Since I am on a roll, I believe every coin can be reproduced..
InTheRaw
Posts: 57
I have always thought, especially lately, that every coin can be re-produced to the EXACT specifications as the original.
I often look at the rare coins in disbelief, wondering how this coin came to just come out of nowhere.
I have seen shows on TV , where a small time machinist, can produce an EXACT replica of a coin, both in engraving, and in propriiety.
No one on this planet could tell the difference, NO ONE, unless the machinist marked it so....
I guess you can tell I don't trust coins anymore....especially rare ones., which pop up out of nowhere? Hmmmmmmmm...
How could you disprove it? hmmmm?
I often look at the rare coins in disbelief, wondering how this coin came to just come out of nowhere.
I have seen shows on TV , where a small time machinist, can produce an EXACT replica of a coin, both in engraving, and in propriiety.
No one on this planet could tell the difference, NO ONE, unless the machinist marked it so....
I guess you can tell I don't trust coins anymore....especially rare ones., which pop up out of nowhere? Hmmmmmmmm...
How could you disprove it? hmmmm?
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And if they can fake a coin that well, they can surely fake an authentic looking plastic case to put it in.
Provenance is going to become more and more impotant for big coins.
Check out my current listings: https://ebay.com/sch/khunt/m.html?_ipg=200&_sop=12&_rdc=1
numbers mean nothing...
Mind you, some of that paranoia can be justified, but the answer to a lot of it is education. Faking can be done, even done to near perfection, sure, but only if it's worth the fakers' time and effort. In the budgetary range I usually deal in, fakes are not a huge worry, because it would not be worth a counterfeiter's time and effort to produce a perfect fake, when there are enough real coins on the market to satisfy demand and keep the prices down.
I think this is only a major concern on the far upper end of the spectrum, and the coins in that range get so much scrutiny that usually all but the very best fakes are eventually detected.
Is this issue a concern? Yes, most definitely.
Is it something that will make me abandon the hobby or lose sleep? Nah, probably not.
Collector since 1976. On the CU forums here since 2001.
Submit the coins yourself.
Provenance, or tracing the history of ownership of that coins back until it was slabbed is also a good way to assure yourself of authenticity.
Your assumption that a small time machinist could produce a coin that would fool everyone in the world...that is a flawed assumption in my opinion. Not many machinists specialize in what it takes to make a coin. Darn few, i'd say.
"Exact" is a very precise word and a very high standard. Especially when stacked up against a world of knowledge of history, production, dies, chemistry, metallurgy.
It's easy enough to have a profitable counterfeit whilst falling short of that "Exact replica".
Also, i'd say that some coins are easier to replicate than others.
This coin would probably be rather hard to duplicate with that original, complex surface:
You can control the counterfeit risk by controlling what sort of coin you purchase.
Rare raw morgans from eBay? That's the other end of the spectrum. Yikes.
The counterfeiter who could reproduce something like that almost deserves his ill-gotten gains.
Again, I agree with what adamlaneus said.
Collector since 1976. On the CU forums here since 2001.
Dump em, Dump em all ! Before its to late ......
I remember a little hen
I believe it was last year (?) that some very, very good Trade Dollar fakes were detected in China.
What makes this series especially susceptible to this is that this series was pretty much designed to get shipped to asian countries in the first place, so an authentic Trade Dollar originating in China is not unexpected. But this particular curse seems to be specific to that series.
I see this as an opportunity for a collector to educate themselves. The vast majority of counterfeits can be detected upon simple examination by an educated individual, and YOU, TOO, can pick up that education if you seek out the knowledge. With that education comes all sorts of side benefits relating to knowledge of that series; die pairings and such.
I'm just playing devils advocate here before i'm off to bed. Yeah, the whole Chinese Counterfeit thing scares me. I guess to be Politically Correct, I should admit that humans from any country have proven themselves capable of this sort of fraud.
It's just that I see it as an opportunity for education. Yes, I guess it does to some extent scare me away from some coins. And well it should. But it's healthy for YOU to find something positive within that negativity. Unfortunately, if you find no joy at all in coin collecting because of this, you may need an alternative focus.
Greed Coinboy, it gets em almost every time. Blinds the senses, and mists the mind. Greed and a little false faith is all it takes.
my early American coins & currency: -- http://yankeedoodlecoins.com/
mighty skillful.
Lewis
So far they have been immune to this problem.
<< <i>Yes, there are fake coins out there, and fake everything else. But fakes are sold to people who don't know what they're doing, by crooks who play on greed. Don't be one of the former, and don't deal with the latter. >>
So, you're saying that nobody that knows what they are doing ever bought a fake? ... and that no honest person ever unknowingly sold a fake? I'm sorry to burst your bubble, but the world is not that black and white. There are a LOT of long time collectors and dealers who have unwittingly paid good money for fakes, and many were from honest dealers who also had bought the fake and honestly sold it as authentic.
Hey, I like the good ole days as much as the next guy, but in reality, you just can't tell who's doing you right by the color of hat he's wearing.
The first coin which comes to mind is the 71-cc seated dollar with the minute die chip in the dentals and some of the MPL with die scratches.
<< <i>So, you're saying that nobody that knows what they are doing ever bought a fake? >>
No, what I wrote was "fakes are sold to people who don't know what they're doing" That happens very often, and I did not write "all fakes are sold to people who don't know what they're doing," did I?
<< <i> ... and that no honest person ever unknowingly sold a fake? >>
Where did you get that? Again, I wrote "[fakes are sold] by crooks who play on greed." I did not write all fakes, or anything about honest people.
Try not twisting my words around to fit your thoughts, OK?
my early American coins & currency: -- http://yankeedoodlecoins.com/
<< <i>I have seen shows on TV , where a small time machinist, can produce an EXACT replica of a coin, both in engraving, and in propriiety. >>
And I have a brother in law who thinks taking a brillo pad to a circulated Morgan will make it look brand spanking new!
There are many talented folks out there who are wonderful machinists but coin making goes far beyond simple machining and your comments tell me that you know very little about the coin making process or the examination/authentication of coins.
To me, a reasonably good fake of a Van Gogh would be impossible to detect but to an expert, it would stand out like a popcorn vender in church! For as many good machinists that exist, there are an equal number of folks that not only know what a specific rare coin is supposed to look like, they even know who owns them.
Any "new" rarity which shows up in the market does not simply get a once over as many of these coins are studied for months on end by more than a single individual before they are announced to the public.
I can think of my personal involvement in one such coin that spent 5 months being examined by top experts in the inductry before pronouncing it as an Authentic Prototype.
You are certainly entitled to your opinion and beliefs but the folks involved in this industry are very, very good at what they do.
The name is LEE!
<< <i>
<< <i>So, you're saying that nobody that knows what they are doing ever bought a fake? >>
No, what I wrote was "fakes are sold to people who don't know what they're doing" That happens very often, and I did not write "all fakes are sold to people who don't know what they're doing," did I?
<< <i> ... and that no honest person ever unknowingly sold a fake? >>
Where did you get that? Again, I wrote "[fakes are sold] by crooks who play on greed." I did not write all fakes, or anything about honest people.
Try not twisting my words around to fit your thoughts, OK? >>
All I was trying to point out was, there are many other different scenerios, not just crooks playing on greed and people not knowing what they're doing. I'm sorry I didn't word it better and didn't mean to twist your words around.
I'm not trying to be Chicken Little, but I think that the core of the collecting world - the small-time, average Joe collector and the thousands of new collectors - will lose confidence in the hobby as a whole and move on to something else, if this problem isn't dealt with. (and I realize that fakes have been around since the day after the first coin was made, but we're talking about unprecedented quality and volume flooding the market now.)
I'm just not sure what exactly can or will be done. Especially, if the big players all have the attitude that, either it's not a problem, or it only affects the uneducated and, well too bad for them, they should have educated themselves.
Once again, I apologize if I offended anyone. I'm just stating my point of view, as a small-time amateur collector for 25+ years.
I'll be quiet now.
for decades and decades.
PCGS has certified 95 of the contemporary counterfeit “Micro O” Morgan dollars over the years: 26 of the 1896-O; 31 1900-O; and 38 1902-O specimens.
<< <i>how quickly we forget micro O morgans and how they fooled everyone
for decades and decades.
PCGS has certified 95 of the contemporary counterfeit “Micro O” Morgan dollars over the years: 26 of the 1896-O; 31 1900-O; and 38 1902-O specimens.
You beat me to it!
I would think that the fake coins that have surely been encased in NGC and PCGS slabs is higher than anyone would like to think.
<< <i>If the newly produced item is "exact", "precise", "perfect" etc. etc. etc. I would then submit that it is no longer a fake but very real. In fact we are probably not far away from the real version of a Star Trek replicator. Technology is moving very fast. Tighten your seat belt. >>
I
It's called "rapid prototyping", and they have 3-d printers too. The technology is getting cheaper and better all the time. Some of my friends use this stuff to make model railroad parts, so its getting that cheap, and is rendering injection molding and machining metal molds obsolete.
But you don't really need to be so high tech. Anyone here ever play with making RTV rubber molds ? This stuff is real good and can pick up microscopic detail. So your die chips and denticals will be no problem. For less than $100, anyone could make some really good molds. And someone with skill could do mind boggling work.
Im with the OP, I have no doubt that there are skilled artists that could do work that is 99.99% perfect and will get by most pros.
my early American coins & currency: -- http://yankeedoodlecoins.com/
The name is LEE!
<< <i>What ever happened to the OP on this thread? >>
If he believes what he is saying, he probably took up stamp collecting.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Just think if he started on 1955 DDOs or some other coin.
BTW, the only reason he got caught was GREED! Tried to dump too many too fast!
It looks much better then the picture.
It is probably the one coin I want to
be buried with.
Camelot
produced
reduced
reproduced
seduced
deduced
maimed
mimed
mind
mentioned
counted
rolled
displayed
doctored
dipped
gassed
puttied
graded
regraded
displayed
slabbed
body bagged
toned
detoned
retoned
peac**ked
bulls eyed
rainbowed
holed
dinged
scrapped
scratched
hairlined
whizzed
scrubbed
buffed
thumbed
puttied
spent
saved
invested
banked
gambled
gifted
stolen
found
hidden
envied
lusted
lamented
hunted
found
sold
bought
traded
Camelot
<< <i>What ever happened to the OP on this thread? >>
No clue, I don't even remember him when he was posting.
<< <i>
<< <i>What ever happened to the OP on this thread? >>
If he believes what he is saying, he probably took up stamp collecting. >>
Recipient of the coveted "You Suck" award, April 2009 for cherrypicking a 1833 CBHD LM-5, and April 2022 for a 1835 LM-12, and again in Aug 2012 for picking off a 1952 FS-902.
<< <i>Were those micro "O" coins total fakes or just altered??? >>
total contemporary fakes. rather good ones too.
<< <i>Remember the "Omega" $20 Saints.... >>
Yes, these came to mind, I believe they were so well done they could only be recongnized because of the small omega symbol the counterfeiter added, he was so good he signed his work, haha and this was in the 70's I think
<< <i>
<< <i>Remember the "Omega" $20 Saints.... >>
Yes, these came to mind, I believe they were so well done they could only be recongnized because of the small omega symbol the counterfeiter added, he was so good he signed his work, haha and this was in the 70's I think >>
The omega counterfeits had tool marks and other defects that gave them away.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire