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When did the mint start stamping VDB under Lincoln?
Weg
Posts: 544
I still check pocket change and last night noticed this. There is no mention of it in the two coin books here.
OK my eyes have been better, but I'd still like to know.
OK my eyes have been better, but I'd still like to know.
Remember, I'm pullen for ya; we're all in this together.---Red Green---
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Perhaps RWB could fill us in on the specific details.
The name is LEE!
<< <i>I still check pocket change and last night noticed this. There is no mention of it in the two coin books here.
OK my eyes have been better, but I'd still like to know.
.....here is an article on the cent and the vdb scandle.
Text
As requested - A Short Version:
Addition (Apr-May 1909)
Mint director offered to permit Brenner to put his initials on the reverse. Instead, Brenner played stupid and put “Brenner” on the lower reverse at the rim. Director Leach asked him again, but Brenner didn’t respond right away. Director Leach had Barber make hubs and master die of reverse and add “V.D.B.” by hand to the master die. This is why the letters are slightly crooked and ill-formed – if they had come from reductions of a larger cast or model, they would have been uniform and correctly centered. A rush job, sloppily done.
Removal (Aug 1909)
Article in Washington Star after initial release of new cent criticized designer's initials as advertising. Other papers picked up the non-story. Sec of Treasury MacVeagh, who was new to job, was overwhelmed by press inquiries and thought the sky was falling. He ordered initials removed or replaced with “B.” Barber objected to “B” on the grounds that people would associate him with the Lincoln cent and he did not want that. Barber concocted a “snow job” about it taking weeks to remove the “VDB” and replace with “B,” but only a couple of days to just remove “VDB.” MacVeagh bought the lie and the initials were removed from the working hub. All working dies came from this altered hub, which was replaced with a new hub of slightly lower relief in October 1909.
Restoration (Sept 1917 for CY 1918?)
Barber kicked the bucket in February 1917 and Morgan was appointed engraver in March. Also, Raymond T. Baker was appointed director in March. Baker, as part of cleaning up the mess left by von Engelken’s short but confused tenure, had the half dollar mint mark moved to the reverse. He also supervised final approval and production of MacNeil’s Standing Liberty quarter, now with chain mail covering in honor of the war. We can only surmise that Baker recognized the slight done Brenner by removing his initials and had them restored in the most inconspicuous but commonly used location – truncation of the neck. (During the war, Brenner tried several times to get a job at the Mint, but was either turned down or ignored. At some point, he might have reminded Baker of the initials. I’ve looked for, but not found documentary evidence. But it is consistent with Baker’s other actions.)
Comment
Mint and Treasury folks did not like Brenner’s portrait. Had Roosevelt not personally approved it, it is likely a much more tightly cropped version would have been used. The Fraser 1911 electroshells of Lincoln were made at the suggestion of Director Roberts who thought it possible to get Congress to agree to replace the Brenner portrait of Lincoln’s coat with one of Lincoln’s head. Fraser tried again in 1952 and almost succeeded – pattern were actually struck. (See Judd or my Coin World article on the 1952 Lincoln cent.)
[Source: Renaissance of American Coinage 1909-1915 plus various documents from NARA record group 104 – U.S. Mint.]
Barber kicked the bucket in February 1917 and Morgan was appointed engraver in March. Also, Raymond T. Baker was appointed director in March. Baker, as part of cleaning up the mess left by von Engelken’s short but confused tenure, had the half dollar mint mark moved to the reverse. He also supervised final approval and production of MacNeil’s Standing Liberty quarter, now with chain mail covering in honor of the war. We can only surmise that Baker recognized the slight done Brenner by removing his initials and had them restored in the most inconspicuous but commonly used location – truncation of the neck. (During the war, Brenner tried several times to get a job at the Mint, but was either turned down or ignored. At some point, he might have reminded Baker of the initials. I’ve looked for, but not found documentary evidence. But it is consistent with Baker’s other actions.)>>
Roger, does this mean 1918 comes both ways? That is something I never knew, never considered and never looked for.
Maybe we should keep an eye out for any that don't.
No. The 1918 hubs would have been made in September or early October 1917. Working dies would be produced into December for shipment to branch mints so production could begin in January. As far as I know or have read, no missing VDB cents are known for 1918 where the omission was clearly intentional.
<< <i> Perhaps RWB could fill us in on the specific details.
As requested - A Short Version: >>
Short but sweet. Thanks.
I'm not up on my "How the Lincoln Cent began" politics.
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I think I see a trace of the VDB but cant say for sure since I dont own the one shown.
I've asked this before but didnt get an answer and I know very little about Lincolns.
1989 "No VDB" Lincoln
You wouldn't believe how long it took to get him to sit still for this.
I never realized how jealous Barber was. Maybe jealous isn't the right word? Maybe upset that he didn't get the design?
Barber didn’t care about the cent because Leach had promised him the design of the five-cent nickel. Barber began his nickel design experiments in 1909. Not long after release of the cent, there were rumors that a Washington nickel would soon be released, and banks began writing the mint asking to order coins. Barber’s “Washington nickel” didn’t get adopted. A major part of the failure was that Director Leach, who thought Barber was the world’s best artist, left the mint in July 1909. Director A. Piatt Andrew took over in November 1909 and concentrated on reforming mint accounting procedures, not issuing new designs.
The “tone” of Barber’s letters discussing the Lincoln cent suggest to me that he had a genuine dislike for Brenner. This did not seem to be artistic, but personal. It seemed to be mutual. Brenner was a pushy, non-stop self-promoter, and seemed to expect everyone to acknowledge his mastery of medal design – it truth, he was an above average medalist, but no more. The only thing separating him from Paul Manship, Anthony de Francisci and other above average medalists was that he did this full-time, rarely designing anything else. The very finest American medalists, Adolph Weinman, James Fraser, Laura Fraser, Hermon MacNeil, were also top tier sculptors who produced primarily sculpture and only a few medals.
oops
Brenner got a Thousand Dollars for his work on the cent. They wouldn't even give him one of the prototype stampings.
I have learned more about the Lincoln cent in this thread than from any other source.
rbf, The first I was using the Red Book (58th 2005) which did have some info about the 1909, and now realize I need to read more in the back of.
Wish I still had my Red books from the 60s. The second was Coinworlds guide, of which I'll not give an opinion.
What caught my eye on that particular cent was the rim, something just looked different. Using the 10X I found the second T of Trust in the rim.
While looking at the entire coin is when I noticed the VDB for the first time. It truely is in an inconspicuous location which frequently appears to be weak.