RCS
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i>I agree with Steve. Filing an NPB after 9 days when two of those days (not counting weekends) were Christmas and New Year's is way too premature. He's never left any other seller a negative comment...I think you jumped the gun on this deal and should not be surprised that he responded the way he did. Sorry, JMHO. >>
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While the claim was filed way too soon, the "buyer" is a semi-chronic.
He likes to pull the trigger, but has some problem paying for the targets.
He then leaves NEGs for the sellers he stiffs, after they file a dispute.
The OP should have included the serial-aspects of the "buyer's" conduct
in his appeal of the NEG.
history of deadbeatism
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OP
If your appeal is denied, you can call T&S and ask for a supervisor.
If that fails, you can call Griff and send him the whole story.
If that fails, you can file a San Jose BBB complaint against EBAY for
revoking your potential rights to "consumer discounts and search-placement
benefits," through their failure to comply with and enforce their own policies
in regard to NPBs and FB.
You can also notify Ina Steiner at auctionbytes.com. She is always
interested in knowing what is up.
Or, you can just let it go. Up to you.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
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Absolutely TRUE.
.............
Using ONLY Immediate Payment Required on BINs has made EBAY bearable
for me this past year. It means never having to ask for money, and let's me
just be a packer and a shipper.
Immediate payment is a good thing for sure, but I have sellers that tell me things like take your time, pay whenever you can, or want to. Well I'm a good customer so I shouldn't be surprised about treatment like this. But sellers and buyers have to loosen up... "It's just good business".
The only neg that I have ever left in anger, was to a guy that didn't send me my toy train... And that is beyond the pale of all humanity.
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The challenge is that most EBAY sellers are working on their kitchen table,
trying to get a few dollars to buy some groceries, and do not think of themselves
as being "in business."
I tell folks if they want "fast cash," use Craig's List. EBAY is just not the right
place to do hand-to-mouth deals, like it was 10-years ago.
I don't sell in collectibles, but there is no way I could play on EBAY if I had to keep
track of waiting for payments from folks. Most all of the money I make on EBAY
would be paid to somebody processing payments and dunning non-payers.
Sellers are given all of the tools - by EBAY - that are required to avoid most
non-payment problems. Those who do not use those tools simply have to
do as noted above and "loosen up."
Storm888,
As a member of this community, thank you for listing all the avenues of how one can fight a case like this. It really does help us all. Few people are so knowledgeable, and even fewer from that bunch that share it so freely. I would encourage anyone to try the BBB (Bureau of Better Business) before a lawsuit and never give up on a case until at least the BBB was tried.
BST: Tennessebanker, Downtown1974, LarkinCollector, nendee
You can keep your 7 day policy written on your auctions, but enforcing that quickly is a different story. While I agree with your attitude that losing on some deals is simply the cost of doing business, but you pulled the NPB too soon. As far as your g/f wondering how can one go by the book and still lose....that is life. Things are not so black and white--there is a lot of gray area. While I understand your policy of 7 days was followed, the buyer did communicate that the holiday mail was slow (which is reasonable of an excuse). It is good to stick to your policy, but have some safety valve or room for situations that may not be text book.
I wish you all the best in how you pursue this case. Just take a lesson from here if you do not pursue this any further. If you still want a perfect feedback record, I think there is still a lot of hope. The buyer can remove it. Its a new ebay policy that buyers can remove feedback if they have been made whole. I know this may seem like an extortion process, but its there.
BST: Tennessebanker, Downtown1974, LarkinCollector, nendee
You did the right thing by clearing up the matter with your follow-up comment.
It's not worth a few bucks to risk your excellent rep. It 's completely unfair that a NPB is allowed to do this and you learned this the hard way.
Try to get the thing removed (ie; Your Ex is a moron and you're deeply offended) and don't rattle any more cages, 'til you research their Payback history. Also, if you find out his 'Sellers' ID give a shout. He deserves a dose of his own medicine. Revenge is sweet
All the more reason not to do what you did. I bet you didn't get the money either.
In the future wait at least 2 weeks before sending the dispute.
One negative is no big deal, especially if the reply is done in a professional manner.
I often wonder why sellers make such demands on buyers.
In over 2000 transactions I have had maybe 3 or 4 deals that went sour
and all but one was taken care of. The lone negative I received was in retaliation from
some scammer.
This buyer had a history of not paying and leaving negs too.
Steve
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The "auto-pay" has been in the works for a long time.
They "hope" to roll it out sometime in 2009. I though it
would be the first-quarter, but they said last week that
was not to be.
The scheme will - at the outset - be ONLY for BINs. Later,
it will be done on auctions. (If there are any auctions left
by then.)
The primary beneficiary of the change will be EBAY. They
lose MILLIONS on unwinding the NPB problems. MANY
employees will be fired when they are no longer needed
to work on NPBs.
Ebay's feedback problem is not in the neg/pos or comments being removed or even the buyer being the only person that can leave a neg, the problem is the fact that too many people put too much emphasis on it. When the seller's used to hold FB hostage, it was because the buyers put too much time and worry about FB percentage. Ebay has compounded this situation when they added the DSR stars and even further compounded the problem by giving FVF discounts.
Their best solution would be to leave the numerical aspects out of the feedback and let people make their own decisions.
<< <i>The new EBay feedback system SUCKS! I heard they were trying to implement a process where when a bidder wins an item the money is automatically taken out of their account right then and there....that sounds like it would fix that sort of problem. Not sure how far along the stage that process is coming.....any thoughts? >>
If you guys honestly think that this kind of payment policy would be good for sellers then it's clear you don't do much selling on Ebay-- or if you do, you don't sell a lot of stuff where the market it thin. I routinely have repeat bidders/buyers who I allow to take up to a month (or more) to pay-- if you don't do that you will lose a ton of bids.
High-volume sellers that combine shipping for items won on different days (4SC, DSL, sandlotauctions, BBCExchange, etc.) will be very negatively affected by such a change.
I've bought lots and lots of individual graded cards from 4SC at $3 apiece because I know that combined shipping will push the final cost only to about $3.75 or less. If I know that I'm going to be automatically hit with full shipping on each one (making them cost $7 apiece), most of those buys disappear.
Nick
Reap the whirlwind.
Need to buy something for the wife or girlfriend? Check out Vintage Designer Clothing.
It maybe as simple as the shopping-cart that was used on EBAY-Express; or,
it may be more complex.
It will ALSO solve the multi-item problem with the current "Immediate Payment Required"
feature.
They work on it everyday; maybe summer.
Steve
<< <i>EBAY will not remove the NEG, if the "buyer" responded properly to the NPB.
If the OP posts the "buyer's" EXACT response to the NPB here, I will look for
a loophole.
You can make a novel argument that the word "moron" falls into the prohibited
comment category, but it is a stretch. (The libs at EBAY might fall for the notion
that such a comment is an ADA-violation and that it constitutes hate speech
against a protected class. The word "retard" is in a similar category.)
The "buyer" is clearly a few marbles short of a picnic.
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Doing BINs w/o Instant Payment Required is an invite to this kind of garbage. >>
Who brings marbles to a picnic?
My eBay Store
BigCrumbs! I made over $250 last year!
I have gotten 2 neg's on ebay
In one the buyer "accidentally" left me a neg
i emailed him and asked whats up
he said he meant to leave it for a different seller not me
He finally got rid of the neg a month later.
In my other neg the buyer had an unconfirmed address
Now i say in my ebay listings i am not responsible for the safe arrivel of
items to unconfirmed addresses.
So sent the item internationally (i wanted tracking but they wanted to charge me an extra $80 for it)
So about 3 weeks later the guy email me and asked why hasn't it arrived yet?
So i sent him a scan of the shipping reciept
2 days later he left a neg anyway saying that i had really kept the cards and just blamed the post office!!!
I sent him the shipping reciept plus the whole unconfirmed address thing!!! Come on man!!!
Ebay's feedback system is terrible!