The MYSTERY of the old dollar sample slabs has been SOLVED!
oreville
Posts: 12,148 ✭✭✭✭✭
There is has several mysteries regarding NGC silver dollar sample slabs and old NGC and PCGS slabs in general!!
I interviewed the founder of NGC (JA) who was around when the NGC sample slabs were made.
He stated:
(1)These sample silver dollars were usually submitted by dealers in rolls (more often Peace dollars than Morgans) to NGC upon special request to have them put into sample slabs for their customers. There were only a handful of dealers that did this. This was not an advertised program.
(2) ALL NGC insert tags were light brown colored. The green bordered NGC insert tags resulted from DISCOLORATION of the light brown insert tags from exposure to light and was NOT originally made as green bordered insert tags!!!! WHOA!!!! ANYONE KNOW THAT?
(3) The lack dots seen in the corners of each insert tag was indeed a cutting guide to trim all of the insert tags when they were cut using an old fashioned cutting board machine. We did suspect on this board that this was the case.
(4) The 99999999-001 to 99999999-025 merely represents the number of silver dollars submitted on a submission sheet to the grading service. The old submission sheets had up to 25 coins that could be submitted per sheet. The first coin in the specific submission sheet would be xxxxxxxxx-001 and the last one xxxxxxxxx-025. They have no special meaning in themselves so #001 is no more important than #025. The coins usually would be the same for at least 20 coins submitted as that was a full roll with the rest being a different coin from another roll, but not always. Occasionally they were just odds and ends or leftovers from various rolls.
(5) The official estimates that a total of between 500 to a maximum of under 1000 of these slabs were ever created. That would make them of a lower "original mintage" than either the black NGC slabs or the all white NGC insert tag slabs but apparently more of them may have been saved than the black or all white NGC slabs.
Regarding old PCGS slabs:
(1) It has been scientifically shown three times that the "yellow" PCGS slabs from the early 1990's were formerly early green PCGS insert tags which faded from green to yellow over time with exposure to lighting!
(2) A unscientific survey of old slabs by this writer has determined that the PCGS doily holders are disappearing the fastest of the old, still available slabs and this writer speculates will soon be totally gone from dealer tables within the next two years.
(3) The old PCGS slabs with the double shell construction and without the PCGS lettering on the insert tags may soon approach incredible scarcity status. They are no longer around to be found at dealer tables except by total accident.
Any comments or request for clarification certainly pm me.
edited for better Engish
I interviewed the founder of NGC (JA) who was around when the NGC sample slabs were made.
He stated:
(1)These sample silver dollars were usually submitted by dealers in rolls (more often Peace dollars than Morgans) to NGC upon special request to have them put into sample slabs for their customers. There were only a handful of dealers that did this. This was not an advertised program.
(2) ALL NGC insert tags were light brown colored. The green bordered NGC insert tags resulted from DISCOLORATION of the light brown insert tags from exposure to light and was NOT originally made as green bordered insert tags!!!! WHOA!!!! ANYONE KNOW THAT?
(3) The lack dots seen in the corners of each insert tag was indeed a cutting guide to trim all of the insert tags when they were cut using an old fashioned cutting board machine. We did suspect on this board that this was the case.
(4) The 99999999-001 to 99999999-025 merely represents the number of silver dollars submitted on a submission sheet to the grading service. The old submission sheets had up to 25 coins that could be submitted per sheet. The first coin in the specific submission sheet would be xxxxxxxxx-001 and the last one xxxxxxxxx-025. They have no special meaning in themselves so #001 is no more important than #025. The coins usually would be the same for at least 20 coins submitted as that was a full roll with the rest being a different coin from another roll, but not always. Occasionally they were just odds and ends or leftovers from various rolls.
(5) The official estimates that a total of between 500 to a maximum of under 1000 of these slabs were ever created. That would make them of a lower "original mintage" than either the black NGC slabs or the all white NGC insert tag slabs but apparently more of them may have been saved than the black or all white NGC slabs.
Regarding old PCGS slabs:
(1) It has been scientifically shown three times that the "yellow" PCGS slabs from the early 1990's were formerly early green PCGS insert tags which faded from green to yellow over time with exposure to lighting!
(2) A unscientific survey of old slabs by this writer has determined that the PCGS doily holders are disappearing the fastest of the old, still available slabs and this writer speculates will soon be totally gone from dealer tables within the next two years.
(3) The old PCGS slabs with the double shell construction and without the PCGS lettering on the insert tags may soon approach incredible scarcity status. They are no longer around to be found at dealer tables except by total accident.
Any comments or request for clarification certainly pm me.
edited for better Engish
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I thought #4 was common knowledge. Or at least to regular submitters who can't help but notice their coins bear the same initial 7 digits and the last 3 digits are in numeric order from how you listed them on the submitting form.
Edited to clarify color changing tags at each service.
Chance favors the prepared mind.
This is the double shelled PCGS slab described in my paragraph #3:
NOTE: THIS IS NOT A SAMPLE SLAB!!!
Per Conder101: "PCGS 2 This was the first attempt by PCGS to increase the security of their slabs. This is a two piece slab. The center part is the same small "rattler" shell seen on PCGS 1 (note the four alignment pins in the corners around the coin). The second part is a plastic border thatwraps around the edge of the slab and forms the raised lip that now lets the slabs stack and interlock. Other security measures taken were the addition of a barcode to the front label and a hologram to the back label. This was also the last variety that did not have the companies initials on the front label. The front label is off white with a green tinge to it. This faint green is formed by thousands of tiny green dots that are only visible under magnification. This variety was used in Oct and Nov of 1989."
Dang, I didn't know that, thanks for posting.
Number 2 is news to me also, yet another let down.
Herb
<< <i>4) The 99999999-001 to 99999999-025 merely represents the number of silver dollars submitted on a submission sheet to the grading service. The old submission sheets had up to 25 coins that could be submitted per sheet. The first coin in the specific submission sheet would be xxxxxxxxx-001 and the last one xxxxxxxxx-025. They have no special meaning in themselves so #001 is no more important than #025. The coins usually would be the same for at least 20 coins submitted as that was a full roll with the rest being a different coin from another roll, but not always. Occasionally they were just odds and ends or leftovers from various rolls.
Dang, I didn't know that, thanks for posting.
Herb >>
I have known this for a very long time, as was stated in this thread on the Registry forum, so when I find an NGC coin that has a particular variety or that I particularly like, I make note of the submission number and roll the dice on purchasing other coins with that same number. I think it betters my odds as scooping up varieties.
The name is LEE!
You sure about that? When I clicked on the link it took me to an argument about whether NGC coins should be allowed in the PCGS Registry.
I don't mean to de-rail this from it's original 'old dollar' track, but a little help on this would be appreciated.
- Jim
Those holders are probably the equivalent to the NGC all white label holders with the reverse NGC logo on the reverse stamped on the white core INSIDE the holder. Those are just as rare and probably significantly less than 50 exist today.
But the picture is important to make sure that you are speaking of the right holder.
CLARIFICATION EDIT: THE PCGS SLAB I AM REFERRING TO ABOVE IS THE PCGS 3.5 AS THE 3.5 LABEL IS LATER THAN THE 2.5 LABEL. VERY POORLY WORDED STATEMENT ABOVE.
THE PCGS 2.5 LABEL IS ALSO SCARCE BUT AS MANY AS 100 TO 200 OF THEM MAY STILL EXIST.
If someone could tell me how to post it directly without a lonk, I'd appreciate that immensely! Thanx!
Guess I figured it out all on my own! Such a HEPPY DAY! lol
But then again, I could send in this rattler, as it's a solid 65 all day too.
Conder101 did refer to it in his thread:
<< <i>........transition piece between #2 and #3. They appeared to have used the exact same font on both varieties so there are no clues there. But yours is the first #2 reported with the PCGS at the top of the front label. However it has the serial number starting even with the left edge of the bar code. All of the #3's I've seen have the barcode shifted to the right with the serial number starting well left of the barcode. Take a look at the backgrund of the label and let me know id it is made up of thousands of tiny green dots. These dots are not visible to the naked eye (at least not mine). I have to use at least a 5X magnifier to see them clearly. If the dots are there then the only difference between #2 and your is the PCGS on the label and that would indicate that it was probably made in late November of 1989. Potentially this could be a very scarce variety. (If it becomes available let me know.)...... >>
As I stated earlier, I have only seen 6 of them since these were made in 1989. I do have two of them. You will have a lot of pm's I suspect looking to buy your slab!
As far as the 2nd piece you posted, the one that looks like a rattler and yet you indicate there is a newer logo/hologram? I have never seen one. I do not think PCGS ever made that transitional piece and I will bet that the old rattler label insert was used on a reholdering request for a PCGS 2 slab with the outside shell now removed. Of course, that is my speculation but if I am wrong then you might be onto something very very special.
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Looks like the average rattler reverse:
I dont think the rattler is anything special, just using it as a coin that I can send in for the upgrade without ruining a rare slab. Though, if my imaging abilities were better with the laptop and 'cybershot', well, I dont think I could do the coin justice, and I would think on any given day it COULD be a 66. The rattler I am convinced will come back as a 65, which would give me a uniform, untoned set of '53 P-D-S Washington Carver in PCGS 65. Can't beat MS65's with a mintage of 8,003....there are only 38 P's higher, all 66's (and I know, eventually, that rare slab coin will come back as a pop-top 66), and only 27 D's higher (all 66 also). I have been picking these 1953 P & D's every chance I get....I'll take the 63's when offered, but prefer the 64's/65's. The MS64 P & D's almost always seem to come in older holders. I am by NO means a commem guy, little knowlege, but DID styudy them,and learned to grade them (never looked at any other year, as it was the final year of the total breakdown of commems, where a bum off the street could get a commem made for him. It seems that the '48-'51 Booker T's sport 6 and 7,000 mintages, they are usually going for strong money, yet when a '53 P OR D comes up, theres no realtive action. I may delve into those years, hopefully finding undergraded examples (yeah, right)or TRY to find 'em raw (yeah right again). But, then again, if the prices are crazy for those dates in MS64, then I'm happy with that one set I already have. And I used to make fun of, and 'pshaw' those last few classic commemorative programs.
Thanks, Oreville, I had confidence PLUS that the 'double shelled', 'very rare' slab '53-P would come back 66, it's just way too nice, mark-free, gleaming to be a 64, and if it didn't 66 the first time, second time it would have.. Having a top pop coin with a mintage of 8,003 would be WAY cool, as I don't have millions to spend. I am your average collector with the average budget-NOT MUCH!!! lol
Now, if those offers Oreville predicted I'd get start rolling in, perhapsI'd consider it.......
b]Oreville, any idea what they are worth, those 'double shell' slabs (just ballpark is ok, if you know?
This Regency slab, Danny Kaye pedigree only went for $260!!!
This is kinda fun having something that is rather rare (dare I say OUTRIGHT rare?) And, before I go, I had another one with a Roosie dime, MS64. Didn't sell it, can't find it, so...hopefully I find that one.....this really is kinda cool that I have something others want because of its rarity....usually, I am on the outside looking in!
Fortunately for those who like those extremely rare holders (the PCGS 2A transitional piece that you showed us) there seems to be very little demand right now as no one is really aware of them. It is too hard for most collectors to remember to look for them and remember the exact configuration of the double shelled holder. It seems to be more of a fun pure thing of the hunt rather than there being a ready market for them. Too abstract to get anypne excited. Plus they are TOO RARE meaning isolated which means it would be too time consuming for anyone to make a market in them.
Interestingly, the more common PCGS 2 slab gets more interest since they have no PCGS lettering on the label even though they are more common (but not all that common). Also the PCGS doily holders draw more interest because they are so different looking.
I had offered the owner of the Danny Kaye regency holder Israeli coin $275 because that was all it was worth. The seller wanted to try his chances on getting more on ebay as other board members felt it was worth more. Unfortunately once a rare slab has a foreign coin in it, demand drops off like a cliff. True, the Danny Kaye set was really interesting and I would like to have one, the value is limited since those who were big Danny Kaye fans back in the 1950's and 1960's are fading away into the sunset. The younger generation does not even know who he was and does not care either. Now, if a US coin had been in that regency holder it would have been worth at least $500 if not more.
The PCGS Regency (with US coins in them) and the NGC black holder are fast approaching a separate collectible status of their very own! If one is found without a coin in it they still would be worth a ton.
<< <i>4) The 99999999-001 to 99999999-025 merely represents the number of silver dollars submitted on a submission sheet to the grading service. The old submission sheets had up to 25 coins that could be submitted per sheet. The first coin in the specific submission sheet would be xxxxxxxxx-001 and the last one xxxxxxxxx-025. They have no special meaning in themselves so #001 is no more important than #025. The coins usually would be the same for at least 20 coins submitted as that was a full roll with the rest being a different coin from another roll, but not always. Occasionally they were just odds and ends or leftovers from various rolls.
Dang, I didn't know that, thanks for posting.
Number 2 is news to me also, yet another let down.
Herb >>
That truth should have been self evident.
I suspected that was the case.
(4) The 99999999-001 to 99999999-025 merely represents the number of silver dollars submitted on a submission sheet to the grading service. The old submission sheets had up to 25 coins that could be submitted per sheet. The first coin in the specific submission sheet would be xxxxxxxxx-001 and the last one xxxxxxxxx-025. They have no special meaning in themselves so #001 is no more important than #025. The coins usually would be the same for at least 20 coins submitted as that was a full roll with the rest being a different coin from another roll, but not always. Occasionally they were just odds and ends or leftovers from various rolls.
I've paid moon money for the 001 samples.
(3) The old PCGS slabs with the double shell construction and without the PCGS lettering on the insert tags may soon approach incredible scarcity status. They are no longer around to be found at dealer tables except by total accident.
Have a pic of one of these by any chance?
thanks for the report, good stuff.
Herb
Sorry about the glare/blur, but took quick pics for examples to answer ibzman's question.
I'm glad to see this pop back to the top of the forum.
I checked my old slab box and I have 3 of the PCGS 2 slabs, only one of the PCGS 2.5 slabs and four of the PCGS 3.5 slabs (one of which is a sample).
I do still see examples of these slab types from time to time at shows - mostly for sale without a "slab premium".
Still haven't seen a doily slab with an inexpensive coin in it yet, though.
Interestingly, the rattler slabs are still available - I have three.
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<< <i>ibzman, I believe these are the slabs that oreville refers to, without the PCGS at the top.
Sorry about the glare/blur, but took quick pics for examples to answer ibzman's question. >>
I have one like those 3, it is a 82-s Morgan. I have also seen from photos examples where the year is dropped lower so it is near the bottom or inserts where the series name is on the slab.
<< <i>lookin for a cheap coin in a doily? (not for sale)
TEASE!
Only one week left...
Great thread Oreville. I don't know how it missed it originally.
All doilies are OFFICIALLY gone from the dealer cases!
So now PCGS has something to crow about.
PCGS now has the NGC black slab surrounded with the PCGS regency slab and the PCGS doily holder!!
Could be an interesting race to the top.
Who would have ever thought at the beginning of slabdom in 1986 that the best gains would be made by inexpensive coins in R5 plastic?
roadrunner
<< Friday October 24, 2008 10:05 AM
Are we talking about 2 types of NGC slabs here? Cause mine are 199999 not 99999999. >>
Did I stump the experts or what?