Counterfeit Coin and PCGS Holder on eBay.

commoncents05 · November 22, 2008 1:24PM

Link to eBay Listing.

-Paul

Tyler1924S · November 22, 2008 1:31PM

Agreed. Look at the year 1900. One of only several reasons.

Placid · November 22, 2008 1:31PM

Image of the real one with that cert number.

Link to real one.

garsmith · November 22, 2008 1:32PM

So why do you say it's counterfeit?

The cert number checks out, it lloks to me like someone is playing with photoshop to try to make the coin look toned. The logo color and coin color have been edited

Placid · November 22, 2008 1:35PM

<< So why do you say it's counterfeit?

The cert number checks out >>

PaleElf · November 22, 2008 1:35PM

Please school me... what makes this coin and/or holder counterfeit?

airplanenut · November 22, 2008 1:35PM

<< So why do you say it's counterfeit?

The cert number checks out, it lloks to me like someone is playing with photoshop to try to make the coin look toned. The logo color and coin color have been edited >>

Notice the coin posted above, and the one linked, are different coins... with the same serial number

Tyler1924S · November 22, 2008 1:36PM

Look at Placid's real example. They both have the same cert/serial numbers.

Type2 · November 22, 2008 1:38PM

Look at the nine it's longer at the tale.

PaleElf · November 22, 2008 1:39PM

<< Look at Placid's real example. They both have the same cert/serial numbers. >>

Got it! It also looks like there is a slight variation in the fonts on the inserts and the fake insert has a blue stripped tint to it.

Placid · November 22, 2008 1:39PM

Just look at the right end of the bar codes on the two slabs. Even if the coin changed in the slab the bar code would not have changed.

stevek · November 22, 2008 1:40PM

Weren't those "Chinese counterfeiters" and others counterfeiting both the coin and the slab?

garsmith · November 22, 2008 1:44PM

Ok, so does PCGS have some way of telling us which one is real and which is fake. Can they read the bar code from the image?

They have the most to lose if collectors cannot trust their slabs to be real, they need to get involved.

Placid · November 22, 2008 1:49PM

Here is a site with pictures showing what to look for.

commoncents123 · November 22, 2008 1:55PM

Isn't one rotated in the holder slightly? ..and the other isn't?

illini420 · November 22, 2008 1:57PM

unfortunately, all I need to see is that it is being sold from outside of the U.S. not worth the risk to buy from outside of the U.S. in any case as far as I'm concerned. too bad it has come to that...

Tyler1924S · November 22, 2008 1:59PM

Several more examples;

1. The "tall" barcode seen on many fake labels. Also, as Placid noted, different barcode pattern (while same cert #).

2. Edges purposefully cropped, yet we still see telltale signs this is one of the snap together counterfeit slabs. Look at formation (interlocking steps) at center left and right sides.

3. If we had a better pic of the fake, we'd also notice sharp edges of label viewing window. Edge of opening (real slab) will be rounded/beveled, corners indented. The fake will be crude & sharp with flash and burrs present in high quality pics.

Edited to add image.

stevek · November 22, 2008 2:34PM

Scary chit - and the scarier part is that the counterfeiters no doubt are going to get better at it.

GrumpyEd · November 22, 2008 2:37PM

Also looks like they tried to hide the PCGS loggo in the lower right corner of the holder with their photo loggo (since theirs was wrong or not there).

notwilight · November 22, 2008 3:29PM

<< Also looks like they tried to hide the PCGS loggo in the lower right corner of the holder with their photo loggo (since theirs was wrong or not there).

>>

Ebay adds that to the bottom right of all the photos they host. --Jerry

GrumpyEd · November 22, 2008 4:05PM

<< Ebay adds that to the bottom right of all the photos they host. --Jerry >>

Ohhhh

Still I wonder if the seller counted on it to block the loggo because the loggo is missing.

And don't the snap together ones have a different loggo in that corner?

The question I have is why would the seller fake it so badly? If he sends a snap together the buyer will know it. If the seller sends nothing he could just use a lifted photo. LOL maybe crooks aren't smart!

Gemini · November 22, 2008 6:27PM

The coin photo on this fake is taken further away from the camera and slightly out of focus compared to the other coins he has for sale which have nice images.

golfer72 · November 22, 2008 8:15PM

And another problem. No CAC sticker.

PerryHall · November 22, 2008 8:40PM

<< Isn't one rotated in the holder slightly? ..and the other isn't? >>

You can't use this as an indicator of authenticity since real coins sometimes rotate in real holders.

Coxe · November 22, 2008 9:59PM

Now just wait until PR69 and MS69 modern crap starts popping up in cert verifiable PR70 and MS70 holders. That market, not that I think they entirely deserve it, will fall apart. Cannot even fix it with imaging the coins. How can something qualify for a perfect 70 grade if the TPG can identify a defect to validate it later? And even if a tiny nick here or ther eis market acceptable, the labor of capturing and discriminating it in such detail would be too much to keep people in it all. This is a big threat to our sponsor and to the market in those things.

frnklnlvr · November 22, 2008 10:04PM

On the real one, the 1900 on the insert is farther left.
Has anyone reported this to Ebay yet?

Coxe · November 22, 2008 10:11PM

<< On the real one, the 1900 on the insert is farther left.
Has anyone reported this to Ebay yet? >>

I doubt eBay would do a thing about it. Looks real to them. And even if they would check the tag at PCGS, and doubt they do, it would be sufficient for them. In their defense, there is only so much depth the hobby can expect from them. This would be a tough one from their perspective to justify cancelling a sale.

frnklnlvr · November 22, 2008 10:13PM

<< 

<< On the real one, the 1900 on the insert is farther left.
Has anyone reported this to Ebay yet? >>

I doubt eBay would do a thing about it. Looks real to them. And even if they would check the tag at PCGS, and doubt they do, it would be sufficient for them. In their defense, there is only so much depth the hobby can expect from them. This would be a tough one from their perspective to justify cancelling a sale. >>

This is one reason I don't buy from sellers outside the U.S.

derryb · November 22, 2008 10:31PM

Here's a simple "report item" form just posted in a similar thread:

Simple Ebay Report Item Form

frnklnlvr · November 22, 2008 10:44PM

I reported it to PCGS with a link to this forum. I figured they would be able to do more about it than anyone else could.

Halfhunter06 · November 22, 2008 10:47PM

guys, look at the bar code, they are not the same. That slab is a counterfeit no doubt

darktone · November 22, 2008 10:57PM

could this lead to the undoing of the grading companies?

notwilight · November 22, 2008 10:59PM

<< 

<< On the real one, the 1900 on the insert is farther left. Has anyone reported this to Ebay yet? >>

I doubt eBay would do a thing about it. Looks real to them. And even if they would check the tag at PCGS, and doubt they do, it would be sufficient for them. In their defense, there is only so much depth the hobby can expect from them. This would be a tough one from their perspective to justify cancelling a sale. >>

They would believe PCGS. This should be reported to PCGS.

notwilight · November 22, 2008 11:03PM

<< Now just wait until PR69 and MS69 modern crap ..... >>

Coxe,
They seem to be more interested in their counterfeit industry. Modern bullion and commemorative coins need to be worked in basicly a clean room. They don't have that. Also, on their counterfeits, they have almost no money tied up just labor. The would have to buy 69s for your scheme which can be quite a bit of money with PMs where they are. You might consider editing out your post lest you give some Onshore criminal a new idea for a business plan. --Jerry

PawPaul · November 22, 2008 11:06PM

at first I thought they were the same coin - but the bar code's are different !

Ebay should yank this auction without delay , and seriously punish the seller .

Good work by some of you pointing out this fake

boucharda · November 22, 2008 11:06PM

<< guys, look at the bar code, they are not the same. That slab is a counterfeit no doubt >>

I agree the barcode is different but how many collectors have the same coin with the same PCGS number to compare bar codes before buying???

razzle · November 22, 2008 11:08PM

Paul,
Thank you for this post. I've read the thread and you and Tyler have given examples of what is wrong with this listing. I'm wondering, though, what first tipped you off about this one? I agree with those who say it is "scary" that counterfieters are this good, and that ebay probably could do nothing even if notified.

MisterBungle · November 22, 2008 11:12PM

Does anyone have a barcode scanner hooked
up to their computer??

I would be curious as to what that barcode
has to say, since it is different from the original.

~

PawPaul · November 22, 2008 11:15PM

.i gotta think if ebay is informed the item is fake and they do nothing ; then they are accomplices to fraud and could be criminally charged -

hopefully by the legal team @ PCGS .

TavernTreasures · November 22, 2008 11:18PM

Excellent thread. But scary.

notwilight · November 22, 2008 11:19PM

<< .i gotta think if ebay is informed the item is fake and they do nothing ; then they are accomplices to fraud and could be criminally charged - hopefully by the legal team @ PCGS . >>

How does ebay know it is fake? If has a legitimate looking slab to them. They don't have experts. They can't believe every report they get as they do get many bogus reports. That is why PCGS needs to contact them. --Jerry

PawPaul · November 22, 2008 11:30PM

good point Jerry -but they could pull the auction on suspicion and protect themselves from liability ........

suppose someone calls in a bomb threat ; ( there are fake bomb threats made all the time )

they have no bomb experts on premise ...............

but I bet they sure as hell evacuate the building

Hussulo · November 22, 2008 11:32PM

I've always said the Chinese counterfeit slab threat is the biggest threat the TGP's are or have ever faced.
The counterfeiters are getting to good and it's getting hard for Joe Bloggs in the street to tell them apart. This could ultimately bring the TGP's crashing down.

I personally like the new idea of the "Genuine" holders by PCGS, but just think when the Chinese counterfeiters start putting fake coins into "Genuine" holders! the colour of the coin might look wrong, it will be hard to examine the coin in the holder and most might think the coin doesn't look right because it's been cleaned etc.., but it is in a "Genuine" holder so it is probably OK.

UTTM07 · November 23, 2008 12:09AM

Do the genuine holders have a unique serial and bar code?

oldwestgold · November 23, 2008 12:10AM

<< 

<< Now just wait until PR69 and MS69 modern crap ..... >>

They seem to be more interested in their counterfeit industry. Modern bullion and commemorative coins need to be worked in basicly a clean room. They don't have that. Also, on their counterfeits, they have almost no money tied up just labor. The would have to buy 69s for your scheme which can be quite a bit of money with PMs where they are. You might consider editing out your post lest you give some Onshore criminal a new idea for a business plan. --Jerry >>

They aren't turning 69's into 70's but they are supposedly counterfeiting gold bullion including gold eagles, with tunstun cores. All this counterfeiting can only get worse

segoja · November 23, 2008 12:28AM

ANOTHER ONE OF THOSE LET ME COUNT THE WAYS THAT THIS AUCTION LOOKS BOGUS.

LETS HAVE SOMEONE BUY THE COIN, PAY WITH PAYPAL, THEN FILE A COMPLAINT THE COIN IS BOGUS WITH PAYPAL

MAYBE PCGS WOULD BE HAPPY TO HELP OUT WITH SOMETHING LIKE THAT

Shamika · November 23, 2008 12:40AM

How on earth did Placid get an image of the real slab? Incredible!

Placid · November 23, 2008 1:55AM

<< How on earth did Placid get an image of the real slab? Incredible!

>>

Seems most of the fake slab cert numbers are taken from Heritage arichives so I just looked there.

Grats to commoncents05 for spotting it on eBay.

lcoopie · November 23, 2008 2:32AM

Is there a similiar NGC counterfeit holder problem?

(thanks for this valuable thread)

Tyler1924S · November 23, 2008 2:40AM

<< Seems most of the fake slab cert numbers are taken from Heritage arichives so I just looked there.

Grats to commoncents05 for spotting it on eBay. >>

Like this one.

19Lyds · November 23, 2008 2:58AM

<< 

<< So why do you say it's counterfeit?

The cert number checks out >>

>>

The bar codes are different as well.

Counterfeit Coin and PCGS Holder on eBay.

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