<< <i>At the Baltimore Show many dealers refused to even consider NGC coins, it seemed to be PCGS only. Whats going on here? Not that i am complaining, i am a PCGS man, just curious >>
No plastic would stop me if the negotiated price was correct.
let's not let conjecture here get in the way of facts.
PCGS submissions are down 16, the only thing that is doing really well is world coins for PCGS submissions. That is according to the recent CLCT conference call thread i posted recently. World coin submissions are up over 70%!
NGC is doing quite fine due to the fact they are far and away the recognized leader in world coins with a near monopoly in scarce and rare world coins. With US coin submissions slipping badly for both services, the real business has to come from overseas. NGC is enjoying big business in this regard. While some dealers may want to play the plastic fantastic game for US coins, NGC as a whole isn't going anywhere.
the elephant in the room is the fact that PCGS's stock price is down 80%, and the company is bleeding money. Instead of futile "this TPG versus that TPG", i'm wondering why there hasn't been more concern about a possible liquidation of PCGS to shore up the company? What would selling off PCGS do to the value of PCGS graded coins, or to another point, the bankruptcy of Collector's Universe?
<< <i>All observations of odds and tendencies break down on an individual coin basis. I've had NGC upgrade PCGS coins and I've had PCGS upgrade NGC coins. >>
All observations of odds and tendencies break down on an individual coin basis...and the pops? True but would you have done so if the pops were lobsided? And please elaborate!
I heard from several people that they've gotten stung by both services. PCGS had gotten so "stingy" that they now send everything to NGC. And some amazing stuff comes back: a 1892 B 50C that is a clear supernice 58 in a 62 holder. An impaired 1894 Morgan at best AU58 as a 61. Scares me off NGC holders I cannot return.
Coinborg: Your distinctive coins will be added to my collection. BS&T : kryptonitecomics, PCcoins (2x), Spoon (7x), Coppercolor, Preussen (2x), Filamcoins, agentjim007, CB2597, DCW, 1960NYGiants Ebay: + <waitin'> NEG: Chameleoncoins NonBST/Ebay: Rick's Coins WTB: Toners, BU Darkside, Sovs & 20 Mark, LMU/SMU Gold.
<< <i>And here's another total for the NgC faithful;
On the silver nickels 1942-P to 1945-S, MS only, NGC has graded 35,240 nickels. 17,859 were graded MS66, 15,071 were graded MS67! Add the MS66, MS67 numbers plus the MS68 and the star designated coins we add another 398 certified coins and we have a grand total of 33,328 out of 35,240 that were graded MS66 and higher! Anyone want to take a gander on how many MS65 coins NGC has graded over the years it has been in business????? It's only 766! >>
I don't have access to the PCGS pop reports at this moment (and too lazy to get my CC out to get it), but how about giving the complete picture? You're talking numbers without talking the total numbers on everything.
Let's say that NGC has graded 50,000 nickels in that time period, and 15,000, or 30% are MS67. Then let's say PCGS has graded 750 in MS67. What do the numbers look like if PCGS has only graded 3,000 nickels? That's 25%... doesn't look all that different...
If you're going to use the numbers to make your arguements, at least give the full picture. I know that there are more than a few areas (especially in moderns) where NGC has graded 3x, 4x, 5x as many coins, and more, than PCGS has. If you only look at how many in absolute numbers have been graded in a certain grade, you're not looking at the whole picture. You have to also look at the percentage of the overall total...
<< <i>I heard from several people that they've gotten stung by both services. PCGS had gotten so "stingy" that they now send everything to NGC. And some amazing stuff comes back: a 1892 B 50C that is a clear supernice 58 in a 62 holder. An impaired 1894 Morgan at best AU58 as a 61. Scares me off NGC holders I cannot return. >>
You should be scared off of ANY coin you cannot return............. there are dogs in PCGS holders too... they are out there...
<< <i>So now we have a series of posts about PCGS being "more strict" grading coins. That's all well and good, but obviously those saying so confess to being able to grade in the first place, which implies that the services of a third party wasn't needed by them in the first place.
Tens (or maybe hundreds) of millions of dollars have been spent on plastic. Not for the benefit of those who can grade, but for the benefit of those who prefer not to learn how to do so. >>
Regards,
John
Need the following OBW rolls to complete my 46-64 Roosevelt roll set: 1947-P & D; 1948-D; 1949-P & S; 1950-D & S; and 1952-S. Any help locating any of these OBW rolls would be gratefully appreciated!
It would be interesting for the members to go in on a group submission of common date classic coins in the MS63 to 64 range. We could pick 10 coins for submission and first submitt them to NGC. Record and photograph the coins in the NGC slabs and then crack and submitt them to PCGS and compare the grades. If ten different members each sent one coin to the submitter no one would be out 2 sets of 10 grading fees for the test. Once the test is complete, the owner would get the coin back in the final PCGS plastic. Granted 10 coins is a small sample to draw any concrete conclusions, but it would be enough to show some trends.
JJ
Need a Barber Half with ANACS photo certificate. If you have one for sale please PM me. Current Ebay auctions
I don't have much submitting experience, but in the limited experience I have in sending coins to NGC, I've experience a couple of upgrades from formerly graded PCGS plastic and a few downgrades from PCGS plastic. The majority of the PCGS coins that I have cracked from PCGS plastic and sent to NGC came back in the same grade! My sample size is only about 15-20 coins, but was enough to show me that the number on any particular holder could go a point in either direction if sent to the other service. I trust the grades of both companies equally (with the exeception of moderns graded 70, which I'll never buy anyways). The ONLY time I'll seek out a particular coin in PCGS for the name over a similar NGC coin is if I need the particular coin for a PCGS Registry set since they don't allow NGC coins, unlike the NGC Registry.
I've never run into a dealer that has refused coins just because they are in NGC plastic... seems absurd to me. The dealers that matter will look at the coin first, then the holder. If the coin is PQ, there are enough dealers out there that'll pay full PCGS Guide prices for an NGC coin. And yes, there are most definitely dogs in both types of holders.
<< <i>It would be interesting for the members to go in on a group submission of common date classic coins in the MS63 to 64 range. We could pick 10 coins for submission and first submitt them to NGC. Record and photograph the coins in the NGC slabs and then crack and submitt them to PCGS and compare the grades. If ten different members each sent one coin to the submitter no one would be out 2 sets of 10 grading fees for the test. Once the test is complete, the owner would get the coin back in the final PCGS plastic. Granted 10 coins is a small sample to draw any concrete conclusions, but it would be enough to show some trends.
JJ >>
I've got several in my BST post that I've cracked from either PCGS or NGC. Would definitely volunteer one or more to play in the experiment... then we'd actually have 3 data points including the original grade which I already cracked the coin from... would be fun maybe if anyone else is interested.
<< <i>It would be interesting for the members to go in on a group submission of common date classic coins in the MS63 to 64 range. We could pick 10 coins for submission and first submitt them to NGC. Record and photograph the coins in the NGC slabs and then crack and submitt them to PCGS and compare the grades. If ten different members each sent one coin to the submitter no one would be out 2 sets of 10 grading fees for the test. Once the test is complete, the owner would get the coin back in the final PCGS plastic. Granted 10 coins is a small sample to draw any concrete conclusions, but it would be enough to show some trends.
JJ >>
I've got several in my BST post that I've cracked from either PCGS or NGC. Would definitely volunteer one or more to play in the experiment... then we'd actually have 3 data points including the original grade which I already cracked the coin from... would be fun maybe if anyone else is interested. >>
I have a coin or two also that I would volunteer for the experiment. I don't currently have submission privledges to either service, so some one else would have to do the submitting.
JJ
Need a Barber Half with ANACS photo certificate. If you have one for sale please PM me. Current Ebay auctions
I rate then about the same as ANACS. Both are ok most of the time but are known for some real overgraded stuff. They are not as good as they used to be.
I prefer the discounted NGC coins. I just can not find them for the coins i collect.
I mainly collect proof Liberty and shield nickels. I can find nice examples in both holders. I agree that PCGS has more precieved value, BUT it is kind of like Coke vs. Dr. Pepper with pepsi being ANACS.
I am going to start asking for the discounted NGC price from here on out!!!!!!
Mark NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!! working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
<< <i>At the Baltimore Show many dealers refused to even consider NGC coins, it seemed to be PCGS only. Whats going on here? Not that i am complaining, i am a PCGS man, just curious >>
As usual...off the original track of the OP we go...
Who grades better or worse is not really the issue... the perception of the general market place is the issue...
... the OP and I shared the ride to and from Baltimore and had alot of time to talk. We both experienced the same thing at the show...
DEALERS were reluctant, at best, to even consider NGC coins but were eager to look at and buy PCGS coins...
...and when they WILL consider an NGC coin it is usually at a significant discount to coins in PCGS holders. (Sure, they sell them at the same price...I imagine that could be because they might have more trouble selling NGC coins and find the PCGS coins tend to move faster).
Heck...most dealers will not even LOOK at ANACS coins (forget the rest of the TPG's) and to my experience, neither will most collectors. Even when the rare person does look, it is always with the question of "Will this cross to PCGS?" and "How much will you discount this coin?".
Re: Slabbed coins - There are some coins that LIVE within clear plastic and wear their labels with pride... while there are others that HIDE behind scratched plastic and are simply dragged along by a label. Then there are those coins that simply hang out, naked and free
<< <i>At the Baltimore Show many dealers refused to even consider NGC coins, it seemed to be PCGS only. >>
No offense to the author of the original post. But we start off with a bit of completely unsubstantiated hearsay, and every one jumps to a bunch of conclusions that have probably no basis in reality.
I've only been collecting since the late 70's (ignoring my collecting as a kid), and I firmly believe if you take an overgraded, dipped and at'd coin to a decent dealer in a PCGS slab they won't buy that one either. We have already heard from one dealer that was buying NGC coins, so I guess all the theories are shot now.
My collection is a little heavy on the NGC side, probably 60/40 at present. Personally I don't notice that either one makes fewer mistakes than the other, I pass on plenty of coins in both holders, and I buy plenty in both holders.
The problem with NGC is that by the time most collectors have a chance to purchase a coin, it's been tried for upgrade forever, then tried for crossover forever and then picked over by more connected collectors. What's left tends to be the worst of what they produce. Unless you have a conduit to coins fresh from NGC or have held your collection for a long time or have a great eye and picked through 99% of the market, many dealers just aren't going to want your NGC coins when the market is slow. Unless they are really really cheap.
But sometimes really really cheap isn't cheap enough.
Isn’t this question kind of “self serving” I mean, here we are on home turf and your knocking the competition, isn’t that what we're supposed to be doing , bolstering the home team…here then, rah, rah, sis boom bah!
Give me a “P” Give me a “C” Give me a “G” Give me an “S”
<< <i>Heck...most dealers will not even LOOK at ANACS coins (forget the rest of the TPG's) and to my experience, neither will most collectors. Even when the rare person does look, it is always with the question of "Will this cross to PCGS?" and "How much will you discount this coin?". >>
I've noticed this too and have found some bargains in ANACS holders. IMO, this is great news for collectors with patience.
<< <i>And here's another total for the NgC faithful;
On the silver nickels 1942-P to 1945-S, MS only, NGC has graded 35,240 nickels. 17,859 were graded MS66, 15,071 were graded MS67! Add the MS66, MS67 numbers plus the MS68 and the star designated coins we add another 398 certified coins and we have a grand total of 33,328 out of 35,240 that were graded MS66 and higher! Anyone want to take a gander on how many MS65 coins NGC has graded over the years it has been in business????? It's only 766! >>
I don't have access to the PCGS pop reports at this moment (and too lazy to get my CC out to get it), but how about giving the complete picture? You're talking numbers without talking the total numbers on everything.
Let's say that NGC has graded 50,000 nickels in that time period, and 15,000, or 30% are MS67. Then let's say PCGS has graded 750 in MS67. What do the numbers look like if PCGS has only graded 3,000 nickels? That's 25%... doesn't look all that different...
If you're going to use the numbers to make your arguements, at least give the full picture. I know that there are more than a few areas (especially in moderns) where NGC has graded 3x, 4x, 5x as many coins, and more, than PCGS has. If you only look at how many in absolute numbers have been graded in a certain grade, you're not looking at the whole picture. You have to also look at the percentage of the overall total... >>
I guess I'm lazy too. Besides, why should I do everyone's homework? The numbers, 784 MS67's war nickels to NGC's 15,071 should say it all! Just compare the values. Ngc has cleverly reduced the value of any MS67 war nickels in their holders to face value. From past experience, I couldn't give them away! And I've had dealers trying to give them to me. They would say, take it, I want you to have it, you're a nickelman and I would refuse.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
<< <i>All observations of odds and tendencies break down on an individual coin basis. I've had NGC upgrade PCGS coins and I've had PCGS upgrade NGC coins. >>
All observations of odds and tendencies break down on an individual coin basis...and the pops? True but would you have done so if the pops were lobsided? And please elaborate!
Leo >>
I'm sorry - I don't understand your question. >>
Would you take into consideation the pops of NGC verses PCGS before attempting a crossover from PCGS to NGC? Of course you would. I guess it was a dumb question.....nevermind.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
At the Baltimore Show many dealers refused to even consider NGC coins, it seemed to be PCGS only. Whats going on here? Not that i am complaining, i am a PCGS man, just curious
Halfhunter06 - Being a PCGS man, I'm curious how it is that you had NGC coins to offer. Also, I wonder if you tried offering PCGS coins to the same people that didn't want your NGC coins, and if they bought them. Or did you just have NGC coins, and take their excuses and negotiating tactics at face value?
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Look again. NGC is NOT more strict on MS66 trade dollars. What you are probably seeing is the Seattle Hoard of 1878-S coins discovered in 1990. Grade inflation has led these kicking and screaming into MS66 holders.
However, your statement calls your methods into question. Are you relying upon total pops to determine who is more strict? That seems silly for rarer classic coins where a single submission can skew the numbers.
No, you can look again. I made the comparison a few years back. The NGC % was <1% 66's of total submitted while PCGS was slightly >1%. But they were close. While PCGS had indeed graded 2X as many coins they had even less 65's than NGC. And the PCGS ratio of 65's to 66's was 2-1. The NGC ratio was 5-1. That lead to conclude that the NGC66 pieces might actually be fair buys at a discount to PCGS 66's. But the NGC 65's should probably be avoided. It seemed like an anomaly at the 66 level...one of the very few in the entire silver type arena. Yeah, my methods were correct. With only 25 NGC 66's at that time vs 125 MS65's, that was an unusual ratio going from 65 to 66 where the standard was typically 2-1 or 3-1. I figured an MS66 trade dollar was one of NGC's last bastion of tightness. I stand by my methods. It may not be any more. I never did find one either at the time I was looking.
Yeah, I look at total pops only to make unfounded decisions.
<< <i>At the Baltimore Show many dealers refused to even consider NGC coins, it seemed to be PCGS only. Whats going on here? Not that i am complaining, i am a PCGS man, just curious
Halfhunter06 - Being a PCGS man, I'm curious how it is that you had NGC coins to offer. Also, I wonder if you tried offering PCGS coins to the same people that didn't want your NGC coins, and if they bought them. Or did you just have NGC coins, and take their excuses and negotiating tactics at face value? >>
Andy, as I said before, I went down there with Halfhunter... I brought two boxes of coins for sale... PCGS, NGC, a few old green&white label PCI and some Blue ANACS slabs... all sorts of coins from a few widgets to Morgans to Commems to Trade Dollars and type coins... showed to a number of dealers, mainly trying out folks I do not usually deal with...
NO interest at all with ANACS or the old PCI...they did not (except one dealer) even look at the coins in those holders. A few looked at the NGC's quickly BUT they all took time with the PCGS coins and those are what ended up selling. For the record, my prices on all the coins, was 10% back of bid. (Cleaning house, so to speak ...)
I did, however, sell two NGC/GSA Morgans I had, besides the 40 other coins, to a dealer who "likes" them...
Re: Slabbed coins - There are some coins that LIVE within clear plastic and wear their labels with pride... while there are others that HIDE behind scratched plastic and are simply dragged along by a label. Then there are those coins that simply hang out, naked and free
<< <i>I would give them an equal to or better than pcgs on the darkside....not so US.
I am not sure why that is. Maybe just doing foreign grading longer. >>
"market acceptance" plays a big role there.
NGC has a near monopoly on grading rare world coins. PCGS has certified only 5 world coins that have sold for six figures, NGC commonly has more than that in a single auction (US and foreign auctions). Plus, NGC has certified all of the seven figure world coins, PCGS has none. It isn't uncommon for a top pop world coin to be cracked out from a PCGS holder, and then sell for quite a bit more in the same (or lower) NGC holder. A half dozen of the Millennia Collection coins were former PCGS 'top pops' that were crossed to NGC. One in particular sold from the same auction house at another major event, only 5 months before Millennia in a PCGS holder. It was a former PCGS MS67 that was crossed to MS66 at NGC. Even being downgraded a point, it sold for over TWICE as much as it did 5 months before as an higher graded PCGS coin. For less expensive coins in the 3 figure and low four figure range, PCGS still has some traction with some country's coins; you get much past that point and it becomes a different story.
Yes, NGC has been at it for much longer, and the auction results bear it out.
<< <i>Heck...most dealers will not even LOOK at ANACS coins (forget the rest of the TPG's) and to my experience, neither will most collectors. Even when the rare person does look, it is always with the question of "Will this cross to PCGS?" and "How much will you discount this coin?". >>
I've noticed this too and have found some bargains in ANACS holders. IMO, this is great news for collectors with patience. >>
The problem I have, there's just too much crap out there to look at. It's just not feasable. If anybody wants to show me a coin they better be giving the touchdown signal that they have something of significance. Otherwise, I'll need to pass. This is why I collect the coin by it's strike first. I can go through alot of coins faster that way.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
<< <i>Look again. NGC is NOT more strict on MS66 trade dollars. What you are probably seeing is the Seattle Hoard of 1878-S coins discovered in 1990. Grade inflation has led these kicking and screaming into MS66 holders.
However, your statement calls your methods into question. Are you relying upon total pops to determine who is more strict? That seems silly for rarer classic coins where a single submission can skew the numbers.
No, you can look again. I made the comparison a few years back. The NGC % was <1% 66's of total submitted while PCGS was slightly >1%. But they were close. While PCGS had indeed graded 2X as many coins they had even less 65's than NGC. And the PCGS ratio of 65's to 66's was 2-1. The NGC ratio was 5-1. That lead to conclude that the NGC66 pieces might actually be fair buys at a discount to PCGS 66's. But the NGC 65's should probably be avoided. It seemed like an anomaly at the 66 level...one of the very few in the entire silver type arena. Yeah, my methods were correct. With only 25 NGC 66's at that time vs 125 MS65's, that was an unusual ratio going from 65 to 66 where the standard was typically 2-1 or 3-1. I figured an MS66 trade dollar was one of NGC's last bastion of tightness. I stand by my methods. It may not be any more. I never did find one either at the time I was looking.
Yeah, I look at total pops only to make unfounded decisions.
roadrunner >>
MS66 trade dollars are extremely rare. I have owned most of the top coins and I have a preference for PCGS so most were put in their holders. The only other group besides mine is the Seattle Hoard of 1878-S. I would say that between the two [appx 18 coins?] this accounts for any anomoly in percentages.
Your method breaks down with small populations. The huge variances from small hoards are too big.
<< <i>With only 25 NGC 66's at that time vs 125 MS65's
If those are the pops at NGC, then NGC is way too loose on both grades. Just a little less loose on MS66's. >>
You can make no such assumption because you don't know how many coins are SUBMITTED to each service. Additionally, on some hoards, all the coins get "steered" to a specific grading service as part of a "marketing agreement."
Frank Provasek - PCGS Authorized Dealer, Life Member ANA, Member TNA. www.frankcoins.com
To Andy and all the guys here, I have worked on grading coins with both PCGS and NGC graders and let me say that NGC is in no way inferior to PCGS. NGC employs many distinguished and experiences people. In some aspects of grading I have even found NGC to be superior in their standards, such as determining what is a FBL Franklin Half. What I am talking about is the MARKET. The market has basically dictated PCGS as number 1 and NGC as number 2. This showed itself clearly at the recent Baltimore show and my question is WHY?
This showed itself clearly at the recent Baltimore show and my question is WHY?
As I requested in my previous post, please give us more details about your experience in Baltimore. For those of us who did not spend the show in your shoes, it's hard to judge the WHY until we know the WHAT.
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>This showed itself clearly at the recent Baltimore show and my question is WHY?
As I requested in my previous post, please give us more details about your experience in Baltimore. For those of us who did not spend the show in your shoes, it's hard to judge the WHY until we know the WHAT. >>
Hi Andy --- Please give Aki a pet from me...
I am sure that I must be typing with invisible ink... yet I have posted to this thread and another with details... I travelled with the OP to the show...I also had the same experience as Halfhunter and we discussed it...
Search thru this thread for some form of answer to your question...right after you asked it previously...
Re: Slabbed coins - There are some coins that LIVE within clear plastic and wear their labels with pride... while there are others that HIDE behind scratched plastic and are simply dragged along by a label. Then there are those coins that simply hang out, naked and free
If one looked at the floor he or she would see many, many more PCGS slabbed coins than NGC. People were asking more for PCGS coins and buying PCGS coins for much more. There were even those who did not want any NGC graded coins..only PCGS. If one goes to Heritages auction records they can see many examples of PCGS coins going for higher than NGC coins. At Baltimore this situation seemed to be more prevelant than in previous shows. This is the market we live in today and I ask what makes this the case?
<< <i>And here's another total for the NgC faithful;
On the silver nickels 1942-P to 1945-S, MS only, NGC has graded 35,240 nickels. 17,859 were graded MS66, 15,071 were graded MS67! Add the MS66, MS67 numbers plus the MS68 and the star designated coins we add another 398 certified coins and we have a grand total of 33,328 out of 35,240 that were graded MS66 and higher! Anyone want to take a gander on how many MS65 coins NGC has graded over the years it has been in business????? It's only 766! >>
I don't have access to the PCGS pop reports at this moment (and too lazy to get my CC out to get it), but how about giving the complete picture? You're talking numbers without talking the total numbers on everything.
Let's say that NGC has graded 50,000 nickels in that time period, and 15,000, or 30% are MS67. Then let's say PCGS has graded 750 in MS67. What do the numbers look like if PCGS has only graded 3,000 nickels? That's 25%... doesn't look all that different...
If you're going to use the numbers to make your arguements, at least give the full picture. I know that there are more than a few areas (especially in moderns) where NGC has graded 3x, 4x, 5x as many coins, and more, than PCGS has. If you only look at how many in absolute numbers have been graded in a certain grade, you're not looking at the whole picture. You have to also look at the percentage of the overall total... >>
I guess I'm lazy too. Besides, why should I do everyone's homework? The numbers, 784 MS67's war nickels to NGC's 15,071 should say it all! Just compare the values. Ngc has cleverly reduced the value of any MS67 war nickels in their holders to face value. From past experience, I couldn't give them away! And I've had dealers trying to give them to me. They would say, take it, I want you to have it, you're a nickelman and I would refuse.
Leo >>
I'm not argueing your point about war nickels. I'm argueing the method of your arguements. You attempt to strengthen your arguements by only giving a partial look at the numbers without giving the full picture, and presenting it in a way to agree with your point of view.
<< <i>And here's another total for the NgC faithful;
On the silver nickels 1942-P to 1945-S, MS only, NGC has graded 35,240 nickels. 17,859 were graded MS66, 15,071 were graded MS67! Add the MS66, MS67 numbers plus the MS68 and the star designated coins we add another 398 certified coins and we have a grand total of 33,328 out of 35,240 that were graded MS66 and higher! Anyone want to take a gander on how many MS65 coins NGC has graded over the years it has been in business????? It's only 766! >>
I don't have access to the PCGS pop reports at this moment (and too lazy to get my CC out to get it), but how about giving the complete picture? You're talking numbers without talking the total numbers on everything.
Let's say that NGC has graded 50,000 nickels in that time period, and 15,000, or 30% are MS67. Then let's say PCGS has graded 750 in MS67. What do the numbers look like if PCGS has only graded 3,000 nickels? That's 25%... doesn't look all that different...
If you're going to use the numbers to make your arguements, at least give the full picture. I know that there are more than a few areas (especially in moderns) where NGC has graded 3x, 4x, 5x as many coins, and more, than PCGS has. If you only look at how many in absolute numbers have been graded in a certain grade, you're not looking at the whole picture. You have to also look at the percentage of the overall total... >>
I guess I'm lazy too. Besides, why should I do everyone's homework? The numbers, 784 MS67's war nickels to NGC's 15,071 should say it all! Just compare the values. Ngc has cleverly reduced the value of any MS67 war nickels in their holders to face value. From past experience, I couldn't give them away! And I've had dealers trying to give them to me. They would say, take it, I want you to have it, you're a nickelman and I would refuse.
Leo >>
I'm not argueing your point about war nickels. I'm argueing the method of your arguements. You attempt to strengthen your arguements by only giving a partial look at the numbers without giving the full picture, and presenting it in a way to agree with your point of view. >>
I could have simply said, Ngc has graded 15,071 war nickels MS67 to PCGS's 766! That alone would have said volumes. I strongly encourage any collector to do their homework on any grading service before having their coins certified. Or you may end up learning too late that you've paid too much to have a coin wrapped in a plastic that carries little or no value.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
Heck is going to freeze over before I buy NGC gold sight unseen.
Cy the Cynic says....................what up with big time dealers who have 80-95% of their coins on their site in NGC holders? Did they already sell the PCGS?
I'm no koolaid drinker but I do believe my own two eyes. You had better see the NGC coins in person 100% of the time.
I brought two boxes of coins for sale... PCGS, NGC, a few old green&white label PCI and some Blue ANACS slabs... all sorts of coins from a few widgets to Morgans to Commems to Trade Dollars and type coins... showed to a number of dealers, mainly trying out folks I do not usually deal with...
NO interest at all with ANACS or the old PCI...they did not (except one dealer) even look at the coins in those holders. A few looked at the NGC's quickly BUT they all took time with the PCGS coins and those are what ended up selling. For the record, my prices on all the coins, was 10% back of bid.
Larry - Now that we've established that we're talking about your experience at Baltimore, let's analyze what happened to you.
First question: Before your potential buyers went through your boxes, did you tell them that everything was priced at 10% below Graysheet? If the answer is "yes", that would explain their behavior.
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Comments
<< <i>At the Baltimore Show many dealers refused to even consider NGC coins, it seemed to be PCGS only. Whats going on here? Not that i am complaining, i am a PCGS man, just curious >>
No plastic would stop me if the negotiated price was correct.
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
let's not let conjecture here get in the way of facts.
PCGS submissions are down 16, the only thing that is doing really well is world coins for PCGS submissions. That is according to the recent CLCT conference call thread i posted recently. World coin submissions are up over 70%!
NGC is doing quite fine due to the fact they are far and away the recognized leader in world coins with a near monopoly in scarce and rare world coins. With US coin submissions slipping badly for both services, the real business has to come from overseas. NGC is enjoying big business in this regard. While some dealers may want to play the plastic fantastic game for US coins, NGC as a whole isn't going anywhere.
the elephant in the room is the fact that PCGS's stock price is down 80%, and the company is bleeding money. Instead of futile "this TPG versus that TPG", i'm wondering why there hasn't been more concern about a possible liquidation of PCGS to shore up the company? What would selling off PCGS do to the value of PCGS graded coins, or to another point, the bankruptcy of Collector's Universe?
<< <i>
<< <i>All observations of odds and tendencies break down on an individual coin basis. I've had NGC upgrade PCGS coins and I've had PCGS upgrade NGC coins. >>
All observations of odds and tendencies break down on an individual coin basis...and the pops?
True but would you have done so if the pops were lobsided? And please elaborate!
Leo >>
I'm sorry - I don't understand your question.
BS&T
Ebay: + <waitin'> NEG: Chameleoncoins
NonBST/Ebay:
WTB: Toners, BU Darkside, Sovs & 20 Mark, LMU/SMU Gold.
<< <i>And here's another total for the NgC faithful;
On the silver nickels 1942-P to 1945-S, MS only, NGC has graded 35,240 nickels. 17,859 were graded MS66,
15,071 were graded MS67! Add the MS66, MS67 numbers plus the MS68 and the star designated coins we add another 398 certified coins and we have a grand total of 33,328 out of 35,240 that were graded MS66 and higher! Anyone want to take a gander on how many MS65 coins NGC has graded over the years it has been in business?????
It's only 766! >>
I don't have access to the PCGS pop reports at this moment (and too lazy to get my CC out to get it), but how about giving the complete picture? You're talking numbers without talking the total numbers on everything.
Let's say that NGC has graded 50,000 nickels in that time period, and 15,000, or 30% are MS67. Then let's say PCGS has graded 750 in MS67. What do the numbers look like if PCGS has only graded 3,000 nickels? That's 25%... doesn't look all that different...
If you're going to use the numbers to make your arguements, at least give the full picture. I know that there are more than a few areas (especially in moderns) where NGC has graded 3x, 4x, 5x as many coins, and more, than PCGS has. If you only look at how many in absolute numbers have been graded in a certain grade, you're not looking at the whole picture. You have to also look at the percentage of the overall total...
42/92
<< <i>I heard from several people that they've gotten stung by both services. PCGS had gotten so "stingy" that they now send everything to NGC. And some amazing stuff comes back: a 1892 B 50C that is a clear supernice 58 in a 62 holder. An impaired 1894 Morgan at best AU58 as a 61. Scares me off NGC holders I cannot return.
You should be scared off of ANY coin you cannot return............. there are dogs in PCGS holders too... they are out there...
42/92
<< <i>So now we have a series of posts about PCGS being "more strict" grading coins. That's all well and good, but obviously those saying so confess to being able to grade in the first place, which implies that the services of a third party wasn't needed by them in the first place.
Tens (or maybe hundreds) of millions of dollars have been spent on plastic. Not for the benefit of those who can grade, but for the benefit of those who prefer not to learn how to do so. >>
Regards,
John
1947-P & D; 1948-D; 1949-P & S; 1950-D & S; and 1952-S.
Any help locating any of these OBW rolls would be gratefully appreciated!
I am not sure why that is. Maybe just doing foreign grading longer.
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
JJ
I've never run into a dealer that has refused coins just because they are in NGC plastic... seems absurd to me. The dealers that matter will look at the coin first, then the holder. If the coin is PQ, there are enough dealers out there that'll pay full PCGS Guide prices for an NGC coin. And yes, there are most definitely dogs in both types of holders.
Michael Kittle Rare Coins --- 1908-S Indian Head Cent Grading Set --- No. 1 1909 Mint Set --- Kittlecoins on Facebook --- Long Beach Table 700
<< <i>It would be interesting for the members to go in on a group submission of common date classic coins in the MS63 to 64 range. We could pick 10 coins for submission and first submitt them to NGC. Record and photograph the coins in the NGC slabs and then crack and submitt them to PCGS and compare the grades. If ten different members each sent one coin to the submitter no one would be out 2 sets of 10 grading fees for the test. Once the test is complete, the owner would get the coin back in the final PCGS plastic. Granted 10 coins is a small sample to draw any concrete conclusions, but it would be enough to show some trends.
JJ >>
I've got several in my BST post that I've cracked from either PCGS or NGC. Would definitely volunteer one or more to play in the experiment... then we'd actually have 3 data points including the original grade which I already cracked the coin from... would be fun maybe if anyone else is interested.
Michael Kittle Rare Coins --- 1908-S Indian Head Cent Grading Set --- No. 1 1909 Mint Set --- Kittlecoins on Facebook --- Long Beach Table 700
<< <i>
<< <i>It would be interesting for the members to go in on a group submission of common date classic coins in the MS63 to 64 range. We could pick 10 coins for submission and first submitt them to NGC. Record and photograph the coins in the NGC slabs and then crack and submitt them to PCGS and compare the grades. If ten different members each sent one coin to the submitter no one would be out 2 sets of 10 grading fees for the test. Once the test is complete, the owner would get the coin back in the final PCGS plastic. Granted 10 coins is a small sample to draw any concrete conclusions, but it would be enough to show some trends.
JJ >>
I've got several in my BST post that I've cracked from either PCGS or NGC. Would definitely volunteer one or more to play in the experiment... then we'd actually have 3 data points including the original grade which I already cracked the coin from... would be fun maybe if anyone else is interested. >>
I have a coin or two also that I would volunteer for the experiment. I don't currently have submission privledges to either service, so some one else would have to do the submitting.
JJ
I mainly collect proof Liberty and shield nickels. I can find nice examples in both holders. I agree that PCGS has more precieved value, BUT it is kind of like Coke vs. Dr. Pepper with pepsi being ANACS.
I am going to start asking for the discounted NGC price from here on out!!!!!!
NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!!
working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
RIP "BEAR"
<< <i>At the Baltimore Show many dealers refused to even consider NGC coins, it seemed to be PCGS only. Whats going on here? Not that i am complaining, i am a PCGS man, just curious >>
As usual...off the original track of the OP we go...
Who grades better or worse is not really the issue... the perception of the general market place is the issue...
... the OP and I shared the ride to and from Baltimore and had alot of time to talk. We both experienced the same thing at the show...
DEALERS were reluctant, at best, to even consider NGC coins but were eager to look at and buy PCGS coins...
...and when they WILL consider an NGC coin it is usually at a significant discount to coins in PCGS holders. (Sure, they sell them at the same price...I imagine that could be because they might have more trouble selling NGC coins and find the PCGS coins tend to move faster).
Heck...most dealers will not even LOOK at ANACS coins (forget the rest of the TPG's) and to my experience, neither will most collectors. Even when the rare person does look, it is always with the question of "Will this cross to PCGS?" and "How much will you discount this coin?".
<< <i>Liquidity is king in a slow market. PCGS coins tend to be more liquid. >>
<< <i>At the Baltimore Show many dealers refused to even consider NGC coins, it seemed to be PCGS only. >>
No offense to the author of the original post. But we start off with a bit of completely unsubstantiated hearsay, and every one jumps to a bunch of conclusions that have probably no basis in reality.
I've only been collecting since the late 70's (ignoring my collecting as a kid), and I firmly believe if you take an overgraded, dipped and at'd coin to a decent dealer in a PCGS slab they won't buy that one either. We have already heard from one dealer that was buying NGC coins, so I guess all the theories are shot now.
My collection is a little heavy on the NGC side, probably 60/40 at present. Personally I don't notice that either one makes fewer mistakes than the other, I pass on plenty of coins in both holders, and I buy plenty in both holders.
World Collection
British Collection
German States Collection
<< <i>
<< <i>Liquidity is king in a slow market. PCGS coins tend to be more liquid. >>
But sometimes really really cheap isn't cheap enough.
<< <i>
<< <i>Liquidity is king in a slow market. PCGS coins tend to be more liquid. >>
Use an alt next time you want to agree with yourself.
Give me a “P”
Give me a “C”
Give me a “G”
Give me an “S”
What’s it spell? PCGS
Go Team!
"Keep your malarkey filter in good operating order" -Walter Breen
<< <i>Heck...most dealers will not even LOOK at ANACS coins (forget the rest of the TPG's) and to my experience, neither will most collectors. Even when the rare person does look, it is always with the question of "Will this cross to PCGS?" and "How much will you discount this coin?". >>
I've noticed this too and have found some bargains in ANACS holders. IMO, this is great news for collectors with patience.
<< <i>
<< <i>And here's another total for the NgC faithful;
On the silver nickels 1942-P to 1945-S, MS only, NGC has graded 35,240 nickels. 17,859 were graded MS66,
15,071 were graded MS67! Add the MS66, MS67 numbers plus the MS68 and the star designated coins we add another 398 certified coins and we have a grand total of 33,328 out of 35,240 that were graded MS66 and higher! Anyone want to take a gander on how many MS65 coins NGC has graded over the years it has been in business?????
It's only 766! >>
I don't have access to the PCGS pop reports at this moment (and too lazy to get my CC out to get it), but how about giving the complete picture? You're talking numbers without talking the total numbers on everything.
Let's say that NGC has graded 50,000 nickels in that time period, and 15,000, or 30% are MS67. Then let's say PCGS has graded 750 in MS67. What do the numbers look like if PCGS has only graded 3,000 nickels? That's 25%... doesn't look all that different...
If you're going to use the numbers to make your arguements, at least give the full picture. I know that there are more than a few areas (especially in moderns) where NGC has graded 3x, 4x, 5x as many coins, and more, than PCGS has. If you only look at how many in absolute numbers have been graded in a certain grade, you're not looking at the whole picture. You have to also look at the percentage of the overall total... >>
I guess I'm lazy too. Besides, why should I do everyone's homework? The numbers, 784 MS67's war nickels to NGC's 15,071 should say it all! Just compare the values. Ngc has cleverly reduced the value of any MS67 war nickels in their holders to face value. From past experience, I couldn't give them away! And I've had dealers trying to give them to me. They would say, take it, I want you to have it, you're a nickelman and I would refuse.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>All observations of odds and tendencies break down on an individual coin basis. I've had NGC upgrade PCGS coins and I've had PCGS upgrade NGC coins. >>
All observations of odds and tendencies break down on an individual coin basis...and the pops?
True but would you have done so if the pops were lobsided? And please elaborate!
Leo >>
I'm sorry - I don't understand your question. >>
Would you take into consideation the pops of NGC verses PCGS before attempting a crossover from PCGS to NGC? Of course you would. I guess it was a dumb question.....nevermind.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
Halfhunter06 - Being a PCGS man, I'm curious how it is that you had NGC coins to offer. Also, I wonder if you tried offering PCGS coins to the same people that didn't want your NGC coins, and if they bought them. Or did you just have NGC coins, and take their excuses and negotiating tactics at face value?
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
However, your statement calls your methods into question. Are you relying upon total pops to determine who is more strict? That seems silly for rarer classic coins where a single submission can skew the numbers.
No, you can look again. I made the comparison a few years back. The NGC % was <1% 66's of total submitted while PCGS was slightly >1%. But they were close. While PCGS had indeed graded 2X as many coins they had even less 65's than NGC. And the PCGS ratio of 65's to 66's was 2-1. The NGC ratio was 5-1. That lead to conclude that the NGC66 pieces might actually be fair buys at a discount to PCGS 66's. But the NGC 65's should probably be avoided.
It seemed like an anomaly at the 66 level...one of the very few in the entire silver type arena. Yeah, my methods were correct. With only 25 NGC 66's at that time vs 125 MS65's, that was an unusual ratio going from 65 to 66 where the standard was typically 2-1 or 3-1. I figured an MS66 trade dollar was one of NGC's last bastion of tightness. I stand by my methods. It may not be any more. I never did find one either at the time I was looking.
Yeah, I look at total pops only to make unfounded decisions.
roadrunner
<< <i>At the Baltimore Show many dealers refused to even consider NGC coins, it seemed to be PCGS only. Whats going on here? Not that i am complaining, i am a PCGS man, just curious
Halfhunter06 - Being a PCGS man, I'm curious how it is that you had NGC coins to offer. Also, I wonder if you tried offering PCGS coins to the same people that didn't want your NGC coins, and if they bought them. Or did you just have NGC coins, and take their excuses and negotiating tactics at face value? >>
Andy, as I said before, I went down there with Halfhunter... I brought two boxes of coins for sale... PCGS, NGC, a few old green&white label PCI and some Blue ANACS slabs... all sorts of coins from a few widgets to Morgans to Commems to Trade Dollars and type coins... showed to a number of dealers, mainly trying out folks I do not usually deal with...
NO interest at all with ANACS or the old PCI...they did not (except one dealer) even look at the coins in those holders. A few looked at the NGC's quickly BUT they all took time with the PCGS coins and those are what ended up selling. For the record, my prices on all the coins, was 10% back of bid. (Cleaning house, so to speak
I did, however, sell two NGC/GSA Morgans I had, besides the 40 other coins, to a dealer who "likes" them...
<< <i>I would give them an equal to or better than pcgs on the darkside....not so US.
I am not sure why that is. Maybe just doing foreign grading longer. >>
"market acceptance" plays a big role there.
NGC has a near monopoly on grading rare world coins. PCGS has certified only 5 world coins that have sold for six figures, NGC commonly has more than that in a single auction (US and foreign auctions). Plus, NGC has certified all of the seven figure world coins, PCGS has none. It isn't uncommon for a top pop world coin to be cracked out from a PCGS holder, and then sell for quite a bit more in the same (or lower) NGC holder. A half dozen of the Millennia Collection coins were former PCGS 'top pops' that were crossed to NGC. One in particular sold from the same auction house at another major event, only 5 months before Millennia in a PCGS holder. It was a former PCGS MS67 that was crossed to MS66 at NGC. Even being downgraded a point, it sold for over TWICE as much as it did 5 months before as an higher graded PCGS coin. For less expensive coins in the 3 figure and low four figure range, PCGS still has some traction with some country's coins; you get much past that point and it becomes a different story.
Yes, NGC has been at it for much longer, and the auction results bear it out.
<< <i>
<< <i>Heck...most dealers will not even LOOK at ANACS coins (forget the rest of the TPG's) and to my experience, neither will most collectors. Even when the rare person does look, it is always with the question of "Will this cross to PCGS?" and "How much will you discount this coin?". >>
I've noticed this too and have found some bargains in ANACS holders. IMO, this is great news for collectors with patience. >>
The problem I have, there's just too much crap out there to look at. It's just not feasable. If anybody wants to show me a coin they better be giving the touchdown signal that they have something of significance.
Otherwise, I'll need to pass. This is why I collect the coin by it's strike first. I can go through alot of coins faster that way.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
<< <i>Look again. NGC is NOT more strict on MS66 trade dollars. What you are probably seeing is the Seattle Hoard of 1878-S coins discovered in 1990. Grade inflation has led these kicking and screaming into MS66 holders.
However, your statement calls your methods into question. Are you relying upon total pops to determine who is more strict? That seems silly for rarer classic coins where a single submission can skew the numbers.
No, you can look again. I made the comparison a few years back. The NGC % was <1% 66's of total submitted while PCGS was slightly >1%. But they were close. While PCGS had indeed graded 2X as many coins they had even less 65's than NGC. And the PCGS ratio of 65's to 66's was 2-1. The NGC ratio was 5-1. That lead to conclude that the NGC66 pieces might actually be fair buys at a discount to PCGS 66's. But the NGC 65's should probably be avoided.
It seemed like an anomaly at the 66 level...one of the very few in the entire silver type arena. Yeah, my methods were correct. With only 25 NGC 66's at that time vs 125 MS65's, that was an unusual ratio going from 65 to 66 where the standard was typically 2-1 or 3-1. I figured an MS66 trade dollar was one of NGC's last bastion of tightness. I stand by my methods. It may not be any more. I never did find one either at the time I was looking.
Yeah, I look at total pops only to make unfounded decisions.
roadrunner >>
MS66 trade dollars are extremely rare. I have owned most of the top coins and I have a preference for PCGS so most were put in their holders. The only other group besides mine is the Seattle Hoard of 1878-S. I would say that between the two [appx 18 coins?] this accounts for any anomoly in percentages.
Your method breaks down with small populations. The huge variances from small hoards are too big.
If those are the pops at NGC, then NGC is way too loose on both grades. Just a little less loose on MS66's.
<< <i>With only 25 NGC 66's at that time vs 125 MS65's
If those are the pops at NGC, then NGC is way too loose on both grades. Just a little less loose on MS66's. >>
You can make no such assumption because you don't know how many coins are SUBMITTED to each service. Additionally, on some hoards, all the coins get "steered" to a specific grading service as part of a "marketing agreement."
I wondered the same thing, however the debate is nice to watch unfold.
It's always about the coin !
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
To help bolster their (pcgs) submission rates I would suggest they begin grading Tokens, Medals and So-Called Dollars.
The mass move to have Ngc holderd Tokens, Medals and So-Called Dollars to Pcgs holders would be a big boost to their submission rates.
I have worked on grading coins with both PCGS and NGC graders and let me say that NGC is in no way inferior to PCGS. NGC employs many distinguished and experiences people. In some aspects of grading I have even found NGC to be superior in their standards, such as determining what is a FBL Franklin Half. What I am talking about is the MARKET. The market has basically dictated PCGS as number 1 and NGC as number 2. This showed itself clearly at the recent Baltimore show and my question is WHY?
As I requested in my previous post, please give us more details about your experience in Baltimore. For those of us who did not spend the show in your shoes, it's hard to judge the WHY until we know the WHAT.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>This showed itself clearly at the recent Baltimore show and my question is WHY?
As I requested in my previous post, please give us more details about your experience in Baltimore. For those of us who did not spend the show in your shoes, it's hard to judge the WHY until we know the WHAT. >>
Hi Andy --- Please give Aki a pet from me...
I am sure that I must be typing with invisible ink... yet I have posted to this thread and another with details... I travelled with the OP to the show...I also had the same experience as Halfhunter and we discussed it...
Search thru this thread for some form of answer to your question...right after you asked it previously...
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>And here's another total for the NgC faithful;
On the silver nickels 1942-P to 1945-S, MS only, NGC has graded 35,240 nickels. 17,859 were graded MS66,
15,071 were graded MS67! Add the MS66, MS67 numbers plus the MS68 and the star designated coins we add another 398 certified coins and we have a grand total of 33,328 out of 35,240 that were graded MS66 and higher! Anyone want to take a gander on how many MS65 coins NGC has graded over the years it has been in business?????
It's only 766! >>
I don't have access to the PCGS pop reports at this moment (and too lazy to get my CC out to get it), but how about giving the complete picture? You're talking numbers without talking the total numbers on everything.
Let's say that NGC has graded 50,000 nickels in that time period, and 15,000, or 30% are MS67. Then let's say PCGS has graded 750 in MS67. What do the numbers look like if PCGS has only graded 3,000 nickels? That's 25%... doesn't look all that different...
If you're going to use the numbers to make your arguements, at least give the full picture. I know that there are more than a few areas (especially in moderns) where NGC has graded 3x, 4x, 5x as many coins, and more, than PCGS has. If you only look at how many in absolute numbers have been graded in a certain grade, you're not looking at the whole picture. You have to also look at the percentage of the overall total... >>
I guess I'm lazy too. Besides, why should I do everyone's homework? The numbers, 784 MS67's war nickels to NGC's 15,071 should say it all! Just compare the values. Ngc has cleverly reduced the value of any MS67 war nickels in their holders to face value. From past experience, I couldn't give them away! And I've had dealers trying to give them to me. They would say, take it, I want you to have it, you're a nickelman and I would refuse.
Leo >>
I'm not argueing your point about war nickels. I'm argueing the method of your arguements. You attempt to strengthen your arguements by only giving a partial look at the numbers without giving the full picture, and presenting it in a way to agree with your point of view.
42/92
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>And here's another total for the NgC faithful;
On the silver nickels 1942-P to 1945-S, MS only, NGC has graded 35,240 nickels. 17,859 were graded MS66,
15,071 were graded MS67! Add the MS66, MS67 numbers plus the MS68 and the star designated coins we add another 398 certified coins and we have a grand total of 33,328 out of 35,240 that were graded MS66 and higher! Anyone want to take a gander on how many MS65 coins NGC has graded over the years it has been in business?????
It's only 766! >>
I don't have access to the PCGS pop reports at this moment (and too lazy to get my CC out to get it), but how about giving the complete picture? You're talking numbers without talking the total numbers on everything.
Let's say that NGC has graded 50,000 nickels in that time period, and 15,000, or 30% are MS67. Then let's say PCGS has graded 750 in MS67. What do the numbers look like if PCGS has only graded 3,000 nickels? That's 25%... doesn't look all that different...
If you're going to use the numbers to make your arguements, at least give the full picture. I know that there are more than a few areas (especially in moderns) where NGC has graded 3x, 4x, 5x as many coins, and more, than PCGS has. If you only look at how many in absolute numbers have been graded in a certain grade, you're not looking at the whole picture. You have to also look at the percentage of the overall total... >>
I guess I'm lazy too. Besides, why should I do everyone's homework? The numbers, 784 MS67's war nickels to NGC's 15,071 should say it all! Just compare the values. Ngc has cleverly reduced the value of any MS67 war nickels in their holders to face value. From past experience, I couldn't give them away! And I've had dealers trying to give them to me. They would say, take it, I want you to have it, you're a nickelman and I would refuse.
Leo >>
I'm not argueing your point about war nickels. I'm argueing the method of your arguements. You attempt to strengthen your arguements by only giving a partial look at the numbers without giving the full picture, and presenting it in a way to agree with your point of view. >>
I could have simply said, Ngc has graded 15,071 war nickels MS67 to PCGS's 766! That alone would have said volumes. I strongly encourage any collector to do their homework on any grading service before having their coins certified. Or you may end up learning too late that you've paid too much to have a coin wrapped in a plastic that carries little or no value.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
Cy the Cynic says....................what up with big time dealers who have 80-95% of their coins on their site in NGC holders? Did they already sell the PCGS?
I'm no koolaid drinker but I do believe my own two eyes. You had better see the NGC coins in person 100% of the time.
<< <i>In my opinion NGC still remains harsher with bodybags. They've been just as tough as PCGS lately.
Given time, I think the coins graded during the present time period will be considered undergraded. >>
agree
Those numbers speak volumes!
Really?
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
NO interest at all with ANACS or the old PCI...they did not (except one dealer) even look at the coins in those holders. A few looked at the NGC's quickly BUT they all took time with the PCGS coins and those are what ended up selling. For the record, my prices on all the coins, was 10% back of bid.
Larry - Now that we've established that we're talking about your experience at Baltimore, let's analyze what happened to you.
First question: Before your potential buyers went through your boxes, did you tell them that everything was priced at 10% below Graysheet? If the answer is "yes", that would explain their behavior.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.