Should we, as collectors, even care whether a dealer cannot grade or is not the greatest grader?
Longacre
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I have been reading with interest the thread about dealers' ability to grade. There are some valid points in that thread, and some people are taking some cheap shots at the dealers.
However, this got me wondering. Should we, as collectors, even care whether our dealer can grade or not, or if he is not the greatest grader in the world? As I have stated in the past, I think that the coin dealers hold an important place in our society and economy. Personally, however, it is much, much more important to me that my preferred doctor know how to diagnose a medical condition than it is for my preferred coin dealer to know how to grade.
Given the pervasiveness of TPG coins, and the fact that (honestly), they probably get the grade "correct" about 95% of the time, should we even care whether a dealer can grade or not? I would venture to say that the majority of coins of significant value (let's use $1,000 as an example) are currently encapsulated for the most part. With the pricing guides, active market, and TPG grading available to us, I don't think there is a need to really rely on our dealers for grading expertise. Do you have any comments?
However, this got me wondering. Should we, as collectors, even care whether our dealer can grade or not, or if he is not the greatest grader in the world? As I have stated in the past, I think that the coin dealers hold an important place in our society and economy. Personally, however, it is much, much more important to me that my preferred doctor know how to diagnose a medical condition than it is for my preferred coin dealer to know how to grade.
Given the pervasiveness of TPG coins, and the fact that (honestly), they probably get the grade "correct" about 95% of the time, should we even care whether a dealer can grade or not? I would venture to say that the majority of coins of significant value (let's use $1,000 as an example) are currently encapsulated for the most part. With the pricing guides, active market, and TPG grading available to us, I don't think there is a need to really rely on our dealers for grading expertise. Do you have any comments?
Always took candy from strangers
Didn't wanna get me no trade
Never want to be like papa
Working for the boss every night and day
--"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)
Didn't wanna get me no trade
Never want to be like papa
Working for the boss every night and day
--"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)
0
Comments
However, I consider myself extremely competent with Canadian coins. I have no problem spending $1000 on a raw coin from a dealer knowing that it will upgrade at ICCS. At worst, it grades the same, most often gets one or two upgrades. My track record over the years of doing this is extremely good.
I mention this because it pertains to the OP's question.
If you know what you're doing, who cares if the dealer knows how to grade or not. You're buying the coin not the plastic, or the dealer's 'grade'.
"“Those who sacrifice liberty for security/safety deserve neither.“(Benjamin Franklin)
"I only golf on days that end in 'Y'" (DE59)
To think that the majority of "certifiable" coins have been graded is very close minded. Coins have been collected in the United States seriously since the mid 1800's and many of those collection have not seen our market place in many decades. Even non-collecting public saved unusual coins.
Whether a coin enters our market place via a small coin shop or through a major auction house there are many coins out there. Either unknown or forgotten.
As a little exercise, look at the Red Book's mintage listings and then compare that with the pop reports of PCGS and NGC.
Perhaps with the current economic conditions some of the "lost" collections will come to light.
njcc
Also, as I've said in other threads, the technical grade is not the only thing one should consider...far from it. You should also consider originality, surface quality, color, relative rarity, how the coin compares to others within the series, availability of a better coin, etc., etc., etc. A dealer who may not be the best grader, can still give you a useful opinion and some contextual information about a coin to help you answer these questions.
<< <i>To be honest, I have a lot to learn with grading US coins.
However, I consider myself extremely competent with Canadian coins. I have no problem spending $1000 on a raw coin from a dealer knowing that it will upgrade at ICCS. >>
If you can do this at ICCS why are you concerned with grading US coins? The principles are the same wouldn't you say?
Ken
<< <i>
<< <i>To be honest, I have a lot to learn with grading US coins.
However, I consider myself extremely competent with Canadian coins. I have no problem spending $1000 on a raw coin from a dealer knowing that it will upgrade at ICCS. >>
If you can do this at ICCS why are you concerned with grading US coins? The principles are the same wouldn't you say?
Ken >>
Hi Ken;
Actually, the principles are far apart (believe it or not).
My success rate with Canadian coins is outstanding; my success rate with US coins is subpar at best.
The reasons for this are twofold:
1) Through the years, I know exactly what ICCS is looking for (especially in certain series and certain grades). I have yet to learn this with the US companies (experience is the answer, I guess). Believe me, there is a DIFFERENCE.
2) I believe I started sending coins to the US companies just when they did an 'about turn' with their grading standards and tightened them up. This caught me off guard. Maybe this is just 'sour grapes' on my part.
But I'm at a loss to explain how I can be so successful at Canadian material and just so-so with US.
"“Those who sacrifice liberty for security/safety deserve neither.“(Benjamin Franklin)
"I only golf on days that end in 'Y'" (DE59)
<< <i>I am more concerned with my dealer's ability to find cool coins at a good price, than with their ability to grade >>
All in all, I think this is the most important thing.
Having said that, I think it is helpful to know something about how a given dealer grades. Obviously, you have to know something about grading yourself for it to make any difference, or to even be able to know. I know one dealer who, when he says that a coin is very high-end for its grade, I know I can believe him. That is a helpful bit of knowledge. I know another dealer who is very, very strict on circulated 19th century silver type, to the point of significantly undergrading it and selling it for a bit less than it is really worth. That is also useful knowledge. I know yet another dealer who either cannot or does not care to tell the difference between a gem and a common unc in a number of more recent series (1930's forward). This has been a great source of very choice coins in series I like for small fractions of their real value.
If a dealer cannot grade coins with reasonable accuracy, then what kinds of coins will he likely have in his inventory? Coins that are not nice for their grades---and I'm not interested in those.
If a dealer cannot grade, should I trust his (her) opinion regarding a raw coin that I might want to send into PCGS for grading or crossover from NGC? I think that, for many kinds of classic coins, a second opinion is helpful in this regard (but only if it an informed one).
If a dealer cannot grade, should I place any faith in his judgment regarding surface originality, artificial toning/coloring, or authenticity? NO
If a dealer cannot grade, I certainly do not want him representing me at an auction.
For a transaction to be satisfactory both parties have to be satisfied. As the buyer or seller I am only satisfied if my estimation of grade matches the price on the coin. The dealer has to feel the same way of course or we won't reach an agreement. So while I don't really care whether the dealer can grade or not from the point of view that I'm not looking to the dealer for advice. I guess I do care that the dealer be able grade from the point of view that I'd like to be able to buy coins I'm looking for at a reasonable price.
This is where the TPG's disinterested opinion is most valuable.
Bob
And just as important, what do plan to be buying from the dealer? Morgan dollars or Canadian blacksmith coppers? Small differences in grade matter more in one of those series than the other (at present, at least.)
On another comment in this thread: As for how many coins are slabbed, look at pop reports for the S-VDB. A coin which gets slabbed in all grades, and for which authentication is considered mandatory (with good reason). And yet, even assuming no resubmissions, and a generous ANACS/ICG/et al showing, it's perhaps just 10% at best of the surviving population that is slabbed!
Ed. S.
(EJS)
For example, if you want him to look at auction lots on your behalf, he damned well better know how to grade. And if you want him to sell you bargains, it would better if he didn't have a clue how to grade.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
I exclude the MS grades from my above statement. I can't tell the difference between a MS65 and MS66. That's why I collect mid-grade circs and have fun.
Accurate grading is essential for the dealer when selling. Accurate grading is vital for the dealer when buying. The gap between the grading when buying vs. selling is the dishonesty factor. In many many cases it's entirely too large. As a collector I do not care, but when 'the niece' walks in with the coins that she inherited things look quite different. Ethical people protect the "rights", i.e., the customary fair treatment of people in a civil society, at that point. If you cannot grade accurately, or purposefully apply different standards, how can you be an ethical dealer? Keep in mind that the onus is on the person presumed to have more skill in the area; usually that means the dealer.
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I think it is interesting bringing Canadian into the discussion. My experience is that quality and original Canadian coins are much more difficult to obtain than most US coin series. I have found the grading a real challenge and Canadian coins seem to be held to a higher standard. I think part of the problem is that the George VI Dollars starting in 1946 through 1952 often have semi PL fields and bag marks look worse than they really are. This is even a problem with the quarters as well.
With George V, some quarters and halfs between 1911 and 1936 are often not fully struck up and the pearls in the crown were incomplete as struck. I think the grading is inconsistent and lustre may not always be given the consideration over the strike in certain grades.
These are just two examples and there are similar issues with Edward VII coinage in terms of the striking characteristics
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
Hence, more help is preferable if it doesn't cost an arm and a leg.
roadrunner
Find the cool coins, and let me decide wheter to pay a premium or not. Opinions optional,but encouraged.That's the ticket!!
Only if the dealer is grossly over stating the condition of the coin
I believe this part of your supposition is incorrect. I suggest you get out more often or join a coin club, because there are still a large number of dealers and collectors who don't believe in slabs.
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
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<< <i>" I would venture to say that the majority of coins of significant value (let's use $1,000 as an example) are currently encapsulated for the most part."
I believe this part of your supposition is incorrect. I suggest you get out more often or join a coin club, because there are still a large number of dealers and collectors who don't believe in slabs. >>
I also disagree with this supposition. I have asked a number of old-time dealers about this, and the answer that I always got was that most are still raw. EACers don't care for slabs, so most nice half cents and large cents are currently unslabbed. A check of Bowers' Whitman Red Book series titles indicates that he thinks that most coins >$1K are still raw.
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