1946 book signed by Ruth, Cobb, Williams... Real or fake, opinions wanted.
brendanb438
Posts: 1,595 ✭✭✭
A buddy and outright god at finding amazing items at flea markets, yard sales, etc. just came across the item pictured below. What is your guys opinion on this possibly being real.
This is the info he posted on this.
My wife recently bought a book at the local library book sale. It was a "Donated" book and not from the library collection. She paid 50 cents for it. The title is "The Detroit Tigers" written by Frederick Lieb. It is a first edition and printed in 1946. Now the good part, it has 42 baseball player autographs in it. They cover the inside covers (front and back covers) and all the blank pages. A couple of the autographs are: Ty Cobb, Ted Williams, Fred Lieb, Connie Mack, Rogers Hornsley and many others. Any experts here want to give some advice about marketing this (authentication, auctions)?
What do you guys think?
Brendan
This is the info he posted on this.
My wife recently bought a book at the local library book sale. It was a "Donated" book and not from the library collection. She paid 50 cents for it. The title is "The Detroit Tigers" written by Frederick Lieb. It is a first edition and printed in 1946. Now the good part, it has 42 baseball player autographs in it. They cover the inside covers (front and back covers) and all the blank pages. A couple of the autographs are: Ty Cobb, Ted Williams, Fred Lieb, Connie Mack, Rogers Hornsley and many others. Any experts here want to give some advice about marketing this (authentication, auctions)?
What do you guys think?
Brendan
0
Comments
edited to add: the only couple that (sort of) look good are the Gehringer and Heilmann and maybe a couple others, the Ruth is a joke
Other problems.......... McGraw Passed Away in 1934, the book was made 12 years later = impossible!
Thanks for the opinions. For 50 cents it was worth a chance by his wife.
I guess I can't lock a thread I made on these boards, if a MOD wants to please lock. Thanks
now with that being said, the bob feller and chas gehringer look good at a quick glance. without a better pic though, hard to tell. it could be a book with a few 'good' signatures and some pin head added a bunch of fakes....who knows
Currency Wants: Any note with serial number 00000731
http://www.motownsports.com/forums/showthread.php?t=64640
http://www.detroitsportscollectors.com/yabb/YaBB.pl
http://www.rarebooklink.com/cgi-bin/kingbooks/96-8671
THE DETROIT TIGERS.
G.P. Putnam's Sons: NY 1946 Photos, 8.25 x 5.75, cloth, 276 pp, minor edge wear else a nice copy in slightly yellowed edgeworn (minor tears) dw, minor discolor to endpapers. FIRST ED, BOLDLY SIGNED BY LIEB, CHAS. GEHRINGER AND HARRY HEILMAN. SCARCE.
<< <i>Another link which may answer some questions:
http://www.rarebooklink.com/cgi-bin/kingbooks/96-8671
THE DETROIT TIGERS.
G.P. Putnam's Sons: NY 1946 Photos, 8.25 x 5.75, cloth, 276 pp, minor edge wear else a nice copy in slightly yellowed edgeworn (minor tears) dw, minor discolor to endpapers. FIRST ED, BOLDLY SIGNED BY LIEB, CHAS. GEHRINGER AND HARRY HEILMAN. SCARCE. >>
And those 3 are just in the right spot as well.
I bet the 3 autographs .... Leib (Author), Gehringer, and Heilmann in the middle on the right page are authentic, and all the others were forged by a 12 year old kid back in the 1950s or so.
<< <i>Nice find on the link to the other book.
I bet the 3 autographs .... Leib (Author), Gehringer, and Heilmann in the middle on the right page are authentic, and all the others were forged by a 12 year old kid back in the 1950s or so. >>
The one that caught me right away was of course Ruth died in 1948, but that would have left a little time if there were some sort of show(s) or something where they were all together. I didn't spend a lot of time on it, but was just wondering if the "McGraw" could have been his son or something like that, just signing for his dad at a show - sounds a little crazy but those were more "innocent" times back then and autographs weren't worth that much anyway so why not have the son of John McGraw sign the book - just a total guess on that assuming the autographs could be real...and I honestly don't know.
The OP stated 42 autographs - Would be interesting to see the others as well which may provide more clues.
<< <i>I will try and get a pic of the rest of the autos and I will post it up here tomorrow. >>
I think it's possible you may have a winner there - I'm not by any means an expert on autographs but take for example the Ruth - I doubt around that time he was in very good health, and I could envision if he was at a show signing a lot, that he would get a bit tired and just scribble his name a little bit - also not easy trying to write at the bottom of the book cover area like that....hence the "poor quality" of the autograph.
Plus it was after the war, money was tight, and even though some of those guys weren't poor, they had their various business ventures whereby keeping their name in the limelight was financially beneficial to them, as well of course to their ego of fan admiration at a show. So far, I just don't see any red flags there...and if someone was fooling around and writing fake autographs in their book and wrote in deceased John McGraw, why not choose somebody like Gehrig, etc to do?
John
HOF SIGNED FOOTBALL RCS
I think that's about all I can add - good luck!
A rare and extremely unusual baseball item from a dinner thrown in John McGraw’s honor at the Hotel Venice in Florida on March 12, 1927. The occasion was McGraw’s 25th anniversary as New York Giants manager. The menu has a heavy vertical crease. What did Hall of Famers eat in 1927? Filet of Pompano and Guinea Hen were served as the main course, with Crabmeat Cochtail for openers.
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=Zr8KAAAAIBAJ&sjid=sU0DAAAAIBAJ&pg=6717,2932421&dq=babe-ruth-foundation+1947
On September 27, 1947, a charity baseball game was held at Yankee Stadium in support of the "Babe Ruth Foundation", which Ruth set up to help disadvantaged kids.
Some of the oldtimers and "current timers" at this game were Ty Cobb, Tris Speaker, Connie Mack, and a bunch of others.
Who knows, maybe some of the others in this book were also there, if, in fact, this is where these sigs might have come from.
Anyway, if anyone wants to further research this game/event, it could yield more clues.
ELAINE: I faked it.
JERRY: That whole thing, the whole production, it was all an act?
ELAINE: Not bad huh?
JERRY: What about the breathing, the panting, the moaning, the screaming?
ELAINE: Fake, fake, fake, fake.
Auction link
<< <i>I'm not sure if this link will work...
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=Zr8KAAAAIBAJ&sjid=sU0DAAAAIBAJ&pg=6717,2932421&dq=babe-ruth-foundation+1947
On September 27, 1947, a charity baseball game was held at Yankee Stadium in support of the "Babe Ruth Foundation", which Ruth set up to help disadvantaged kids.
Some of the oldtimers and "current timers" at this game were Ty Cobb, Tris Speaker, Connie Mack, and a bunch of others.
Who knows, maybe some of the others in this book were also there, if, in fact, this is where these sigs might have come from.
Anyway, if anyone wants to further research this game/event, it could yield more clues. >>
Of course, very possible, if not likely, a number of these players/managers were signing autographs.
Still would need an explanation of the McGraw though.
Perhaps seeing those other sigs will help with some clues. Not sure why this should be automatically thrown out as fake like many here have done, and yes it might still be fake, but why an automatic throwout? And yes, perhaps those 3 are original, and some or most were added or faked later? Intriguing to me.
Whatever it is, it doesn't appear to me to be some scammer coming on here with a fake item or pics of a real item, hoping to sucker in some members to PayPal him money and then vamoosing...but indeed, not to knock the OP at all, but that possibility can't be discounted yet - if that item is legit, the OP wouldn't take any low offer anyway...if the OP is willing to take a lowball offer, then he is a scammer.
<< <i>Lieb, Gehringer and Heilmann must've done some signings back in 1946 for this book....
Auction link >>
Other links:
http://www.historicauctions.com/search/showphotos/id/42949/imageid/36424/
http://www.historicauctions.com/search/showphotos/id/42949/imageid/36423/
It doesn't matter what anyone thinks about these autographs. It only matters what the authenticators at PSA/DNA, Spence, etc. think. If you can get this book to pass authentication by any of those, you've got yourself a possible five figure piece to sell, and if it were mine I'd sell it in a heartbeat.
The Leib, Gehringer and Heilmann are good.
The rest were all signed by one person...without seeing the item inperson, it;s hard to tell, but it looks like the forger might have used tracing paper (now there's something you younger guys might NEVER have seen, eh?) to make slight impressions of the original signatures on the left side of the book, then attempted to retrace the patterns (rather badly in some cases).
I'm pretty positive that the Appling, Mack, McGraw, and Ruth are 100% forgeries. Same pen, same size, same weight, those are no-brainers. Cobb "normally" signed Ty Cobb except on checks, which are widely available, and the signature in the book was probably copied from a check. And of course it would not have been possible for McGraw to sign the book unless the signing was held at a seance.
The Hornsby might be good, and Greenberg and Mulcahy at the top of the page, given the relationship to the Tigers are most likely good as well.
Problem is, the fakes ruin the whole piece.
<< <i>I've said before, and I'll say it again...
It doesn't matter what anyone thinks about these autographs. It only matters what the authenticators at PSA/DNA, Spence, etc. think. If you can get this book to pass authentication by any of those, you've got yourself a possible five figure piece to sell, and if it were mine I'd sell it in a heartbeat.
The Leib, Gehringer and Heilmann are good.
The rest were all signed by one person...without seeing the item inperson, it;s hard to tell, but it looks like the forger might have used tracing paper (now there's something you younger guys might NEVER have seen, eh?) to make slight impressions of the original signatures on the left side of the book, then attempted to retrace the patterns (rather badly in some cases).
I'm pretty positive that the Appling, Mack, McGraw, and Ruth are 100% forgeries. Same pen, same size, same weight, those are no-brainers. Cobb "normally" signed Ty Cobb except on checks, which are widely available, and the signature in the book was probably copied from a check. And of course it would not have been possible for McGraw to sign the book unless the signing was held at a seance.
The Hornsby might be good, and Greenberg and Mulcahy at the top of the page, given the relationship to the Tigers are most likely good as well.
Problem is, the fakes ruin the whole piece. >>
Interesting info - I was aware of the "tracing aspect" and it did occur to me that the Hornsby appeared to possibly be traced - especially the beginning of his name the R looks as though it could have been filled in a few times. As far as the pen type - I was aware of that also - Could the book owner have possibly handed the exact same pen to the signers at the show, hence the pen color and point size would be the same?
The "way" Cobb signed on checks versus other ways is interesting if that was always the case - that could kill it, but I'm sure you're not forgetting that Cobb played for the Tigers.
If the OP PM's anyone and offers to sell the thing, run like the wind and report it here.
Just to let you know the current owner plans to send it in to PSA/DNA here shortly to see if any of the sigs are authentic.
Brendan
After dealing with Federal Fraud cases in the auto industry on forged loan documents--- i spotted at least 3 sigs done in the same hand flow .... I think your friend has bad news coming back from PSA. And of course, you'll be out the grading fee to boot....
<< <i>Tell him to let his wife fill out the PSA/DNA submission form so they won't have to see the same handwriting on yet another page. >>
Thanks for the dickhead response bro. I guess it is time to have a MOD close this thread or delete it since Allen has spoken.
I would hate to see how many of your 6000 posts are as constructive as those you added to this thread.
<< <i>A few more pics.
Just to let you know the current owner plans to send it in to PSA/DNA here shortly to see if any of the sigs are authentic.
Brendan >>
Yea, the Joe DiMaggio at the top right I'm sure we agree is pathetic. I think what it is, is that the 3 "original" sigs already discussed are likely if not definitely genuine, as well as possibly some other sigs, and a number of fakes either traced or not. Regardless of the outcome, I still think it's a cool item and has made for an interesting conversation piece...at least for me anyway. LOL
There is still some value in the book. The Heilmann, Lieb and Gehringer could easily be used for matting or for cut cards like Knuckles makes, and Heilmann can fetch $150-200 on a good day alone.
I feel bad if someone paid for that and hope they didn't pay too much for it .