"NGC would have to revamp their slab numbering system in order to do this."
On a number of occasions, NGC has denied a coin I tried to add. They then contacted the "owner", and, if he released it, it was then added to my registry.
On the issue of "educating" yourself to be aware of all counterfeits, I believe it would be impossible unless you devoted your life to it. Some of us are actual collectors, who consider collecting a hobby, not their lifes work. I have collected Large Cents for many years, and could PROBABLY spot a fake, but you could easily fool me with a quality counterfeit Bust coin, or a Trade Dollar. Not speaking to anyone in particular, but I think the Big Ego's are what the counterfeiters will eventually prey on. The guys who believe they can't be fooled. It's happening currently with a lot of the "Color" coins. There are "Super Toned" Morgan dollars available everywhere these days. Oddly enough, they were near non-existant not so many years ago. Yeah, keep believing you can't be fooled, and before long, you WILL have a counterfeit in your collection. On the bright side, maybe it will be RARE "Color" coin! I expect to suffer serious attacks for this post, but come on guys, nobody is perfect, even the TPG's get things wrong at times, and they actually ARE Experts!
Chinese manufacturers have the same attitude about anything and everything they produce: it is the buyer’s responsibility to determine authenticity, safety and content.
In my simplistic opinion, nothing that is made in China can be trusted to be what it is claimed to be.
(Fed your dog Chinese pet food additives lately? Brushed you teeth with pesticide-laced toothpaste? Fed the baby some of the nice, nutritious Chinese baby formula with melamine added? Bought a fake Gucci handbag? How about some nice fake Trade dollars, or maybe Craftsman tools that shatter when you use them? Bought some pirated DVDs lately? The list is nearly endless. The only solutions are for importing countries to insist on independent testing of all imports from China – a Chinese expense – and for the Chinese Communist government to do a 180-degree and prohibit the fraud it now condones. China, Inc. is the largest criminal enterprise in the world.)
I started collecting in the 1960's, when 20th-century series collecting was at its height, and the doomsday message then was that altering and counterfeiting of keys (especially 1909-S VDB and 1914-D cents, 1916-D dimes, even 1950-D nickels) would "destroy the hobby." For some coins, the number of fakes was thought to exceed the number of legitimate coins. This was well before the time of grading services and the Internet, and most collectors could never be 100% sure that their expensive key coins were real.
Somehow the hobby managed to survive, and I expect it will continue to do so.
Enough with the doom and gloom about the demise of the hobby. As fake slabs are developed the TPGs with develop better fraud prevention and detection, and develop better slabs that are harder to fake. It is an arms race of sorts to be sure, but I, for one, don't think that China will win.
If you do not think that you can detect a fake coin, stop buying stuff off ebay and work with a reputable dealer who can.
The only solutions are for importing countries to insist on independent testing of all imports from China – a Chinese expense – and for the Chinese Communist government to do a 180-degree and prohibit the fraud it now condones.
Oddly enough, until about ten or fifteen years ago the Chinese used to staff their export-oriented factories with Party Commies for the purposes of quality assurance. Their positions were eliminated upon the insistence of Chinese capitalists that "the market" and their Western customers would be enough to keep them on the straight and narrow.
Salute the automobile: The greatest anti-pollution device in human history! (Just think of city streets clogged with a hundred thousand horses each generating 15 lbs of manure every day...)
I'm with Weiss-- I think this is going to be one hell of a death knell for the hobby. It doesn't matter if I become a Jedi and am never fooled by a counterfeit coin-- the 400,000 collectors that WERE ripped off are going to leave collecting in droves.
"I'll split the atom! I am the fifth dimension! I am the eighth wonder of the world!" -Gef the talking mongoose.
<< <i>Now we have a new fun hobby-counterfeit detection. Can't you picture yourself with your adoring children sitting around the kitchen table with their digital scales, calipers, atomic absorption spectrometers, stereoscopic microscope, specific gravity baths and a thousand dollar library of books learning how to detect fakes. Sounds fun. >>
I lol'd.
"I'll split the atom! I am the fifth dimension! I am the eighth wonder of the world!" -Gef the talking mongoose.
<< <i>I'm with Weiss-- I think this is going to be one hell of a death knell for the hobby. It doesn't matter if I become a Jedi and am never fooled by a counterfeit coin-- the 400,000 collectors that WERE ripped off are going to leave collecting in droves. >>
I totally disagree as those folks that take up coin collecting will simply learn from their mistakes as we all have. Sure, some may leave but then my take on it is that they probably would have left anyway.
Collectors come and colectors go and thats just the way things are.
I don't really think that these fakes coming from China are really going to impact a whole lot except for those that just do not seem to understand that there are counterfeits out there and the only way to really protect yourself is to get some education on what it is you are collecting. If its Morgans, then learn about Morgans. If its busties then learn about busties. Once you've looked at enough of them, then the fakes should be quite obvious.
If you're uncomfortable buying from eBay, then blow it off and only buy from reputable dealers that will stand behind their product.
Its as simple as that.
I decided to change calling the bathroom the John and renamed it the Jim. I feel so much better saying I went to the Jim this morning.
<< <i>I'm afraid it's the end of the hobby. The money doesn't bother me as much as it's identity theft in a very real sense: I've been a coin collector since I was 4, and I turn 40 next year. Before I was married, before I developed my career, before high school or college, before I could vote or drive, I collected coins and thought of myself as a coin collector.
Now some greedy, hateful, criminal that I've never met and will never meet has ripped that part of my identity out. Three years, maybe five years from now I fully expect I will no longer identify myself as a coin collector. And we have virtually no recourse. Our government can't or won't stop it, and their government appears to be aiding them.
And it's not just my identity--it's our collective identity as Americans and our shared history as western civilization. What history is there in a piece of worthless metal forged in a nameless factory in Shanghai last month?
They're stealing our identity as coin collectors, as Americans. I hate them. >>
Oh please, stop with the BOO HOO HOO doom and gloom. Counterfeiting is always balanced by the free market. If people leave the hobby because of it, the number of counterfeiters will be affected as well. The counterfeiters know full well if they produce a perfect coin, it destroys their own market.
This topic comes up every now and then, there's always the group that circles the wagons and say "educate yourself and you'll be alright." That imo is true at micro, but also a bit short sighted in the grand scheme of things.
Failing to realize the effect consumer confidence has on the hobby.
Reflecting back at the counterfeiting of thirty, forty years ago is not a good indicator either. This is a different era, international trade is a mouse click away.
Ebay is just absolutely flooded with the fakes mentioned. And it's not like people aren't buying them. These "replica" coins that don't have the replica stamp on them when buyers receive are being purchased by the thousands. Just look at the feedback numbers these chinese sellers have.
Speaking personally, there's two stages to any purchase. The buying and the selling. Most collectors including myself sell at some point. It's this second stage that concerns me the most.
I may not be able to spot a counterfeit, but there's plenty of professionals or even the us mint that i can purchase from and know it's legitimate. However, when it comes to that second stage, and it's time for me to liquidate, who am I? A small collector with an ebay ID. Not good if consumer confidence is damaged. The two way street becomes buy and hold. Or even take a beating and fold.
<< <i> Counterfeiting is always balanced by the free market. If people leave the hobby because of it, the number of counterfeiters will be affected as well. The counterfeiters know full well if they produce a perfect coin, it destroys their own market. >>
Free market? Balance? Where the hell are you living that you haven't caught on that the free market is not free and the Chinese government doesn't give a rat's rearend about balance? As long as the local and fed gov can press taxes out of counterfeit operations they'll let them crank them out and pollute at will.
Coinborg: Your distinctive coins will be added to my collection. BS&T : kryptonitecomics, PCcoins (2x), Spoon (7x), Coppercolor, Preussen (2x), Filamcoins, agentjim007, CB2597, DCW, 1960NYGiants Ebay: + <waitin'> NEG: Chameleoncoins NonBST/Ebay: Rick's Coins WTB: Toners, BU Darkside, Sovs & 20 Mark, LMU/SMU Gold.
<< <i>As fake slabs are developed the TPGs with develop better fraud prevention and detection, and develop better slabs that are harder to fake. It is an arms race of sorts to be sure, but I, for one, don't think that China will win. >>
The problem with this "arms race" is that the grading services will have to spend more money on R&D which they will try to recover by charging higher prices to the customer.
<< <i>Shouldnt be alarmed if you learned how to detect counterfeits. The ANA has classes taught by autheticators at the grading services each year during the summer seminar and there are books that show in pictures the very obvious ones and altered coins.
Cameron Kiefer >>
Most collectors can barely grade. Authentication takes ten times the dedication and time to learn that learning to grade takes. Reading a book and watching the video will only help against the crude fakes and some of the mid-level fakes if the student is attentive. Against, the high quality fakes, and the state of the art die-struck fakes, even many dealers will have trouble and coins are their business.
If the answer is for collectors becoming authenticators, it is time to say goodbye to 90% to 99% of the collector base. Most don't have the time, or won't take the time to learn to authenticate. Count me in that group and I have been in the hobby for decades.
<< <i>As fake slabs are developed the TPGs with develop better fraud prevention and detection, and develop better slabs that are harder to fake. >>
Maybe so, but a proliferation of slab types will only lead to marketplace confusion. And there's no need for counterfeiters to duplicate the newest slabs, when they can go back and copy the older, simpler versions more easily.
The people who need to worry about this are the TPGs. If the credibility added to coins by a slab is damaged enough, the industry might find itself redundant.
Good deals with: goldman86 mkman123 Wingsrule wondercoin segoja Tccuga OKCC LindeDad and others.
<< <i>ICG reported some fake platinums a couple years ago >>
here in Phoenix, you can buy all the fake gold, silver and platinum eagles you want; all slabbed in MS/PF 69 and 70 fake PCGS holders. A guy at a local flea market here sets up often, and has a ton of them. they look quite good! good enough to fool the newbie, most average collectors and certainly investors.
Reflecting back at the counterfeiting of thirty, forty years ago is not a good indicator either. This is a different era, international trade is a mouse click away.
So is information, which was *not* easily available 40 years ago. Buying a 1909-S VDB cent in the 1960s meant either finding a dealer you could totally trust, or becoming an expert authenticator yourself. The same consideration applied to grading. Finding a decent price was also a problem, there was no eBay back then to facilitate price comparisons when buying or selling. Counterfeit, altered and cleaned/retoned coins were all over the place to trap the unwary, and yet the hobby continued to survive and thrive.
I *much* prefer today's coin market, with 24/7 access to knowledgeable collectors on boards like this, to the market of the 1960s when the typical collector's universe consisted of dealers and other local collectors, weekly coin newspapers and annual price guides.
Even scarier--I paid $800 for a seminar in detection only to find out the presenter was a imposter!!
Seriously, anyone who doesn't believe the fakes will have a chilling effect on the coin marketplace, hence the hobby, is in denial. Fans, serious and casual, still attend baseball games and cheer home run records, but none can escape the cloud of doubt that hangs over all outstanding athletic accomplishment. The last thing any of us need in today's environment is more doubt and uncertainty. Someone earlier in the thread made the point that if you can spot the fake, by definition it isn't a good one.
Chuck
Markets (governments) can remain irrational longer than an investor can remain solvent.
<< <i>ICG reported some fake platinums a couple years ago >>
here in Phoenix, you can buy all the fake gold, silver and platinum eagles you want; all slabbed in MS/PF 69 and 70 fake PCGS holders. A guy at a local flea market here sets up often, and has a ton of them. they look quite good! good enough to fool the newbie, most average collectors and certainly investors. >>
Does he claim they're real? It's one thing to sell that stuff from China, but from the US, it's a trip to the poky for you.
"I'll split the atom! I am the fifth dimension! I am the eighth wonder of the world!" -Gef the talking mongoose.
<< <i>ICG reported some fake platinums a couple years ago >>
here in Phoenix, you can buy all the fake gold, silver and platinum eagles you want; all slabbed in MS/PF 69 and 70 fake PCGS holders. A guy at a local flea market here sets up often, and has a ton of them. they look quite good! good enough to fool the newbie, most average collectors and certainly investors. >>
Please forward specific information to David Hall or Don Willis as I'm sure that PCGS would love to prosecute this guy to the fullest extent of the law. Better yet, provide his name and the flea market so that this fellow can be tracked down.
I decided to change calling the bathroom the John and renamed it the Jim. I feel so much better saying I went to the Jim this morning.
<< <i>Shouldnt be alarmed if you learned how to detect counterfeits. The ANA has classes taught by autheticators at the grading services each year during the summer seminar and there are books that show in pictures the very obvious ones and altered coins.
Cameron Kiefer >>
Most collectors can barely grade. Authentication takes ten times the dedication and time to learn that learning to grade takes. Reading a book and watching the video will only help against the crude fakes and some of the mid-level fakes if the student is attentive. Against, the high quality fakes, and the state of the art die-struck fakes, even many dealers will have trouble and coins are their business.
If the answer is for collectors becoming authenticators, it is time to say goodbye to 90% to 99% of the collector base. Most don't have the time, or won't take the time to learn to authenticate. Count me in that group and I have been in the hobby for decades. >>
This is how I feel, I have been in the hobby for decades but I'm still no where near an expert authenticator. I was really glad to see the TPG come along, they were in my opinion the best thing that happened to the hobby for a long time. Now we have to authenticate the slab.It is just taking a lot of the fun out of coin collecting for me. I know there are some of you who say learn what you are doing or get another hobby but I have always been attracted to coins but I don't want to make it my life's work.
<< <i> Counterfeiting is always balanced by the free market. If people leave the hobby because of it, the number of counterfeiters will be affected as well. The counterfeiters know full well if they produce a perfect coin, it destroys their own market. >>
Free market? Balance? Where the hell are you living that you haven't caught on that the free market is not free and the Chinese government doesn't give a rat's rearend about balance? As long as the local and fed gov can press taxes out of counterfeit operations they'll let them crank them out and pollute at will. >>
Thanks for completely missing my point with that rant. Let the Chinese produce trillions of them. Who cares? It will not fool anyone but the inexperienced. And next time you attack me, have the courage to show your real ID and not hide behind an alt id.
Attack them is best way to defend ourself. Should all colletors (500.000 pelple?) sign a letter to our President, their president Mr HU. We will find out what will happen after that. Do not let them make us sick! Hope some one will come up with a web site with all our collectors sign to send it to both presidents.
<< <i>I wonder how much of this material is now coming into the US market via flea markets, etc.? >>
it has to be quite bit judging by the amount of other rip off stuff they sell from china. purses, polo shirts, etc...
you want to see how bad it is for other hobbies? check out mccoy pottery. these people have conventions and so many proud collectors are told their stuff is fake.
Wow. Lots of Chicken Littles here. If you believe the hobby will die from counterfeiting why would you care? You probably believe global warming will wipe us out soon anyway.
here in Phoenix, you can buy all the fake gold, silver and platinum eagles you want; all slabbed in MS/PF 69 and 70 fake PCGS holders. A guy at a local flea market here sets up often, and has a ton of them. they look quite good! good enough to fool the newbie, most average collectors and certainly investors.
If you know this and did not do anything, like alert the flea market manager, then who's fault is it. If you see counterfeits offered anywhere you should speak up. Not only to the seller but to the venue he is using, be it a coin show, an antique mall kiosk, flea market, or eBay.
They should be made to fell queasy for knowingly offering fakes. They may not go away, but at least they might rethink their product line.
Anyone see the latest issue of Coin World...essentially a 50% failure rate to detect "higher quality" counterfeits at a major bourse...and the detection failure rate would have likely been higher if the "grapevine" didn't kick in and dealers quickly started alerting each other that something was afoot.
The "seller" was a frequent CW contributor...and said that several of the dealers were shocked at the quality...after offering to purchase...while others "felt" something might be wrong and declined...but couldn't put their finger on what exactly was wrong.
The results did not inspire confidence in purchasing non-slabbed merchandise...and not only the rare stuff...now good quality common date stuff is appearing!
<< <i>Anyone see the latest issue of Coin World...essentially a 50% failure rate to detect "higher quality" counterfeits at a major bourse...and the detection failure rate would have likely been higher if the "grapevine" didn't kick in and dealers quickly started alerting each other that something was afoot.
The "seller" was a frequent CW contributor...and said that several of the dealers were shocked at the quality...after offering to purchase...while others "felt" something might be wrong and declined...but couldn't put their finger on what exactly was wrong.
The results did not inspire confidence in purchasing non-slabbed merchandise...and not only the rare stuff...now good quality common date stuff is appearing! >>
Looks like the Chicken Little's may be right this time. If 50% of dealers can't spot the fakes, 99.5% of Ebay buyers won't be able to either. Of the dealers that declined offers on the fakes, a good many probably got word from their buddies that someone was testing them by offering fakes around the show, not because they were able to tell the difference. Put the good fakes in a good fake slab and yikes. Even low cost coins are subject to being faked because there is still profit to be made.
It is disturbing news and the coin folks seem unable to counter the onslaught. The main difference this time is that the makers are overseas so the U. S. authorities can't get to them to turn off the spigot. I don't know how others feel, but these kind of reports get me closer to a coin buying halt, with an exception of direct purchases from the U. S. mint.
Being that I am what most would consider a new or not-as-knowledgeable collector I think I am good example of how the general collecting public would or would not be able to notice these.
I purchased one of the fake coins from a dealer in China (paid 10 cents + shipping) and in hand without a 10x you cant tell its a fake to my eyes. Under a 10x its hard to tell but if you know what you are looking at (its a CC morgan in MS quality) you can see its a fake. Oh and btw the ebay auction I won stated it would be stamped Copy but when I recieved it I was missing the mark.
Under my microscope its much more obvious the coin is a fake, the problem is who is going to take one of these to the coin store before buying? Using the microscope you can see very very small beads of what ever they used to plate the material. But in hand it looks just like a MS quality morgan.
Now if a 10 cent fake can easily fool me and my wife who is also a collector then I am convinced the general collecting public will be fooled. I would hate to see how good a real quality fake can be. My guess is I would never know.....
Bottom Feeder collector, Happy collector of Moderns
I'm actually a little shocked by the laisse faire attitude taken by some in the hobby ("I'm able to spot any and all fakes with my X-ray vision within 5 seconds in a crowded bourse with less than optimum lighting using my encyclopedic knowledge of all dates, patterns and types...don't you see the "S" on my chest?!?)
This is a cancer that's beginning to spread. Customers losing faith in the quality of their purchases is not good (just ask Wall Street what happens when the sheep lose confidence)...and since we all started as small fry back in the day...you just can't burn too many people without bad consequences! This is only the future of the hobby we're talking here...there's no reason we can't go the way of baseball cards, stamps and the dinosaurs, people!
Comments
On a number of occasions, NGC has denied a coin I tried to add. They then contacted the "owner", and, if he released it, it was then added to my registry.
On the issue of "educating" yourself to be aware of all counterfeits, I believe it would be impossible unless you devoted your life to it. Some of us are actual collectors, who consider collecting a hobby, not their lifes work. I have collected Large Cents for many years, and could PROBABLY spot a fake, but you could easily fool me with a quality counterfeit Bust coin, or a Trade Dollar. Not speaking to anyone in particular, but I think the Big Ego's are what the counterfeiters will eventually prey on. The guys who believe they can't be fooled. It's happening currently with a lot of the "Color" coins. There are "Super Toned" Morgan dollars available everywhere these days. Oddly enough, they were near non-existant not so many years ago.
Yeah, keep believing you can't be fooled, and before long, you WILL have a counterfeit in your collection. On the bright side, maybe it will be RARE "Color" coin!
I expect to suffer serious attacks for this post, but come on guys, nobody is perfect, even the TPG's get things wrong at times, and they actually ARE Experts!
In my simplistic opinion, nothing that is made in China can be trusted to be what it is claimed to be.
(Fed your dog Chinese pet food additives lately? Brushed you teeth with pesticide-laced toothpaste? Fed the baby some of the nice, nutritious Chinese baby formula with melamine added? Bought a fake Gucci handbag? How about some nice fake Trade dollars, or maybe Craftsman tools that shatter when you use them? Bought some pirated DVDs lately? The list is nearly endless. The only solutions are for importing countries to insist on independent testing of all imports from China – a Chinese expense – and for the Chinese Communist government to do a 180-degree and prohibit the fraud it now condones. China, Inc. is the largest criminal enterprise in the world.)
I certainly agree, but I doubt that the good couterfeits will be noted as "made in China".
Very scary situation, in my humble opinion.
Somehow the hobby managed to survive, and I expect it will continue to do so.
send in freddie the Finger breaker
Hey PCGS and NGC send Freddie over and fix em'
100% Positive BST transactions
If you do not think that you can detect a fake coin, stop buying stuff off ebay and work with a reputable dealer who can.
merse
Oddly enough, until about ten or fifteen years ago the Chinese used to staff their export-oriented factories with Party Commies for the purposes of quality assurance. Their positions were eliminated upon the insistence of Chinese capitalists that "the market" and their Western customers would be enough to keep them on the straight and narrow.
(Just think of city streets clogged with a hundred thousand horses each generating 15 lbs of manure every day...)
<< <i>Now we have a new fun hobby-counterfeit detection. Can't you picture yourself with your adoring children sitting around the kitchen table with their digital scales, calipers, atomic absorption spectrometers, stereoscopic microscope, specific gravity baths and a thousand dollar library of books learning how to detect fakes. Sounds fun. >>
I lol'd.
Hoard the keys.
Guys ....relax, the Feds are on top of this.
In fact they have opened a branch of the FDA in China and are staffing it with not 1, 2, or 3 employees but a full staff of four!!!
Just as soon as they get drug counterfeiting under control, I have heard all four of them will jump on the fake coin issue!!
<< <i>I'm with Weiss-- I think this is going to be one hell of a death knell for the hobby. It doesn't matter if I become a Jedi and am never fooled by a counterfeit coin-- the 400,000 collectors that WERE ripped off are going to leave collecting in droves. >>
I totally disagree as those folks that take up coin collecting will simply learn from their mistakes as we all have. Sure, some may leave but then my take on it is that they probably would have left anyway.
Collectors come and colectors go and thats just the way things are.
I don't really think that these fakes coming from China are really going to impact a whole lot except for those that just do not seem to understand that there are counterfeits out there and the only way to really protect yourself is to get some education on what it is you are collecting. If its Morgans, then learn about Morgans. If its busties then learn about busties. Once you've looked at enough of them, then the fakes should be quite obvious.
If you're uncomfortable buying from eBay, then blow it off and only buy from reputable dealers that will stand behind their product.
Its as simple as that.
The name is LEE!
<< <i>I'm afraid it's the end of the hobby. The money doesn't bother me as much as it's identity theft in a very real sense: I've been a coin collector since I was 4, and I turn 40 next year. Before I was married, before I developed my career, before high school or college, before I could vote or drive, I collected coins and thought of myself as a coin collector.
Now some greedy, hateful, criminal that I've never met and will never meet has ripped that part of my identity out. Three years, maybe five years from now I fully expect I will no longer identify myself as a coin collector. And we have virtually no recourse. Our government can't or won't stop it, and their government appears to be aiding them.
And it's not just my identity--it's our collective identity as Americans and our shared history as western civilization. What history is there in a piece of worthless metal forged in a nameless factory in Shanghai last month?
They're stealing our identity as coin collectors, as Americans. I hate them. >>
Oh please, stop with the BOO HOO HOO doom and gloom. Counterfeiting is always balanced by the free market. If people leave the hobby because of it, the number of
counterfeiters will be affected as well. The counterfeiters know full well if they produce a perfect coin, it destroys their own market.
Free Trial
and say "educate yourself and you'll be alright."
That imo is true at micro, but also a bit short sighted in the grand scheme of things.
Failing to realize the effect consumer confidence has on the hobby.
Reflecting back at the counterfeiting of thirty, forty years ago is not a good indicator either. This is a different era, international trade is a mouse click away.
Ebay is just absolutely flooded with the fakes mentioned. And it's not like people aren't buying
them. These "replica" coins that don't have the replica stamp on them when buyers receive are being
purchased by the thousands. Just look at the feedback numbers these chinese sellers have.
Speaking personally, there's two stages to any purchase. The buying and the selling.
Most collectors including myself sell at some point. It's this second stage that concerns me
the most.
I may not be able to spot a counterfeit, but there's plenty of professionals or even the us mint that
i can purchase from and know it's legitimate.
However, when it comes to that second stage, and it's time for me to liquidate, who am I?
A small collector with an ebay ID. Not good if consumer confidence is damaged. The two way
street becomes buy and hold. Or even take a beating and fold.
<< <i>
Counterfeiting is always balanced by the free market. If people leave the hobby because of it, the number of
counterfeiters will be affected as well. The counterfeiters know full well if they produce a perfect coin, it destroys their own market. >>
Free market? Balance? Where the hell are you living that you haven't caught on that the free market is not free and the Chinese government doesn't give a rat's rearend about balance? As long as the local and fed gov can press taxes out of counterfeit operations they'll let them crank them out and pollute at will.
BS&T
Ebay: + <waitin'> NEG: Chameleoncoins
NonBST/Ebay:
WTB: Toners, BU Darkside, Sovs & 20 Mark, LMU/SMU Gold.
<< <i>As fake slabs are developed the TPGs with develop better fraud prevention and detection, and develop better slabs that are harder to fake. It is an arms race of sorts to be sure, but I, for one, don't think that China will win. >>
The problem with this "arms race" is that the grading services will have to spend more money on R&D which they will try to recover by charging higher prices to the customer.
Chris
<< <i>Shouldnt be alarmed if you learned how to detect counterfeits. The ANA has classes taught by autheticators at the grading services each year during the summer seminar and there are books that show in pictures the very obvious ones and altered coins.
Cameron Kiefer >>
Most collectors can barely grade. Authentication takes ten times the dedication and time to learn that learning to grade takes. Reading a book and watching the video will only help against the crude fakes and some of the mid-level fakes if the student is attentive. Against, the high quality fakes, and the state of the art die-struck fakes, even many dealers will have trouble and coins are their business.
If the answer is for collectors becoming authenticators, it is time to say goodbye to 90% to 99% of the collector base. Most don't have the time, or won't take the time to learn to authenticate. Count me in that group and I have been in the hobby for decades.
<< <i>As fake slabs are developed the TPGs with develop better fraud prevention and detection, and develop better slabs that are harder to fake. >>
Maybe so, but a proliferation of slab types will only lead to marketplace confusion. And there's no need for counterfeiters to duplicate the newest slabs, when they can go back and copy the older, simpler versions more easily.
The people who need to worry about this are the TPGs. If the credibility added to coins by a slab is damaged enough, the industry might find itself redundant.
my early American coins & currency: -- http://yankeedoodlecoins.com/
<< <i>ICG reported some fake platinums a couple years ago >>
here in Phoenix, you can buy all the fake gold, silver and platinum eagles you want; all slabbed in MS/PF 69 and 70 fake PCGS holders. A guy at a local flea market here sets up often, and has a ton of them. they look quite good! good enough to fool the newbie, most average collectors and certainly investors.
So is information, which was *not* easily available 40 years ago. Buying a 1909-S VDB cent in the 1960s meant either finding a dealer you could totally trust, or becoming an expert authenticator yourself. The same consideration applied to grading. Finding a decent price was also a problem, there was no eBay back then to facilitate price comparisons when buying or selling. Counterfeit, altered and cleaned/retoned coins were all over the place to trap the unwary, and yet the hobby continued to survive and thrive.
I *much* prefer today's coin market, with 24/7 access to knowledgeable collectors on boards like this, to the market of the 1960s when the typical collector's universe consisted of dealers and other local collectors, weekly coin newspapers and annual price guides.
Seriously, anyone who doesn't believe the fakes will have a chilling effect on the coin marketplace, hence the hobby, is in denial. Fans, serious and casual, still attend baseball games and cheer home run records, but none can escape the cloud of doubt that hangs over all outstanding athletic accomplishment. The last thing any of us need in today's environment is more doubt and uncertainty. Someone earlier in the thread made the point that if you can spot the fake, by definition it isn't a good one.
Chuck
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<< <i>ICG reported some fake platinums a couple years ago >>
here in Phoenix, you can buy all the fake gold, silver and platinum eagles you want; all slabbed in MS/PF 69 and 70 fake PCGS holders. A guy at a local flea market here sets up often, and has a ton of them. they look quite good! good enough to fool the newbie, most average collectors and certainly investors. >>
Does he claim they're real? It's one thing to sell that stuff from China, but from the US, it's a trip to the poky for you.
<< <i>
<< <i>ICG reported some fake platinums a couple years ago >>
here in Phoenix, you can buy all the fake gold, silver and platinum eagles you want; all slabbed in MS/PF 69 and 70 fake PCGS holders. A guy at a local flea market here sets up often, and has a ton of them. they look quite good! good enough to fool the newbie, most average collectors and certainly investors. >>
Please forward specific information to David Hall or Don Willis as I'm sure that PCGS would love to prosecute this guy to the fullest extent of the law. Better yet, provide his name and the flea market so that this fellow can be tracked down.
The name is LEE!
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<< <i>Shouldnt be alarmed if you learned how to detect counterfeits. The ANA has classes taught by autheticators at the grading services each year during the summer seminar and there are books that show in pictures the very obvious ones and altered coins.
Cameron Kiefer >>
Most collectors can barely grade. Authentication takes ten times the dedication and time to learn that learning to grade takes. Reading a book and watching the video will only help against the crude fakes and some of the mid-level fakes if the student is attentive. Against, the high quality fakes, and the state of the art die-struck fakes, even many dealers will have trouble and coins are their business.
If the answer is for collectors becoming authenticators, it is time to say goodbye to 90% to 99% of the collector base. Most don't have the time, or won't take the time to learn to authenticate. Count me in that group and I have been in the hobby for decades. >>
This is how I feel, I have been in the hobby for decades but I'm still no where near an expert authenticator. I was really glad to see the TPG come along, they were in my opinion the best thing that happened to the hobby for a long time. Now we have to authenticate the slab.It is just taking a lot of the fun out of coin collecting for me. I know there are some of you who say learn what you are doing or get another hobby but I have always been attracted to coins but I don't want to make it my life's work.
that have strange slabbed coins - really 3rd or bottom tier
I do not know, but feel that frequently the auction house is actually the consignor/owner of these coins
what is there to stop these 'sellers' from selling key date fakes
or even the 3rd tier slabbers from putting these in their slabs?
This is scary shat, and could devistate the hobby if left unchecked, IMO.
How about a microchip inserted in the slab, that could be swiped with a handheld device, with 512 bit encryption?
Starting to think about it, it's more than a fake slab. We are in a midst of a replicated, duplicated, copied, genuine copied, society.
Everything is copied from Prada, Gucci, Rolex, Jordan rookies, Pandas, Bust dollars, $100 FRNs, to, you name it.
Buy only from authorized distributors/dealers, I guess. I'm confident that the TPG's will come up with a solution.
Scott
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<< <i>
Counterfeiting is always balanced by the free market. If people leave the hobby because of it, the number of
counterfeiters will be affected as well. The counterfeiters know full well if they produce a perfect coin, it destroys their own market. >>
Free market? Balance? Where the hell are you living that you haven't caught on that the free market is not free and the Chinese government doesn't give a rat's rearend about balance? As long as the local and fed gov can press taxes out of counterfeit operations they'll let them crank them out and pollute at will. >>
Thanks for completely missing my point with that rant. Let the Chinese produce trillions of them. Who cares? It will not fool anyone but the inexperienced. And next time
you attack me, have the courage to show your real ID and not hide behind an alt id.
Free Trial
<< <i>Doesn't the Chinese government sponser counterfeiting?
This is scary shat, and could devistate the hobby if left unchecked, IMO.
How about a microchip inserted in the slab, that could be swiped with a handheld device, with 512 bit encryption?
Starting to think about it, it's more than a fake slab. We are in a midst of a replicated, duplicated, copied, genuine copied, society.
Everything is copied from Prada, Gucci, Rolex, Jordan rookies, Pandas, Bust dollars, $100 FRNs, to, you name it.
Buy only from authorized distributors/dealers, I guess. I'm confident that the TPG's will come up with a solution.
Scott >>
Should all colletors (500.000 pelple?) sign a letter to our President, their president Mr HU.
We will find out what will happen after that.
Do not let them make us sick!
Hope some one will come up with a web site with all our
collectors sign to send it to both presidents.
When human cloning is perfected, we can let the clones collect all the fake coins, and we originals can collect the real ones!
<< <i>I wonder how much of this material is now coming into the US market via flea markets, etc.? >>
it has to be quite bit judging by the amount of other rip off stuff
they sell from china. purses, polo shirts, etc...
you want to see how bad it is for other hobbies? check out mccoy
pottery. these people have conventions and so many proud collectors
are told their stuff is fake.
that has to suck.
link
this pic is particularly interesting..
morgans
here is a link to the beginning article
original
You are Counterfeiting my Moniker!!
If you know this and did not do anything, like alert the flea market manager, then who's fault is it. If you see counterfeits offered anywhere you should speak up. Not only to the seller but to the venue he is using, be it a coin show, an antique mall kiosk, flea market, or eBay.
They should be made to fell queasy for knowingly offering fakes. They may not go away, but at least they might rethink their product line.
The "seller" was a frequent CW contributor...and said that several of the dealers were shocked at the quality...after offering to purchase...while others "felt" something might be wrong and declined...but couldn't put their finger on what exactly was wrong.
The results did not inspire confidence in purchasing non-slabbed merchandise...and not only the rare stuff...now good quality common date stuff is appearing!
"A dog breaks your heart only one time and that is when they pass on". Unknown
<< <i>Anyone see the latest issue of Coin World...essentially a 50% failure rate to detect "higher quality" counterfeits at a major bourse...and the detection failure rate would have likely been higher if the "grapevine" didn't kick in and dealers quickly started alerting each other that something was afoot.
The "seller" was a frequent CW contributor...and said that several of the dealers were shocked at the quality...after offering to purchase...while others "felt" something might be wrong and declined...but couldn't put their finger on what exactly was wrong.
The results did not inspire confidence in purchasing non-slabbed merchandise...and not only the rare stuff...now good quality common date stuff is appearing! >>
Looks like the Chicken Little's may be right this time. If 50% of dealers can't spot the fakes, 99.5% of Ebay buyers won't be able to either. Of the dealers that declined offers on the fakes, a good many probably got word from their buddies that someone was testing them by offering fakes around the show, not because they were able to tell the difference. Put the good fakes in a good fake slab and yikes. Even low cost coins are subject to being faked because there is still profit to be made.
It is disturbing news and the coin folks seem unable to counter the onslaught. The main difference this time is that the makers are overseas so the U. S. authorities can't get to them to turn off the spigot. I don't know how others feel, but these kind of reports get me closer to a coin buying halt, with an exception of direct purchases from the U. S. mint.
I purchased one of the fake coins from a dealer in China (paid 10 cents + shipping) and in hand without a 10x you cant tell its a fake to my eyes. Under a 10x its hard to tell but if you know what you are looking at (its a CC morgan in MS quality) you can see its a fake. Oh and btw the ebay auction I won stated it would be stamped Copy but when I recieved it I was missing the mark.
Under my microscope its much more obvious the coin is a fake, the problem is who is going to take one of these to the coin store before buying? Using the microscope you can see very very small beads of what ever they used to plate the material. But in hand it looks just like a MS quality morgan.
Now if a 10 cent fake can easily fool me and my wife who is also a collector then I am convinced the general collecting public will be fooled. I would hate to see how good a real quality fake can be. My guess is I would never know.....
This is a cancer that's beginning to spread. Customers losing faith in the quality of their purchases is not good (just ask Wall Street what happens when the sheep lose confidence)...and since we all started as small fry back in the day...you just can't burn too many people without bad consequences! This is only the future of the hobby we're talking here...there's no reason we can't go the way of baseball cards, stamps and the dinosaurs, people!