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Is PCGS grading tougher suddenly?
lkeigwin
Posts: 16,895 ✭✭✭✭✭
At the coin show this weekend (Santa Clara) I talked with more than a dozen collectors and dealers and each of them had strong words about PCGS grades today. Seems everyone thinks PCGS is being very harsh.
Is this real or perceived? If real, why is it so?
We often say if a high-end coin is raw there must be a reason. Be careful. It seems many dealers today are offering very nice raw coins, unslabbed, because it is a bad time to submit. I found myself drawn to the unslabbed PQ stuff and bought a few wonderfully toned CBH's and IHC's. I'd like to submit them but maybe I should wait? (Pix coming.)
Is this real or perceived? If real, why is it so?
We often say if a high-end coin is raw there must be a reason. Be careful. It seems many dealers today are offering very nice raw coins, unslabbed, because it is a bad time to submit. I found myself drawn to the unslabbed PQ stuff and bought a few wonderfully toned CBH's and IHC's. I'd like to submit them but maybe I should wait? (Pix coming.)
Coin Photography Services / Everyman Registry set / BHNC #213
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PCGS is #1 because of this....respect it and profit from it!!!
<< <i>It's real, not perceived. CAC made the services tighten up. Wait a year or so and hopefully they'll be more lenient. >>
Agreed.
<< <i>This mantra will never change.
PCGS is #1 because of this....respect it and profit from it!!! >>
Except--from my experience--NGC has been more tough lately.
That said, your very right in suggesting to be careful buying raw, especially the pitfall of buying a coin with altered surfaces.
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
I don't mind them tightening somewhat but to the degree they are grading now my money is better left in my pocket.
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
real cause to celebrate $labs
SOOOOOOOOOOOO glad all of my coins are $lab free.
K S
<< <i>
<< <i>This mantra will never change.
PCGS is #1 because of this....respect it and profit from it!!! >>
Except--from my experience--NGC has been more tough lately. >>
Steve
In memory of the USAF Security Forces lost: A1C Elizabeth N. Jacobson, 9/28/05; SSgt Brian McElroy, 1/22/06; TSgt Jason Norton, 1/22/06; A1C Lee Chavis, 10/14/06; SSgt John Self, 5/14/07; A1C Jason Nathan, 6/23/07; SSgt Travis Griffin, 4/3/08; 1Lt Joseph Helton, 9/8/09; SrA Nicholas J. Alden, 3/3/2011. God Bless them and all those who have lost loved ones in this war. I will never forget their loss.
circulating coins is a different animal. i think they tightened up but i would not want it any other way. if they overgraded consistently they would not command a higher price at time of sale compared to NGC/ANACS slabs(remember, a NGC70 is really a PCGS69
At NGC, I've recently received lower grades than expected and multiple bodybags for coins that showed "staining," which looks to me like localized spots or heavy toning. There are plenty of coins slabbed by NGC and PCGS in previous days that exhibit these kinds of spots, including some in my collection. If the standards have changed, shouldn't the de facto standard-setters share them with us? I suppose they have, though in an indirect, painful, and expensive way.
To me, the tightening of standards appears to be an attempt to enhance the TPG's reputation by devaluing, at least in the short term, newly submitted coins. You can repeat "buy the coin, not the holder" all you want, but this devaluation does affect coin prices: rarely does a PQ MS64 sell for MS65 money, for example. As others have pointed out, such inconsistency is also frustrating because it undermines the ability of collectors to master grades and grading as practiced by TPGs, impacting both buyers and sellers. Kool-Aide drinkers should be concerned, too: their formulas about the grade on that TPG grade being equal to this TPG grade minus one may also be invalidated.
Tight, loose, whatever: just give us consistency.
<< <i>so what you dudes are really saying is that pcgs & ngc have changed their grading standard, making them even more inconsistent then they used to be.
real cause to celebrate $labs
SOOOOOOOOOOOO glad all of my coins are $lab free.
K S >>
heh.
and here i am thinking the over grading, market grading if you will,
has trained everyone here to think their coins are higher grades then
they are..
when in reality... PCGS taught you how to overgrade and are now
going back to the original standard of grading back in the day.
but KS has a better point.
what was a 65 is now a 63-64. i am shocked! not.
Epi-CAC.
<< <i>There seems to be plenty of anecdotal evidence, provided by posts both here and ATS, that PCGS and NGC are tightening. And many dealers have noted the same thing; for example, in his March 2008 Baltimore Show Report, Warren Mills of Rare Coins of New Hampshire stated: "In fact we at RCNH as well as many national dealers that we do business with have already seen a marked tightening of grading standards at PCGS and NGC."
At NGC, I've recently received lower grades than expected and multiple bodybags for coins that showed "staining," which looks to me like localized spots or heavy toning. There are plenty of coins slabbed by NGC and PCGS in previous days that exhibit these kinds of spots, including some in my collection. If the standards have changed, shouldn't the de facto standard-setters share them with us? I suppose they have, though in an indirect, painful, and expensive way.
To me, the tightening of standards appears to be an attempt to enhance the TPG's reputation by devaluing, at least in the short term, newly submitted coins. You can repeat "buy the coin, not the holder" all you want, but this devaluati I completon does affect coin prices: rarely does a PQ MS64 sell for MS65 money, for example. As others have pointed out, such inconsistency is also frustrating because it undermines the ability of collectors to master grades and grading as practiced by TPGs, impacting both buyers and sellers. Kool-Aide drinkers should be concerned, too: their formulas about the grade on that TPG grade being equal to this TPG grade minus one may also be invalidated.
Tight, loose, whatever: just give us consistency. >>
Well said, MrScience! I completely agree.
I croseed more than 40 early Lincolns in the last few months (most in NGC slabs, many cracked out, a few three times due to BB's and silly low grades and color-calls). I'd slap my head a lot. Especially aggravating are some of the RD --> RB downgrades.
Okay, I thought, why not submit some already-PCGS-slabbed RD's that are clearly RB by these tighter standards? Ask for a downgrade and take advantage of PCGS's excellent copper guarantee?
So I sent in an OGH 1912 63RD that was more BN than RD and RB at best, covered with carbon spots. The grader at PCGS wrote in pen on a sticky label attached to the holder "has enough original red in spite of spotting, okay for MS63". <sigh> I've won more arguments with my ex-wife.
<< <i>Why do some believe that PCGS will "loosen" up on their grading standards at some point in the future, just curious? >>
Because it's a cyclical thing that they do.
<< <i>
<< <i>Why do some believe that PCGS will "loosen" up on their grading standards at some point in the future, just curious? >>
Because it's a cyclical thing that they do. >>
If it's a cyclical thing, where are all the threads concerning "how loose the TPG's are grading lately"?
and they're cold.
I don't want nobody to shoot me in the foxhole."
Mary
Best Franklin Website
The "grade guarantee" has to be maintained at an economically safe level.
And who in their right mind would want to guarantee anything but a SUPERIOR FOR THE GRADE coin?
I would not crack out any previously slabbed PCGS coins as I would bet they will not grade equivalently today.
It's just further proof that "market" grading exists and always has.
Great!
It just makes PCGS coins more desirable.
I'm liking the new PCGS President more each day.
Someone coin a TLA (three letter acronym)?
as a buyer I would be jumping for joy that freshly graded coins I buy are really a grade point higher
The target has always been moving. No standard really stays constant. Graders cannot be expected to grade exactly the same from week to week, no one here probably does.
There are lots of swilly coins running around in rattlers, ogh's, and other early holders. And they will stay in those holders until some vacuuous newbie cracks it out in hopes of an "upgrade." NCS and PCGS have forever changed the market on the acceptance of dipped and lightly cleaned coins. In the 1980's there was much more forgiveness given to an original gem coin that had slightly negative eye appeal due to deeper toning. Today, those mint state coins are net graded down a point. Different era with a different mind set.
Let's all time warp back to the recession of 1981-1982 when it took a superb gem coin (65+ or 66) to fetch a CDN "gem" price. That was the way the market discounted the drop in real value. They didn't change the price lists much, just the quality that was acceptable. There are so many coins already graded by both major TPG's (tens of millions) that what few go through with tighter standards today has little overall effect on their total market risk. The risk is already there with what has already been graded. There is no effective way to diminish that risk (ie the derivatives of the coin market).
roadrunner
The submission I just got back,which was mercury dimes before 1930, had very good if not outstanding results. Two coins graded higher than what I thought they would and the other one was spot on with what my opinion was.
Ken
<< <i> Who wants to submit to a moving target?
Epi-CAC. >>
The most important point made to this thread.
<< <i>so what you dudes are really saying is that pcgs & ngc have changed their grading standard, making them even more inconsistent then they used to be.
real cause to celebrate $labs
SOOOOOOOOOOOO glad all of my coins are $lab free.
K S >>
Oh, come on, Dork - you gotta just sip A LITTLE of the Koolaid
Check out my current listings: https://ebay.com/sch/khunt/m.html?_ipg=200&_sop=12&_rdc=1
Epi-CAC. >>
The most important point made to this thread.
All grading opinions represent constantly changing opinions: PCGS, NGC, and even CAC. That's because the company the coins keep, the submissions prior to yours, the overall confidence or pessimism in the market, the source and/or pedigree of the coins, the particular graders grading that day, how tired or alert your graders are, etc. all play a role in the moving target of "objectivity." The services have proven to be no more than an average 60-90% accurate or repetitive in their opinions over the past 20 years. And the higher end of that range was achieved in the late 1980's. If one cannot live with such a standard then don't submit and don't buy slabbed coins unless your choices stand alone cracked out of the plastic.
roadrunner
Yes and no, they started to get tougher a while ago, and I'm of the opinion it's related to two factors. First, a change in graders, which I believe occurred about 1-2 years ago. Second, less than six months ago, they stopped grading MS coins with no/low luster above 64 (which may explain old green or first generation holdered Peace dollars going down two points).
<< <i>In which sector has the tougher grading appeared? Is it circulated coins,mint state coins,modern coins,classic coins or all coins? Lets hear from the submitters that that think thier sector has got tighter.
The submission I just got back,which was mercury dimes before 1930, had very good if not outstanding results. Two coins graded higher than what I thought they would and the other one was spot on with what my opinion was. >>
The high grade (MS64 and up) Lincolns seem to be tougher in both grade and color.
I have been happy with AU grades and below on CBH's, Peace dollars, and SLQ's. FWIW.
I hope CAC accomplishes what they were designed to do, weed out the overgraded TPG coins. I just hope the Chinese counterfeiters do not start with the CAC stickers.
to have MS-65 graded coins actually be MS-65 graded.
Of course, that might be too tough to handle. I can remember
in my early years, about a half century ago, true MS-65 coins
then would easily grade MS-66 to MS-67 today. How times
have changes.
To all things there is a season and
to all grading there is a time that is
always transient.
Camelot
I feel that we will always differ on grading assessment, but if we are confident in our grading skills and really like a coin we will be happy with our purchases.
Camelot
I had been happy with PCGS on circ grades except copper. Do not submit copper - they are being nutz right now, beyond nutz from my impression, although personally just one on me, but spoke to others about it.
BTW, I just got 18 copper coins back from NGC on Friday, 2 BB'd and the others they graded INSANELY tight. All Lge cents.
here`s one example. i got 10 more if you need `em
tighty whitey
Maybe were headed to a day that we are buying PCGS slabbed coins with knowledge they were graded at a particular time period when things were "soft" or "tough." The era of April-December 2008 was a "tough" grade time and therefore the coins are more in demand. Coins graded from June 2007-March 2008 were a "soft" time and those coins are of lesser value.
Buy the coin, not the holder is a good rule. Selling the coin without the proper grade on the holder is the problem. We need a consistent grading standard.
President, Racine Numismatic Society 2013-2014; Variety Resource Dimes; See 6/8/12 CDN for my article on Winged Liberty Dimes; Ebay
<< <i>I think they have reacted to CAC and want to grade every coin with confidence CAC will approve.
Maybe were headed to a day that we are buying PCGS slabbed coins with knowledge they were graded at a particular time period when things were "soft" or "tough." The era of April-December 2008 was a "tough" grade time and therefore the coins are more in demand. Coins graded from June 2007-March 2008 were a "soft" time and those coins are of lesser value.
Buy the coin, not the holder is a good rule. Selling the coin without the proper grade on the holder is the problem. We need a consistent grading standard. >>
well consistency only matters when you slice up grade increments into
huge price jumps. if a 64 cost a few bucks less then a 65 it would simply
be up to the buyer to pick the one they like the best. I think you know
what i mean. 64 and a 65 are interchaneable price wise... but this
is not the case today and often have huge price jumps.
buttttt since the coin market is focused on grades, the higher the
better, PCGS (tpg) will always be the determiner of the coins value.
i would like to see MS broken up into 4 categories myself.
61 63 65 67. If the coin is not a 65 lump it into the 63 category... stop
the nonsense of slicing things up into small increments which can never
be consistent and make it easier on the graders. with ease of grading
you might just get consistency. After all this is done with other grades
why not MS? good question eh? 50 53 55 58!
throw in 69 for ultra moderns. no 70 BS.
i have noticed a trend of people saying 65.8 for example which is the
peak of folly in my mind and they should be chastised for it. how humorous a concept.
in other hobbies they can barely handle 1-10 yet coin collectors with
egos bigger then a room think they can do a 700 point scale.
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