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Mint Destroying PM Returns? Possibly Worried About Counterfeits?
RichR
Posts: 3,983 ✭✭✭✭✭
Ok...with all the talk of returned coins being destroyed by the Mint instead of simply being repackaged and shipped back out...which on the face of it would make NO economic sense to do...something dawned on me as I was searching eBay last night...
There were A LOT of "replica" and "copy" versions of the $50 Buffalo gold available...and let's not even get started if anyone in China is also knocking out couterfeit platinum and gold fractionals [shudder]! I know that thought's crossed my mind when I've recently had to buy even a very recently sold out Mint product on the secondary market...such as 1/4 and 1/10 ounce Plat Uncs, for example.
Not let's say that you're completely unscrupulous and not afraid of committing a felony against a federal agency(!)...and let's say that you buy a couple of these $50 "Buffalo copies" and then swap them into sets you bought from the Mint...and then return them. Do you think the guys and gals at the distribution center are examining these coins very closely except to maybe check that all the holes are filled? Scary to say, but I'm willing to guess not!
And then, if the Mint were to simply recycle these returns back out to another [innocent] party...the so called "chain of evidence" would be broken in legal terms...and the original offender could claim total ignorance...since another set of hands had then touched the newly discovered fake coin. And there's also no way to track individual coins back to specific prior [returned] order numbers.
The only way possible to avoid this nightmare scenario would be to lay down a blanket policy that all returns would be closely examined upon return and then destroyed...thereby avoiding the daisy chain of the same coins coming and going and coming and going. And it would also eliminate even the most remote possibility of someone ever receiving a counterfeit coin directly from the Mint...could you imagine the uproar if that ever hit the front page of CW or NN!!!
And, yes, if this IS the new policy of the Mint...destroy upon return...then the already low 2008 plat and gold numbers are going to come in below ANYTHING anyone on this board has even contemplated!
Just consider this scenario for a couple of minutes.
Thoughts? Comments?
There were A LOT of "replica" and "copy" versions of the $50 Buffalo gold available...and let's not even get started if anyone in China is also knocking out couterfeit platinum and gold fractionals [shudder]! I know that thought's crossed my mind when I've recently had to buy even a very recently sold out Mint product on the secondary market...such as 1/4 and 1/10 ounce Plat Uncs, for example.
Not let's say that you're completely unscrupulous and not afraid of committing a felony against a federal agency(!)...and let's say that you buy a couple of these $50 "Buffalo copies" and then swap them into sets you bought from the Mint...and then return them. Do you think the guys and gals at the distribution center are examining these coins very closely except to maybe check that all the holes are filled? Scary to say, but I'm willing to guess not!
And then, if the Mint were to simply recycle these returns back out to another [innocent] party...the so called "chain of evidence" would be broken in legal terms...and the original offender could claim total ignorance...since another set of hands had then touched the newly discovered fake coin. And there's also no way to track individual coins back to specific prior [returned] order numbers.
The only way possible to avoid this nightmare scenario would be to lay down a blanket policy that all returns would be closely examined upon return and then destroyed...thereby avoiding the daisy chain of the same coins coming and going and coming and going. And it would also eliminate even the most remote possibility of someone ever receiving a counterfeit coin directly from the Mint...could you imagine the uproar if that ever hit the front page of CW or NN!!!
And, yes, if this IS the new policy of the Mint...destroy upon return...then the already low 2008 plat and gold numbers are going to come in below ANYTHING anyone on this board has even contemplated!
Just consider this scenario for a couple of minutes.
Thoughts? Comments?
0
Comments
Yes, I know I'll get a lot of crap from you people who purchase coins from the mint and expect MS/PF-70's, but I don't care in this point.
I think you make a great point here Rich.
Probably just some low level fulfilment center employee talking smack
They should be destroyed , both had the tennis elbow scar .
That defect made them undesirable to me...........................
Defective Bullion , not for me...........
Dan
<< <i>I returned 2 1/4 oz. plats.
They should be destroyed , both had the tennis elbow scar .
That defect made them undesirable to me...........................
Defective Bullion , not for me...........
Dan >>
Pcgs graded mine ms70
I know I was a bit thrown with the volume of "relica" 2008 Buffalos out there...right down to the W mintmark!
I also have a personal story to tell...I work in a high security building in Manhattan...and nothing bad ever happens. And then a few years ago, computers started disappearing overnight from desktops. You come in the following morning and only the power cables were left...and no one could figure out how this was happening. Security checked the camera tapes, the guys at the lobby desk were questioned, no unusual stuff going on at the loading docks. How were they getting this stuff out of the building sight unseen.
After a few weeks of this...and about 10 laptops...the mystery was solved.
A cleaning person was packing up the equipment and shipping it out of the building via FedEx...
So beware the mails!
JH
Proof Buffalo Registry Set
Capped Bust Quarters Registry Set
Proof Walking Liberty Halves Registry Set
Ok...that's also VERY scary.
Tell me about it...when I was in college, I paid part of my tuition by working in the housewares dept. of a large department store. Other people would just take stuff back and not bother to look inside boxes that had been opened and resealed. But not me! I took vindictive joy in uncovering scams.
So one day...a microwave oven comes back...and a guy with his wife and two kids want their money back...so I start to open the box and the guy starts getting very nasty and the wife is looking antsy...so now I know I'm onto something...and what do I find inside...? A microwave oven, inside a plastic garbage bag, blackened by fire/smoke and a metal sauce pot FUSED to the turntable! So I literally laughed in this guy's face and told him to get lost!
But guess what...the joke was on me...he went to the executive office of the store and they called down and told us to take it back! It was easier for them not to fight it out and simply eat the loss. A few years later, however, the store went out of business...the main reason...too many losses!
with dishonesty in things little or large imho.
<< <i>I don't believe platinum coins could ever be counterfeits. I don't think they could ever pass the weight test. >>
I think cool is right. There are plated platinum replicas on the market, but for a counterfeiter to purchase platinum blanks (expensive) and mint platinum coins (expensive) to sell a coin that in todays market is worth little more than melt, the counterfeiter would be taking a loss. No, for now they are content to counterfeit the classics. That's where the money is. I did read an article of counterfeited AGE 1/10 size that had tunstun cores though that were reported to be excellent quality.
Anyone care to wager on the odds of a counterfeit gold Buff sneaking past a Mint Distribiution Center employee? Because God knows...you get top quality service from their Call Center people!
Anyone...anyone? Bueller? Bueller?
<< <i>RichR, I have a buddy who works for Tiffany's in Manhattan and trust me, you would not believe what they take back under their return policy (especially if the customer complains loud enough) without verification. I don't put it past anybody to pull something like you describe.
JH >>
Same thing for Cabelas.
<< <i>Tell me about it...when I was in college, I paid part of my tuition by working in the housewares dept. of a large department store. Other people would just take stuff back and not bother to look inside boxes that had been opened and resealed. But not me! I took vindictive joy in uncovering scams. >>
When I was in college, I worked at a record store. (I'm sure more than a few of you remember "records.")
Anyway, it was a very popular scam for someone to buy a record, tape it onto cassette, and then carefully tape the shrinkwrap back up so they could exchange it for another title.
Because if it was returned opened you could only exchange it for another copy of the same title.
I got very skilled at identifying records that had been taped back shut.
60 years into this hobby and I'm still working on my Lincoln set!
I can only imagine the uproar if someone received a fake PM coin via the Mint thanks to a return that wasn't properly vetted!
IMHO the Mint's return policy is WAY too lax!
<< <i>I can only imagine the uproar if someone received a fake PM coin via the Mint thanks to a return that wasn't properly vetted!
IMHO the Mint's return policy is WAY too lax! >>
Really now.
And exactly what are you basing your opinion on? The mere fact that they accept returns?
You have absolutely no idea, beyond your wild imagination, of what happens or what steps are taken for product examination when a coin gets returned to the Distribution Center!
None. You even think the folks working there are minimum wage and again, you have absolutely no idea!
Tell you what, publish the story on someone receiving a Buffalo or Eagle with the word "copy" stamped into it and I'll paypal you $10!
The name is LEE!
May I ask why you assume that there will be any grossly obvious indication that you're dealing with a fake, like the word "copy" or "replica," for example?
There's ample evidence that coins are being counterfeited in mass quantities in China right now and that quite a few of them are being sold on eBay, among other venues. Just do a search on eBay for a $50 gold Buffalo and see what results come back...plenty of passable fakes...right down to the mintmark and legends...and many (most?) of them unstamped.
Now...if you assume that the Mint is carefully examining each and every return...good for you. But I don't buy it...and that's based on many years of evidence of slipshod Mint operations. Add in the pressure to quickly turn around many returns...and you're asking for a potential mess!
So before you go slamming me for my "wild imagination" just take a minute and open the paper today...plenty of "impossible" and "not plausible" things are happening in the financial world right now (Treasury bills yielding less than 0%, alledgedly safe cash funds losing value)...so attempted larceny by cheats/thieves should never be underestimated.
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
<< <i>All what talk about the mint destroying returns?
Probably just some low level fulfilment center employee talking smack
Sounds far fetched to me.
But, so did the billions they are using for bailouts lately.
Gardnerville, NV
=========================
Our Website -->Innovation, Native & Presidential Dollar Errors, Lincoln Cents and more
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I knew it would happen.
<< <i>Someone tell me..........how is it that we still do any trade with China? >>
They make good BackScratchers™ ... all in all, we're just another BRIC in the Wall !
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
<< <i><<Tell you what, publish the story on someone receiving a Buffalo or Eagle with the word "copy" stamped into it and I'll paypal you $10! >>
May I ask why you assume that there will be any grossly obvious indication that you're dealing with a fake, like the word "copy" or "replica," for example?
There's ample evidence that coins are being counterfeited in mass quantities in China right now and that quite a few of them are being sold on eBay, among other venues. Just do a search on eBay for a $50 gold Buffalo and see what results come back...plenty of passable fakes...right down to the mintmark and legends...and many (most?) of them unstamped.
Now...if you assume that the Mint is carefully examining each and every return...good for you. But I don't buy it...and that's based on many years of evidence of slipshod Mint operations. Add in the pressure to quickly turn around many returns...and you're asking for a potential mess!
So before you go slamming me for my "wild imagination" just take a minute and open the paper today...plenty of "impossible" and "not plausible" things are happening in the financial world right now (Treasury bills yielding less than 0%, alledgedly safe cash funds losing value)...so attempted larceny by cheats/thieves should never be underestimated. >>
You mean like this one? Or perhaps these?
I did your search and came up with 186 Items. Of those items all the copy coins are clearly marked so why would you think that there is "ample evidence that coins are being counterfeited in mass quantities in China right now" referring specifically to Gold Buffalos and Gold Eagles?
Your statement was "Do you think the guys and gals at the distribution center are examining these coins very closely except to maybe check that all the holes are filled? Scary to say, but I'm willing to guess not!" followed by "Anyone care to wager on the odds of a counterfeit gold Buff sneaking past a Mint Distribiution Center employee?"
I have no idea what the Fulfillment Center does to validate orders that are returned but since they are dealing with $1,000 coins, I would expect that some measures are taken to insure the authenticity and anything implying that they don't is purely imaginary and totally unfounded speculation.
I would expect that any collector out there that received a "counterfeit" or "copy" gold buffalo or gold eagle would be on the horn in a flash as something of that nature is news.
The name is LEE!
That would catch the fakes.
Concern over counterfeits might be one reason they are melting them, but It seems to me that the main reason would be just what I've described above. Most people return coins because they are defective in some way and the mint does want to get the reputation of selling defective products. It's not like they can re-manufacture or re-certify their products like a TV maker. So the best thing they can do is take the customer's word that something is wrong with the coin and melt it down.
...Ok...with all the talk of returned coins being destroyed by the Mint instead of simply being repackaged and shipped back out...
Some other posters seem to be assuming your statement is a fact. What is the source of your information?
And no, I do not believe they do this because they are fearful of counterfeits. I believe they are doing this because they are looking to actually reduce the volumes of garbage that they do not want to warehouse any more. Such as millions upon millions of 2001 half dollars. And some spoons too.
<< <i>I've always found the idea that returning an item purchased from the mint to be stupid.
Yes, I know I'll get a lot of crap from you people who purchase coins from the mint and expect MS/PF-70's, but I don't care in this point.
I think you make a great point here Rich. >>
I have returned 1 item in 30 years.
It was the Bad Eagle Silver Proof with a obvious flaw/discolored silver so I sent it bavk.
However, yes the make me a 70 game is a tad dull.
<< <i>Actually I'm glad to hear the mint is destroying returns. I bought 10 of the 20th anniversary silver eagle sets in 2006 and was one of the first ones to receive them. Much to my surprise every single set had milk spotted coins. Some were really bad and I posted pictures on this site. I returned all ten sets and was concerned that the mint might just turn around and send them to someone else. The same thing happened with a $50 gold buffalo. The coin had a bright red noise and forehead. I posted pictures on this site and I believe (but can't be sure) that coin world used my photo in a story about the defect. Again I wondered if the mint would just send the defective coin to someone else.
Concern over counterfeits might be one reason they are melting them, but It seems to me that the main reason would be just what I've described above. Most people return coins because they are defective in some way and the mint does want to get the reputation of selling defective products. It's not like they can re-manufacture or re-certify their products like a TV maker. So the best thing they can do is take the customer's word that something is wrong with the coin and melt it down. >>
This reply is exactly why I'm voiceing an opinion in this thread!
So many folks, myself included, only read the first post in the thread and then form an opinion without reading other pertinent information in the thread (such as facts).
The US Mint is not destroying or melting silver, gold and platinum coins simply because they are returned. They also DO NOT mint up coins as they are ordered bt mint mass quantities which are then packaged and stored for ultimate sale.
Returns do get inspected and put back into storage for eventual resale.
The name is LEE!
<<The US Mint is not destroying or melting silver, gold and platinum coins simply because they are returned. >>
This seems like a common sense thing to assume...which most of us always did...EXCEPT someone claimed last week to have spoken to a Mint rep who stated that all PM returns would be destroyed...regardless of damage...hence the confusion.
So who knows?
<< <i><<The US Mint is not destroying or melting silver, gold and platinum coins simply because they are returned. >>
This seems like a common sense thing to assume...which most of us always did...EXCEPT someone claimed last week to have spoken to a Mint rep who stated that all PM returns would be destroyed...regardless of damage...hence the confusion.
So who knows? >>
This will be true of those "Last Chance" items that have not sold come Dec 20th. My understanding is that the Last Chance items are non-returnable unless the product was "damaged" during shipping.
I suppose its totally possible that the mint CS rep "misunderstood" what was going on which is not surprising.
The question of "What happens to items that are returned to the US Mint" has been discussed endlessly on these boards and the reality is that "One Man's Junk is Aother Man's reasure" and I feel confident that this is the US Mints position unless the coins are totally whacked-out in which case they wouldn't be returned but sold as "errors"!
The name is LEE!