Is NGC having a turn for the worst?
Halfhunter06
Posts: 1,342 ✭✭✭
At the Baltimore Show many dealers refused to even consider NGC coins, it seemed to be PCGS only. Whats going on here? Not that i am complaining, i am a PCGS man, just curious
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The trick is to buy low in a NGC holder and cross it at the same grade, or better, to PCGS.
I know for a while that NGC seemed to grade gold coins much differently than PCGS, who's right I don't know I just know that coins with a specific grade usually had less wear in a PCGS slabs.
Collectors or dealers who know how to grade may be able to pick up some bargains in non-PCGS holders in the coming months.
in NGC holders and Overdipped and A.T. toned coins in PCGS plastic AND visa versa.
FWIW I have broke out coins from ANACS and Green label PCI holders and have them UPGRADE at both
PCGS and NGC.
Rule 1. Buy the coin NOT the holder
Rule 2. Buy the coin NOT the holder
Rule 3. go to Rule 1.
100% Positive BST transactions
And the switch to the pronged holders will likely hurt NGC big time because crossing the "prongers" to PCGS will very likely be very problematic, as PCGS can no longer determine if rim nicks are hiding under the prongs. Some dimwit over at NGC completely blew it on that score. A big part of submissions to NGC are tantamount to a "pre-screen"; ie. first see if NGC will grade it favorably, and then see if it crosses.
Once people realize NGC coins aren't going to cross at anywhere near the rate they used to, NCG submissions are going to fall off drastically.
and they're cold.
I don't want nobody to shoot me in the foxhole."
Mary
Best Franklin Website
my early American coins & currency: -- http://yankeedoodlecoins.com/
Given time, I think the coins graded during the present time period will be considered undergraded.
want more coin for the money, if they are to buy it. Soon ,
the market drops and collectors, then will only buy more coin for the
money. This has been repeated so many times for us old timers, that it
has become Holy Writ.
Camelot
I apologize if this doesn't match anyone's theories.
I agree that NGC can be harsh at times lately. I haven't sent any coppers to PCGS in the last 3 mths because they are out of this world strict on copper right now. I sent 20 coppers to NGC and got them last week, they BB two and severely ungraded most the others.
As I have seen dogs in both holders but I do see them more often in NGC slabs
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
<< <i>Most of the coins we bought at the show were in NGC holders.
I apologize if this doesn't match anyone's theories. >>
Stray data point, we know you buy the coin and not the holder so what you come out with is the stuff NGC got right or slightly better.
It also depends on the series, NGC just does not do justice to the series I collect.
roadrunner
<< <i>NGC is the most promoted, more so than PCGS >>
Really? With all due respect, on what planet have you observed this?
Yesterday, at Baltimore, many, if not most cases of slabs, there were seas of clear (PCGS) plastic. Other than key players with specialized interests that carry them and their coins beyond the plastic (such as CCU/CRO) the holder with the most juice is PCGS. It does not matter if I or anyone agrees that it should be that way...it just is.
<< <i>I agree that NGC can be harsh at times lately. I haven't sent any coppers to PCGS in the last 3 mths because they are out of this world strict on copper right now. I sent 20 coppers to NGC and got them last week, they BB two and severely ungraded most the others. >>
I don't suppose you want to post images of them?
<< <i>At the Baltimore Show many dealers refused to even consider NGC coins, it seemed to be PCGS only. Whats going on here? Not that i am complaining, i am a PCGS man, just curious >>
If any of these dealers had NGC coins in their display cases, you should have asked them how much of a discount do they sell their NGC for. I would have loved to hear their replies.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Those things are repulsive no matter what coin is in their claws.
It's not sad by any means. It's the fact that NGC standards in many areas became somewhat looser than PCGS over time. I've seen this in the type coin arena where I have to reject more NGC coins than PCGS coins. Simple fact imo. I won't pass on NGC coins, but will look at more to find the quality that I prefer to buy. Had we stayed with the standards initially put out in 1987-1988, the split today between the 2 services would probably be close to 50/50. Well it's not. And there are many reasons why it is no longer that way.
As a blind taste you have a pile of NGC and PCGS MS65 no motto halves to pick from. 10 of each selected at random from a pile of 100 pieces each. You have to buy 2 coins blindfolded. OK, so which coins do you pick from to ensure you have the best chance to maximize your dollar? For me the answer is very simple.
roadrunner
<< <i>The coin inside the holder has no idea who made the holder, or what the label says about the coin. If two coins look the same to me, and one is NGC and the other is PCGS, I'll take the one that costs less. It may bring less when I sell it, but so what, if it cost less to begin with? >>
Well put. You seem like you have a clue to this game. Some don't and cry like a baby once PCGS price guide values drop.
Buy the coin not the holder. But hell if there is a coin in a ICG, NGC PCGS holder that I like I'll buy it. SIlly little people stating one company is better than the other.
All I have to say nowadays is how is your mortgage lookin if you still have one.
<< <i>As an owner of around 80% NGC coins I do find PCGS coins graded more strictly on average. We can debate all day on just how much more strictly. It might be 55/45 or 60/40..those would be my estimates, at least in the type coin arena. The market prefers PCGS all things being equal as they are easier to sell, even if the NGC coin might be its equal or even a tad better (you have to be able to tell the difference first). One can have a very nice ANACS coin the equivalent of any PCGS coin in that grade and be unable to sell it...other than at a significant discount, especially with gold. I've experienced this a number of times. ANACS coins don't sell themselves, sorry. The fact that NGC coins experience some of that at times on lower end coins would come as no surprise to me. For identical PCGS and NGC coins it is easier to sell the PCGS coin at the same price. At least that's my experience. And I don't drink the Koolaid by any means considering NGC is mostly what I've bought over the past 20 years.
roadrunner >>
Beep! Beep! you go Roadrunner. Well put.
Camelot
I'd like to hear more specifics on your observation... what type of coins are we talking about? There are areas where NGC is generally looser and PCGS tighter, and vice versa.
I picked this puppy up at the show on Saturday... it's the only Charlotte type I didn't have... low grade, but a very wholesome example of the date.... and yes, it's in an NGC holder.
'dude
"As a blind taste you have a pile of NGC and PCGS MS65 no motto halves to pick from. 10 of each selected at random from a pile of 100 pieces each. You have to buy 2 coins blindfolded. OK, so which coins do you pick from to ensure you have the best chance to maximize your dollar? For me the answer is very simple"
I hope the answer is PCGS. With NGC, you have a stong change of getting an overdipped overconserved hairlined POS that was given the nod of approval to NOT go into a NCS holder.
<< <i>It may have been those new Pronged Beast Ngc holders that they were refusing.
Those things are repulsive no matter what coin is in their claws. >>
Believe it or not, those are beginning to grow on me. The worst thing about them, IMO, is that they wreak havoc on coin imaging.
<< <i>Quote from "roadrunner"
"As a blind taste you have a pile of NGC and PCGS MS65 no motto halves to pick from. 10 of each selected at random from a pile of 100 pieces each. You have to buy 2 coins blindfolded. OK, so which coins do you pick from to ensure you have the best chance to maximize your dollar? For me the answer is very simple"
I hope the answer is PCGS. With NGC, you have a stong change of getting an overdipped overconserved hairlined POS that was given the nod of approval to NOT go into a NCS holder. >>
<< <i>You seem like you have a clue to this game. >>
Fifty years as a collector gives me perspective. I collected coins before plastic, so learned about grading, etc. I still collect coins (despite the plastic), and don't need someone else's opinion of the grade, even when they guess right.
All grading is subjective, because it is performed by human beings. I'm always amused to overhear someone at a store or a bourse say something like "that's a nice MS63," or read posts here about re-submitting coins to get a new slab with a different number on it, as if the coin has changed, somehow.
And the strange thing is, every time that number changes is proof that the number on the label never meant anything in the first place.
my early American coins & currency: -- http://yankeedoodlecoins.com/
one, but that does not
mean that it is good for you.
Camelot
It really seems that this is a discussion that can take on a life of its own, go in circles and still end up with plastic and not what is in the plastic... very sad.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
I don't suppose you want to post images of them?
I don't like posting images of my personal collection - same with currency. Sorry, it's just a security kind of thing with me. Never know what can come back to haunt me. All I can tell you is that they are classic coppers from the 1800's. I have probably another 40 or so to get graded, but I am really wondering if I should just wait til one of the services becomes real again for coppers. My intent aren't to sell any of them, but two did get sold to a friend. My mistake though, it was actually 3 that got BB'd.
Of course, I might consider the same restriction regarding PCGS, however - I agree with roadrunner that the odds are certainly in that company's favor. NGC has completely different standards for classic coins - in proof seated dollars, for example, they can be a point and a half looser across the board. They also have the tendency to let washed out NCS'd crap filter into their regular holders. So yes indeed - despite Ken's protest to the contrary - the odds are soooo much higher.
Sad but true.
the following reasons:
1. Most collectors are unable to adequately grade
for themselves and must rely on TPG.
2. Perception as well as reality of TPG really do reflect
on the value of a coin and it's saleability.
3. The security of knowing that a TPG will stand behind
a coin that turns in a holder has great value to dealers and
collectors.
While the oft used phrase, "Buy the coin not the plastic" may
be a general truism, it may not be possible for many collectors
to do in the real world.
Camelot
Frankly, you'd be hard pressed to find any area of the coin market where NGC grades tighter as a rule. I recall going through the Pop reports about 3 years ago to find such areas, or better put, to find areas where they at least were comparable. Forget the moderns as PCGS blows NGC away in the post 1930's coinage. After spending a few hours looking I came up with MS66 trade dollars. That was about the only area I could find. In MS/PF type (18th, 19th, 20th century), copper, nickel, silver, gold, etc. it didn't matter. PCGS got the nod across the board. If you have different results please let us in on it.
roadrunner
PCGS is more strict on Bust Coinage, in Quarters and Halves in MS-64 and MS-65.
PCGS is more strict on Morgan and Peace Dollars in MS-65, MS-66 and MS 67 as well
as DMPL Morgans.
Camelot
(code) He!!, I've been doing that for years!
Does anyone remember these numbers I've posted (about a dozon times)? Well, here they are again!
And here's another total for the NgC faithful;
On the silver nickels 1942-P to 1945-S, MS only, NGC has graded 35,240 nickels. 17,859 were graded MS66,
15,071 were graded MS67! Add the MS66, MS67 numbers plus the MS68 and the star designated coins we add another 398 certified coins and we have a grand total of 33,328 out of 35,240 that were graded MS66 and higher! Anyone want to take a gander on how many MS65 coins NGC has graded over the years it has been in business?????
It's only 766!
Pcgs has only graded 784 MS67's war nickels to NGC's 15,071 !
Yes, I would definately question if NGC is or will ever get it right!
Recently, NGC has decided to make folks to pay to see their population report.
Take the above info seriously and keep your money. Or send me $25 for saving you hundreds!
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
<< <i>PCGS is more strict on Liberty Standing FH MS-66 and MS-67FH Quarters.
PCGS is more strict on Bust Coinage, in Quarters and Halves in MS-64 and MS-65.
PCGS is more strict on Morgan and Peace Dollars in MS-65, MS-66 and MS 67 as well
as DMPL Morgans. >>
PCGS is dramatically, stunningly, completely and thoroughly more strict on colonials. Of course, that doesn't mean that you won't see the very occasional exception, but it is not the way to bet.
Look again. NGC is NOT more strict on MS66 trade dollars. What you are probably seeing is the Seattle Hoard of 1878-S coins discovered in 1990. Grade inflation has led these kicking and screaming into MS66 holders.
However, your statement calls your methods into question. Are you relying upon total pops to determine who is more strict? That seems silly for rarer classic coins where a single submission can skew the numbers.
Tens (or maybe hundreds) of millions of dollars have been spent on plastic. Not for the benefit of those who can grade, but for the benefit of those who prefer not to learn how to do so.
my early American coins & currency: -- http://yankeedoodlecoins.com/
people do not have the ability or consistency to grade
coins in more then the most general nature.
Camelot
<< <i>All observations of odds and tendencies break down on an individual coin basis. I've had NGC upgrade PCGS coins and I've had PCGS upgrade NGC coins. >>
All observations of odds and tendencies break down on an individual coin basis...and the pops?
True but would you have done so if the pops were lobsided? And please elaborate!
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection