If authors don't make a dime on numismatic books, why not go with a big publisher, to at least get b

Longacre · October 22, 2008 12:20AM

I think I have accepted the fact that no numismatic author makes a dime off of his numismatic books. Personally, I think that is tragic, but I guess that is the way it is. Assuming this is true, I was wondering why numismatic authors don't work with the BIG numismatic multi-national conglomerate publishing houses. If an author is going to lose a ton of money with the book, he might as well lose a ton of money, but take advantage of the publishing house's distribution channels, and get his book into Borders, Barnes & Noble, and other big box stores.

I suppose that the author might lose some autonomy when working with a big conglomerate (probably getting barked at occasionally by a cigar-chomping, corner office sitting corporate executive), but that might be an acceptable price to pay for a much wider distribution of your book. What do you think?

NHSBaseball · October 22, 2008 12:25AM

I am not sure that the big publishing houses have a great deal of interest in numismatic literature.

The only way that I can see authors making any money off their books is by setting aside a large number of them at the time of publication and selling them on the market after the book is out of print and brings a large premium. For example, when I tried to run down a copy of the Wiley-Burgart Seated Half reference, the lowest price I could find was $400.

mgoodm3 · October 22, 2008 1:16AM

Why would the man (big publishing houses) even care to look at the unwashed masses (numismatic books)?

mgoodm3 · October 22, 2008 1:19AM

Secondarily, why would the man (Barne's & Noble, Border's) even care to look at the unwashed masses (numismatic books)?

guitarwes · October 22, 2008 1:42AM

What basis are you assuming that they wouldn't make any money on their books? Is this a known fact?

-wes

Longacre · October 22, 2008 1:47AM

<< What basis are you assuming that they wouldn't make any money on their books? Is this a known fact?

-wes >>

Everyone says that the sign of a wildly successful numismatic book is if it loses less money than the book written before. Is that not true?

jfoot13 · October 22, 2008 2:04AM

<< 

<< What basis are you assuming that they wouldn't make any money on their books? Is this a known fact?

-wes >>

Everyone says that the sign of a wildly successful numismatic book is if it loses less money than the book written before. Is that not true? >>

Are you confusing wildly sucessful and wildly profitable? Like fine art profits seem to go up with the death of the artist.... most are willing to defer profits..

guitarwes · October 22, 2008 2:31AM

<< Everyone says that the sign of a wildly successful numismatic book is if it loses less money than the book written before. Is that not true? >>

Who is Everyone? Are they of any relation to "They"?

I really don't have a clue as to whether it's a slightly profitable journey to write a piece of numismatic literature, I'm just playing devil's advocate. I guess the biggest thing would be coercing a publishing company to print your coin book while telling them that it's gonna be really, really good and sell alot of copies.

Unless of course you have really deep pockets and foot the entire bill yourself........???

-wes

firstmint · October 22, 2008 2:32AM

I believe the last numismatic book that was published by a big publisher (other than Whitman) was Breen's 1988 Encyclopedia, which was originally published by Doubleday.

Dentuck · October 22, 2008 2:52AM

Longacre, there's an article entitled "How to Succeed in Numismatic Publishing (By Really Trying)" in the latest issue of The Asylum. This will answer all of your questions!

Coinosaurus · October 22, 2008 3:12AM

Looking forward to Dentuck's article.

LA, the obvious answer is that big publishers are looking for sales of 5K copies and up. Most specialized numismatic books get print runs of less than a thousand copies, and even then the authors (assuming they are self published) will have boxes in their basement for a few years.

RWB · October 22, 2008 5:23AM

A publisher is in business to make a profit. The greater number of copies that can be sold, the lower the per-book cost and the greater the potential profit. Highly specialized books, particularly in sideline areas of interest such as numismatics, have small, diffuse audiences. This makes it difficult to sell enough copies – even in big box stores – to be profitable. As numismatic books become more segmented by specialty, their potential reader base shrinks. A recent new book of capped bust quarters might easily have a total buyer base of 700 people. Add a few specialized libraries and sale of 1,000 copies would suggest enormous market penetration.

Turning your pampered manuscript over to a publisher can be very difficult to do, and is always accompanied by compromises and “things I wish ‘they’d’ done better.” But it also frees the author to do other things and to not spend what is left of the family fortune on color printing and advertising.

firstmint · October 22, 2008 6:04AM

ahhh, the pampered manuscript...the heart of every book.

What RWB said about turning it over is true. An author spends countless hours writing, reviewing, editing, adding, changing, deleting, tweaking, polishing, etc. that in some ways it's a relief to finally be finished with it.

The final presentation is what appears in book form, which is where the author and publisher strive to make a compromise.

In a way, I will feel lighter when I come to the end of the "John Ford & Franklin Hoard" project that I have been working on for over a decade. This kind of research can't be found in tradtional places, such as the National Archives. It has to be uncovered from bits and pieces, where the thread can run very thin at times.

Hopefully, after reviewing a draft, some large publisher in the numismatic arena will think it is worthy of being printed.

CarlWohlforth · October 22, 2008 6:17AM

As the grandson of a publisher and the son of a writer I can tell you it is all about shelf space. Why, back in the day, there were loads of mom and pop book stores. They could specialize. They had room for a title that other stores may not put out. They had the inclination to show a book they liked regardless of mass appeal.

When B&N and Borders put most of the little guys out of business the diversity of titles diminished. Publishers won't talk to you unless you can sell tens of thousands of copies. In that case you might get to talk with a junior, trainee publisher. Of course if you are a Rowling or S. King you get the red carpet treatment. All this to say authors don't go to big publishers because the big publishers are not interested and won't let them in the door.

Barry · October 22, 2008 7:25AM

<< Everyone says that the sign of a wildly successful numismatic book is if it loses less money than the book written before. Is that not true? >>

Is this the same "everyone" who says dealers' margins are barely 1-2% ?

pennyannie · October 22, 2008 7:33AM

I have 26 duplexs, 11 mobile homes and a few lots. 95 percent capacity or higher most of the time. My accountant says i do not make any money either.

johnsim03 · October 22, 2008 8:04AM

I don't understand - wider distribution of a book?!

Big publishers probably do not publish numismatic books because there is not a lot of profit in them. It is a business
like any other, except with lower profit margins...

The way to publish nowdays is POD (Publish On Demand). Books are available on Amazon, B&N, and other online
outlets. Very little up-front cost. Books are printed as orders come in. You don't even need a publisher to produce/sell books,
just like you don't need a record company to publish your music CD.

I have published many books, on my own, using POD or self-publishing. Sales keep plugging along, even after years
since the book's publication.

Most authors who go the DIY route don't care how many books they sell - they just care how much they need to sell
to break even on expenses. Getting nice reviews and recognition is important, too (of course).

You gotta look at what kind of niche it is you are working with (mine was/is the game of chess), find the market, and
promote, promote, promote.

How many numismatic titles are published each year?

I'm just guessing, but I would say that sales of 2-5K total in the lifetime of the book would be considered a raging
best-seller. Most niches are like that... I get excited when I sell 500 copies of my chess books...

Major publishing houses don't care much for sales figures in that range. They might heavily promote a book that
has little prospect for sales if they expect to sign the author to a contract, or, you are talking about someone already
well-known, i.e., famous in the field. Or, if the work is so historically significant that it simply must be published, that
is another reason.

Most authors do not write for money. They write because they have to!

John

Halfsense · October 22, 2008 8:48AM

The House of Collectibles, an imprint of publishing giant, Random House in New York City, has successfully marketed and sold numismatic books over the years, including the just-released update by Scott Travers, "The Coin Collector's Survival Manual, Sixth Edition." (The book was even mentioned today in a Bloomberg column by personal finance writer, Jane Bryant Quinn.) Random House also just published a book by former ANA President, David Ganz, "America's State Quarters," that looks back at the astoundingly successful ten-year program and looks ahead to future commems.

-donn-

Quarternut · October 22, 2008 9:20AM

The bottom line is...promotion costs money and if the book does not have a large enough audience to sell to, it will not be profitable to print 1000's of copies that you can't sell. Big publishers are in it to make money (as perhaps everyone who is in business should be). And for the esoteric or small buying base type of books, which numismatic books fall into, there is just not enough profit to make it attractive for the big publisher to get involved.

POD (publish-on-demand) is certainly a possible way to go, but for those who have not checked out the costs, they are rather high per book ($35 and up depending on page count and type of binding). That is just the cost of the printing and binding and does not include shipping the finished books or promotion, copyrighting, IBSN or other incidental costs.

A recent new book of capped bust quarters might easily have a total buyer base of 700 people. Add a few specialized libraries and sale of 1,000 copies would suggest enormous market penetration.

Hence my decision to only do an initial print run of 900 copies for the book! As all of the initial costs came directly out of my pocket, it also became a matter of "what can I afford to sit on until they are sold" as well…

The fact that Longacre keeps stating, that no numismatic author makes a dime off of his numismatic books, is true if you take into consideration all of the years of time and research that went in to writing it, but you can and should be able to make a small amount of money against the costs to have it printed when you sell a copy. Seems fair to me...!

QN

pennyannie · October 22, 2008 10:45AM

I did not realize how much some of these limited produced books cost. $495.00 plus postage for a signed book seems high and should produce a few bucks profit. The regular version is 89.00 dollars plus shipping. A 1000 copies will return over 100k if all sold. Surely a quarter or 2 will be made even with a 50 percent sell thru. My wife has been doing genealogy for years and i had 60 copies of it printed and bound for a gift to her. The cost of that was not much. Of course i could not sell a copy of that even as a fire starter.

If longacre would write a book i would buy the first copy. Of course the legal mumbo jumbo would probably take up the first 100 pages of the book.

johnsim03 · October 22, 2008 10:54AM

<< The House of Collectibles, an imprint of publishing giant, Random House in New York City, has successfully marketed and sold numismatic books over the years, including the just-released update by Scott Travers, "The Coin Collector's Survival Manual, Sixth Edition." (The book was even mentioned today in a Bloomberg column by personal finance writer, Jane Bryant Quinn.) Random House also just published a book by former ANA President, David Ganz, "America's State Quarters," that looks back at the astoundingly successful ten-year program and looks ahead to future commems.

-donn- >>

Most of those types of arrangements are done on a subsidized basis, i.e., the author has a guaranteed subscriber list, or is so famous because of previously-published works, or, the imprint is a small publisher who has an arrangement with the giant to use the imprint to help improve sales. Or, the author pays the publisher up-front. These can be nice deals, and most authors would love to have that opportunity. Few and far between in the real world...

All IMHO, of course.

John

Quarternut · October 22, 2008 12:06PM

<< I did not realize how much some of these limited produced books cost. $495.00 plus postage for a signed book seems high and should produce a few bucks profit. The regular version is 89.00 dollars plus shipping. A 1000 copies will return over 100k if all sold. Surely a quarter or 2 will be made even with a 50 percent sell thru. >>

The $495 is for a special leather bound copy, one of only 38 produced. Believe it or not, there is very little profit involved. I only considered doing them because so many collectors requested they be done.

As to the 1000 copies producing 100K if all sold...I am sorry but your math is wayyyyyyy off!

First of all there are only 900 that were printed.

Second, the percentage of books that are sold at full retail price is low. I offered a pre-publication deal at $79 (which included free shipping), 131 were sold this way.

Over 250 more were sold wholesale to dealers at various prices based on the quantity they purchased (I could have sold several hundred more if I would have sold them at my cost).

Several copies were given away for free, including a copy to both the ANA & ANS libraries.

Even after selling 481 copies (more than half the quantity printed), I still have not recovered my printing costs yet...

Yeah, I am raking the money in!!!!

QN

firstmint · October 22, 2008 12:37PM

I have often wondered why there is no collective semi-annual list of available numismatic publications presented as a free service to those who might be interested. Probably because everybody and every organization that could, doesn't want to fund such a service and benefit to collectors.

I have spoken to officers of the Numismatic Bibliomania Society and hopefully, they will present a list of specialty clubs and the periodicals from those clubs in the near future. At least that would be a good start.

It is a real shame that research and scholarship take a back seat in this collective billion dollar a year "hobby". Because of this poor attitude, collectors in this country will forever be a ripe-for-the-picking commodity by those who are well read.

Coinosaurus · October 22, 2008 12:44PM

<< 
Yeah, I am raking the money in!!!!

>>

QN-

Glad to hear you are doing so well. How about a few "review copies" for your fellow authors

The other thing to keep in mind is research cost - to me half the fun is poking around in archives and so forth. The flip side is that you typically have to fly there and cover the usual travel expenses. There are books that can be done without archival research, but that would not be nearly as interesting, albeit much less pricey.

mgoodm3 · October 22, 2008 1:04PM

For me, the work of making a book is fun. Any money I get out of it is gravy.

My second project is a money pit. You wouldn't believe all of the toys that I need to take high magnification images.

Edit: I bought a book off of lulu.com recently. Interesting site. You send them a PDF version of your book and they offer it for sale. They print on demand.

Longacre · October 23, 2008 1:46AM

In anticipation of Dentuck's article (which I cannot wait to read), maybe I am misunderstanding the role of a publisher. Yes, I know that they assign an editor to you to help with the manuscript, pamper you in every way, and cater to your whims. However, I look at a publisher mainly as a distributor, sort of like a car manufacturer that has a car dealer network. The publisher prints the books, and then takes advantage of its distribution channels/relationships to get the books out there into the market.

For example, when I go to Barnes & Noble, I see a bunch of Whitman books there. I don't think they get there by accident. Whitman must have a deal with B&N. My point in the original post is that if a numismatic author is going to lose money, he might has well sign up with a Whitman or other publishing house, in order to increase his chances of the book being on the shelves of Borders, B&N, etc.

Am I not understanding how the process works?

CoinRaritiesOnline · October 23, 2008 1:59AM

<< In anticipation of Dentuck's article (which I cannot wait to read), maybe I am misunderstanding the role of a publisher. Yes, I know that they assign an editor to you to help with the manuscript, pamper you in every way, and cater to your whims. However, I look at a publisher mainly as a distributor, sort of like a car manufacturer that has a car dealer network. The publisher prints the books, and then takes advantage of its distribution channels/relationships to get the books out there into the market.

For example, when I go to Barnes & Noble, I see a bunch of Whitman books there. I don't think they get there by accident. Whitman must have a deal with B&N. My point in the original post is that if a numismatic author is going to lose money, he might has well sign up with a Whitman or other publishing house, in order to increase his chances of the book being on the shelves of Borders, B&N, etc.

Am I not understanding how the process works? >>

Yes -- I think there is a misunderstanding.

I'm no expert, but to B&N (or any bookstore), their shelf space is what they have to sell. If they consume 50 feet of shelf space nationwide on a specialty numismatic book, and sell only 13 inches of books over the course of a year, they have not used their most valuable resource wisely. They know this, and therefore they want to stock their precious shelves with the books that will turn over quickly and make them the most profit possible.

Who can blame them?

The #2 chain (Borders) is near bankruptcy -- they are in a very tough business.

Coinosaurus · October 23, 2008 2:41AM

<< 
My point in the original post is that if a numismatic author is going to lose money, he might as well sign up with a Whitman or another publishing house, in order to increase his chances of the book being on the shelves of Borders, B&N, etc.
>>

LA - certainly, if that is an option it is not a bad way to go. That way an author can just focus on research and let the publisher deal with the editing, graphics, production, distribution, etc., and everyone can do what they do best.

RWB · October 23, 2008 2:51AM

Retailers want to "turn" their inventory a certain number of times per year. They want books that will contribute to that turn rate. Most specialized numismatic books do not do this. they sit on shelves too long. Stores will happily order a copy for you, but they won't carry them in stock. (An anecdote: one Washington area B&N store manager wanted to stock my Renaissance books - 4 of each - on a trial basis. Even with 90 day deferred terms, his regional manager wouldn't let him try although the Reg Mgr admitted that they could sell well in that store given the pattern of other numismatic book sales.)

Publishers assume a lot of risk when they agree to publish a title, so they apply their standards to the books. This might be at odds with the author's ideas, but that's something one gives up in exchange for wider distribution. As for an editor “pampering” the author – if emails at 2am and doing reviews under tight deadlines are pampering, I’ll take the normal abuse, please. (The Whitman editor I worked with on the Peace dollar book was great and deserves a lot of praise for putting up with me.)

If authors don't make a dime on numismatic books, why not go with a big publisher, to at least get b

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