A relation between the strike and steps on Jefferson nickels

Comments

• quickwing Posts: 1,155

  December 30, 2008 12:59AM

  leo, you sure know Jeff's. A question about Full Strike pls. Are you referring to both the obverse & reverse of the same coin when you designate full strike?
  I've often wondered if the obverse appears strong and fully struck would that lessen the chance of a strong full-step reverse? How much of the "full strike" would be attributed to the die condition? It would be great if you would go into depth about your observations. Thanks

  OLDER IS BETTER

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• leothelyon Posts: 8,537 ✭✭✭✭✭

  December 30, 2008 5:06AM

  
  
  << <i>leo, you sure know Jeff's. A question about Full Strike pls. Are you referring to both the obverse & reverse of the same coin when you designate full strike? >>
  
  
  
  That would be the case.
  
  
  
  << <i>I've often wondered if the obverse appears strong and fully struck would that lessen the chance of a strong full-step reverse? >>
  
  
  
  That's how it would appear.
  
  
  
  << <i>How much of the "full strike" would be attributed to the die condition? >>
  
  
  
  Fresh working dies should give a coin stronger details.
  
  
  
  << <i>It would be great if you would go into depth about your observations. Thanks >>
  
  
  
  Due to the scarcity of high quality material that's not readily available to the new collector, indepth knowledge would fall on deaf ears. But this is the most exciting part about coin collecting, finding that needle in the haystack no-one else can have. Besides, most info. is there for the adventurous. They can learn the basics on their own through their own research.
  
  
  Leo
  
  

  The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!

  My Jefferson Nickel Collection

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• cladking Posts: 29,902 ✭✭✭✭✭

  December 30, 2008 7:58AM

  Normally dies wear evenly on Jeffersons and they get swapped out
  together so at least both obverse and reverse will share die state.
  There's also some correlation between strike quality on the obverse
  and reverse but there is a sort of perverse ability for most Jeffersons
  to have one side or the other without sufficient die fill. Of course, this
  is critical and a defining property of strike quality so it can be said
  that if one side is nice the other isn't. This is probably the result of
  the dies just needing more metal in the vicinity of the ear/ Monticello
  than most planchets can provide.
  
  There's also the disconcerting tendency for one side or the other to
  be marked up and the tendency for nicely made coins to be roughly
  handled.
  
  Older Jeffersons dies often had the steps so deeply recessed in the
  die that they wouldn't appear on the coins until the die became worn.
  Some of the modern dates, especially those from the '60's and '70's
  had dies made from hubs which lacked the step detail altogether.
  Very few dies for '68-S's had more than a step or two even when
  they were brand new.
  
  ttt

  tempus fugit extra philosophiam.

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• BigDowgie Posts: 1,785 ✭✭✭✭

  December 30, 2008 10:21AM

  Leo, interesting observations! I will have to ponder this one for a bit. We do have the prime example of this relationship between wore dies and step quality, which is our beloved 1953-S. This is probably the extreme, but does suppost your theory. Though, this date has one exception that I know of and that coin is in your set!
  Dowgie

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• leothelyon Posts: 8,537 ✭✭✭✭✭

  December 30, 2008 10:42AM

  Cladking, great info.
  
  I was really intrigued to start this post when that lot 1210 1949-D popped up. First the 1948-D, next came the 1948-S and then the 1949-D all with very weak strikes. The only struck up detail being the steps, almost 6 of them. I was also happy to see PCGS not designating those coins FS although there are a couple in that stretch that did and shouldn't have.
  
  Which coins did you think were the best in strike, grade and steps?
  
  
  Leo

  The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!

  My Jefferson Nickel Collection

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• leothelyon Posts: 8,537 ✭✭✭✭✭

  December 30, 2008 10:58AM

  
  
  << <i>Leo, interesting observations! I will have to ponder this one for a bit. Dowgie >>
  
  
  
  Of course, you have been pondering this with every coin in the Registry set. There better not be any misguided dogs in there for the purpose of padding some false GPA readings!
  That just wouldn't be practical! Unethical to say the least! A dupery in his finest moments!
  
  
  Leo

  The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!

  My Jefferson Nickel Collection

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• keets Posts: 25,351 ✭✭✭✭✭

  December 30, 2008 11:51AM

  From this analyst, it can easily be seen how coins with less than a full strike will show an improvement in step detail while those coins with strong strikes, the steps did not strike up very well.
  
  typical strike-----good overall detail but incomplete(not WEAK) strike results in the dies wearing and the step area of the dies being used to a much lesser degree, wearing at a slower rate.
  
  atypical strike-----a complete strike from a slightly/heavily worn die pair showing softer overall detail from worn dies but crisp steps from the area of the die which had worn at a slower rate.
  
  it's funny you should mention 1948-D. about 4-5 years ago i won about eight of that date in a local club auction and while three of them had decent steps, the entire group had soft overall detail. one subsequently graded MS66FS at the factory.
  
  
  

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• WoodenJefferson Posts: 6,491 ✭✭✭✭

  December 30, 2008 12:19PM

  Interesting concepts, rational, but somewhat hard to ingest all at once. I agree with your hypothesis and takes more than just a casual interest to go in depth to find out the rhyme and reason for why things happen like they do on a Jefferson nickel.

  Chat Board Lingo
  
  "Keep your malarkey filter in good operating order" -Walter Breen

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• mike92694 Posts: 1,068

  December 30, 2008 12:39PM

  Out of curiosity, are these your own coins? I honestly can't see how one can tell the degree of steps just by looking at this pics, unless I'm not using the pic magnification correctly.
  
  

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• stephunter Posts: 2,324 ✭✭✭

  December 30, 2008 4:39PM

  This is probably like the full head standing liberty quarters. There are many that have full head, but lack detail in the shield and therefore would not be considered completely/fully struck. Kind of brings us back to having the designation of "fully struck" for coins instead of full head, full steps, full bands, and so on. But the downside would be how to define fully struck. Art vs. science in some respects.

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• cladking Posts: 29,902 ✭✭✭✭✭

  December 30, 2008 5:40PM

  
  
  << <i>This is probably like the full head standing liberty quarters. There are many that have full head, but lack detail in the shield and therefore would not be considered completely/fully struck. Kind of brings us back to having the designation of "fully struck" for coins instead of full head, full steps, full bands, and so on. But the downside would be how to define fully struck. Art vs. science in some respects. >>
  
  
  
  It's easier to quantify than most aspects of grade.
  
  Fully struck coins rarely have 100% of all the detail in the design. They
  tend to have about 99%. I define fully struck as every design element
  having nearly 100% of the design that was on the hub.
  
  This means the periphery lettering has high flat sides and is slightly round-
  ed at the top.
  
  A lot of fully struck Jeffersons don't have full steps.

  tempus fugit extra philosophiam.

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• coinkat Posts: 24,357 ✭✭✭✭✭

  January 7, 2009 8:54AM

  A lot of fully struck Jeffersons don't have full steps.
  
  
  Which is a significant reason the Full Steps designation is not the best measurement of this series...
  
  Anyone remember the Full Monticello discussion on the forum earlier? It is part of the progress that needs to be made in developing real standard that involves more of the coin's design in establishing an appropriate grade.
  
  Full Steps does not make sense
  
  
  Anyone remember the Full shield on SL Quarters?
  
  To remind folks, grading is an evolutionary process and current designations for these two series need help and revision
  
  

  Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.

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• leothelyon Posts: 8,537 ✭✭✭✭✭

  January 7, 2009 12:59PM

  
  
  << <i>A lot of fully struck Jeffersons don't have full steps.
  Which is a significant reason the Full Steps designation is not the best measurement of this series...
  Anyone remember the Full Monticello discussion on the forum earlier? It is part of the progress that needs to be made in developing real standard that involves more of the coin's design in establishing an appropriate grade. Full Steps does not make sense Anyone remember the Full shield on SL Quarters?
  To remind folks, grading is an evolutionary process and current designations for these two series need help and revision >>
  
  
  
  The best plan of attack for all this confusion is to post a great coin. Because the coin will
  end all arguments when it's fully struck. It may not FS or cross with PCGS, It may only
  grade MS66 is some eyes but there's one thing that makes this coin really stand out
  above most others, including the fact that a 1944-P is a very difficult coin to find with a full strike.
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Cheers, Leo

  The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!

  My Jefferson Nickel Collection

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