reasons for matte proof traits?
Numiscent
Posts: 46
Hi Guys,
I am so interested in matte proofs that I occasionally save a business strike or two that have similar traits, but which I assume are not proofs. I was wondering if anyone takes notice of these same type of coins. Sometimes there are matte surfaces combined with square rims, like this 1911 I have pictured. Other times I actually find diagnostics from proof dies, like this die crack from a 1909 I saved. I realize some dates, such as 1915 and 1916, were sometimes struck with very sharp dies that have a granular appearance, but I'm talking about traits that go beyond that. The square rims on this 1911 physically feel sharp to the touch. Are there answers out there to these mysteries?
Thanks,
Tom
(1911 reverse picture above)
(1909 Die Crack below shoulder extending to rim at both ends of crack)
I am so interested in matte proofs that I occasionally save a business strike or two that have similar traits, but which I assume are not proofs. I was wondering if anyone takes notice of these same type of coins. Sometimes there are matte surfaces combined with square rims, like this 1911 I have pictured. Other times I actually find diagnostics from proof dies, like this die crack from a 1909 I saved. I realize some dates, such as 1915 and 1916, were sometimes struck with very sharp dies that have a granular appearance, but I'm talking about traits that go beyond that. The square rims on this 1911 physically feel sharp to the touch. Are there answers out there to these mysteries?
Thanks,
Tom
(1911 reverse picture above)
(1909 Die Crack below shoulder extending to rim at both ends of crack)
0
Comments
-Paul
I previously found no diagnostic matches from the Albrecht publication on my 1911 that I pictured above, but referencing the link posted, I did just now find a few "hints" of diagnostics to my surprise.
-The mark coming out of the L in Liberty seems to be there.
-I can sort of make out a curved mark against the 9, but that may be a stretch.
-Another possible sighting but possibly me just seeing things is a trace of that gouge up by the G.
If I am really seeing them, traces of diagnostics might indicate that this obverse die was used for business strikes. It could also mean that this is a matte proof, but I would doubt it. I see what look like flow lines radiating outward in the obverse field rather than the sandblasted look alone. And the mint luster has the cartwheel affect more like a business strike.
One diagnostic my coin does not have is the mark inside the Y. This is very easy to spot on a 1911 matte proof I have, yet I see no trace of it on this coin pictured.
What I'm really interested in is that die crack on the 1909 I pictured that is apparently identical to the crack on certain proof obverses. This coin has rounded rims, nothing like that of an MPL. I know what they look and feel like from handling numerous raw matte proofs, which is unfortunately something that can't be experienced from inside a slab. The surface s very textured like that of a proof, but the coin is also likely cleaned, so I can't tell what to make of the frosty look. I seriously doubt anyone would call it a proof, but the "proof" lies right there in the die crack. My hypothesis is that this is indeed an example of a proof die used for business strikes. I don't have answers though, only observations and questions.
Tom
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- Bob -
MPL's - Lincolns of Color
Central Valley Roosevelts
then with proof dies being used under circulation pressure/strike process with circulation planchets producing circulation proof like lincolns
will a tpg ever designate "pl" as morgans...who knows...probably not
i still think wide rims tell us something as to which dies were used as clearly there are wide and narrow rims
the challenge is in any info slung should be traceable to mint record archives or it's simply spectulation which even applies to the books on them...how much of the information in those books traceable to mint records?
Regards,
Duane
There are a few problems with your die marker analysis: The curl you referred to against the 9 is evident in early die states. The gouges you mentioned are evident in mid-die states, and the weaker gouges are evident in later die states. If your gouges are indeed weak and present, you would never see the small curl near the 9. It was gone once the gouges appeared strong during the mid-die states. Probably no matter, since it was a stretch to say that you saw them in the first place.
Sometimes, even when you know that one of these die lines MUST be present, they are difficult to see, thanks to distracting things like luster and toning patterns.
Now, since the gouges you may or may not see above GOD are indeed weak, this may fit with your theory that the proof dies were then transferred to MS production after the run of proofs. If the presses were indeed correctly calibrated, and the planchets were correctly aligned, you would probably get a PL strike, as is evident on your coin. Sadly, this really does nothing for the value of your coin in the general marketplace. Somebody might be willing to pay a premium for that coin if all the markers indicated use of proof dies in the making, but the holder will always say MS64BN, so other than an interesting study piece, it holds very little actual value over an MS64BN coin. Personally, I would like to own the coin as a raw piece if indeed I could compare it to proofs I own and count similarities.
Regardless, Great Coin!
Empty Nest Collection
Matt’s Mattes
<< <i>Do you actually have a 1909 with that die very crack, or did you get that photo from another source?
Regards,
Duane >>
Duane,
That photo is from a coin I have. I told you about that on the phone one time, when we were discussing the possibility of proof dies used for business strikes. Here it is to see, or at least a detail of it.
Tom
http://numiscent.com
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One caution about markers is that certain areas tend to get cracks that look similar.
I'm not saying this crack looks like your 1909 (different placement) it's a marker from another coin. Many lincolns have cracks on the shoulder (near VDB on later ones) so you might get tricked by similar cracks. Look very close at the exact placement of yours compared to known MPLs or listed diags, it can be very similar but still different.
Example in same general area:
Will the real Matte Proof please stand?
The 1909 MPL with the die crack below the bust is called "obverse 2". The photo that I have of "obverse 2" shows a more pronounced die crack that runs from the bottom of Lincoln's bust to across the edge rim. There are also short die gouges above L in LIBERTY and die polish by TY in LIBERTY.
From what I see, the above 1909 is not an MPL.
The 1911 is most likely NOT a matte, IMHO. The "Y" in LIBERTY usually has a little extra metal filling the gap in the top recess of the letter. The rims look 'off' to my eye, as well. Uneven around the circumference of the coin. Even the strike looks MS-like. I'm not convinced. The first "1" in 1911 has what appears the be a small die chip, but other then that, Bob, I'm not seeing it.
I'll have to look at the 1909 under magnification again, but for now, after comparing the picture I posted the the Albrecht picture, I have to agree that it appears to be a different break path than the one documented on certain proofs.
Thanks to RWB for the advice on picking up the Lange book. Certain things about the Albrecht booklet leave me scratching my head, wanting to see more.
Actually, all the members who have responded to my thoughts so far since I've joined this forum are all very helpful. I am glad to have joined the community. Now if only I can find a way to get work done!
Tom
http://numiscent.com
email me
<< <i>Now if only I can find a way to get work done! >>
Good luck on that. I barely had enough time to get my honey do list done.
- Bob -
MPL's - Lincolns of Color
Central Valley Roosevelts
1. All working dies were made the same way and are of the same quality.
2. Production dies were hardened and sent to the press room for use by the coiner.
3. Production dies were used in high-speed presses set at the minimum pressure (approx 60-80 tons/sq inch for cents) required to produce a well struck coin. Approximately 200,000 coins could be struck from a new die before it lost sharpness or cracked and had to be replaced. However, some dies lasted only a few hundred strikes before failing or being damaged.
4. Matte proof dies were sandblasted, then hardened and sent to the medal press room for use by the coiner.
5. Matte proof dies were used in low speed, high-pressure hydraulic presses at a pressure (approx 100 tons/ sq inch for cents) selected to bring up the maximum detail of the dies. Approximately 1,000 coins could be struck from a new die before the matte surface began to show flow lines and other deterioration sufficient to withdraw it from proof use. Sometimes proof dies lasted longer and sometimes they failed after only a few strikes.
6. Matte proof dies could not be refinished for proof use, but could be put into use for making production coins.
These two factors – die surface and strike pressure – are the primary causes of differences between a proof and non-proof coin.