Would you rather have a "market Graded" MS-62 or an accurately graded AU-58? 1835 Truevie

NHSBaseball · October 21, 2008 2:03AM

I have noticed with the tightening of grading at PCGS that most NGC MS- 61 or 62's that I have cracked out and submitted have been coming back as AU-58's from PCGS. I have posted an example below of a half dime I cracked from an NGC MS-62 holder that has come back as AU-58 from PCGS.

This is the 3rd coin in the past 2 months that has been downgraded from low MS to AU-58, and I keep sending them in! In reality, I have mixed feelings about it- of course I am disappointed that PCGS did not see them as true mint state coins, and I know that I will take a financial hit if I sell them. On the other hand, if they are truly and technically AU-58's, why not have them holdered as such?

In a PM to another board member, I discussed the possibility of having the coins downgraded and stated that the coin should speak for itself, regardless of the grade. This is one of the 2 or 3 nicest coins in my collection- it was when holdered at MS-62 and still is holdered at AU-58.

I know this has been discussed to death, but as with most things, I have to experience it for myself in order to really process the information. What do y'all think?

As a side note, I absolutely love this Trueview of the coin- PCGS did a great job of capturing how it looks in hand.

BECOKA · October 21, 2008 2:07AM

I have also learned the hard way over the years. In return I have also learned how to grade my series where NGC consistently 80%+ of the time has a different grading standard than PCGS when it comes to numbers. i.e. AU58 at NGC is usually AU53/AU55 at PCGS. AU55 at NGC is consistently XF45/AU53 etc....

Heck I had an NGC AU58 come back as AU50 while I was learning.

WinPitcher · October 21, 2008 2:10AM

Depends on a few factors, did I buy it as a 58 or a 62 and at what price point.

If I bought it as a 62 I'd be pi$$ed if I tried to get it into a 63 holder and it came back a 58.

Steve

BECOKA · October 21, 2008 2:14AM

<< Depends on a few factors, did I buy it as a 58 or a 62 and at what price point.

If I bought it as a 62 I'd be pi$$ed if I tried to get it into a 63 holder and it came back a 58.

Steve >>

I would not be pissed, if you are trying to get a 62 into a 63 holder you should know how to grade by the standard of the company you are submitting to. There are professionals that do nothing other than play the upgrade game. For a collector that is not sure either leave it alone or get a second professional opinion before submitting for a cross over.

NumbersUsacom · October 21, 2008 2:18AM

NHS,

Pardon the ignorance, but can you tell me a little on that 5cent coin. Is it a pattern or??

WinPitcher · October 21, 2008 2:26AM

I would not be pissed, if you are trying to get a 62 into a 63 holder you should know how to grade by the standard of the company you are submitting to

Assume the person does know how to grade by the standard of the company and it still comes back a 58 are you know pi$$ed?

Or are you saying the TPG is always right?

Steve

BECOKA · October 21, 2008 2:33AM

<< I would not be pissed, if you are trying to get a 62 into a 63 holder you should know how to grade by the standard of the company you are submitting to

Assume the person does know how to grade by the standard of the company and it still comes back a 58 are you know pi$$ed?

Or are you saying the TPG is always right?

Steve >>

I'm saying it's a learning experience and the TPG is not always right but usually consistent within a grade of their standard (for my series NGC seems to overlap 3 grades and gives bonuses for eye appeal where the technical merit is not there for the grade). If someone does not know how to grade they will quickly understand that there is interpretation to that grade and should be more careful how they approach the cross over game.

Yeah I might be a little peeved at the beginning but like I said its a learning experience and that I would calm down as soon as I started learning.

AU58WALKERS · October 21, 2008 2:36AM

perhaps you should be pissed because you paid MS money for a circulated coin.

Broadstruck · October 21, 2008 2:43AM

Since we know market grading exists it's more so your need to know how to grade beyond the opinion provided by the TPG insert and then buy the coin based on what you feel it's worth?

I bought a non PCGS Type Once SLQ in a MS62FH holder a few years ago it was rainbow toned and had just a trace of rub but full mint bloom luster... the coin was worth the same in AU58FH as MS62FH so it didn't matter.

BECOKA · October 21, 2008 2:44AM

<< perhaps you should be pissed because you paid MS money for a circulated coin. >>

This is where the question comes in, Market has accepted NGC 62 coins. If the coin would not have been crossed did you buy an MS or AU coin?

NHSBaseball · October 21, 2008 2:46AM

<< perhaps you should be pissed because you paid MS money for a circulated coin. >>

Good point. However, I am not pissed about the money I paid for the coin itself. I would honestly pay the same price for this particular coinn AU-58. I find it very appealing, and it's a difficult die marriage in higher grades.

All of you who have referred to the whole process as a learning experience are absolutely spot on.

NumbersUS, it is not a pattern but a regular issue half dime of the Philadelphia mint from 1829- 1837, when the Seated Liberty design was adopted.

stman · October 21, 2008 2:47AM

I would rather have an accurately graded AU-58. This is not aimed at you personally, but in general it is my opinion too many folks have got spoiled by the market grading.
Not only spoiled but they expect sliders to get the bump. If/when they quit doing the bump, I think too many people think they are wrong. Or, they have learned to grade Au's as mintstate. I guess I'm still old school, but not a bad thing IMO.

Signed, old Dinosaur.

Barndog · October 21, 2008 3:09AM

bottom line is the coin is the same coin, regardless of the grade on the label. You have chosen clear plastic as your slab of choice, so you accept what the label says and enjoy the coin (or resubmit it again and again until the label is "right" but still enjoy the coin). I've submitted NGC UNC's and received properly-graded PCGS AU-58s in return. The coin never changed, just the label. In fact, I've even taken a PCGS AU-55, cracked it, submitted it raw, and received PCGS MS-62 back. The coin never changed, just the label. Remember that graders have differing abilities to distinguish strike vs. wear and sometimes the graders' opinion will reflect their ability, especially on bust coins.

Broadstruck · October 21, 2008 3:10AM

NHSBaseball, I've truly enjoyed your posts!

Yet based on your submissions which have been scary to some degree IMHO your best off taking a break and hitting the books prior to spending any more fundage.

It seems that your buying a lot raw which is risky as there's a reason why some of these coins aren't encapsulated.

And when entombed your really need to know how to buy the coin not the plastic.

NHSBaseball · October 21, 2008 3:34AM

You're absolutely right, Broadstruck- and I do try to continue educating myself as much as possible. There are a few points which have been said again and again on these boards that are finally sinking in-

1) buy the coin, not the plastic.
2) learn to grade accurately
3) The TPG's to some extent are a "game" which you can choose to play or can opt out of entirely.
4) NGC and PCGS are not consistent with each other, and often with themselves given multiple submissions, on grading bust coinage.
5) You will have to sometimes pay multiples of sheet or price guides for nice coins.

To overuse an expression, the coin I posted "is what it is" and what it is is one of the prettiest, most eye-appealing coins in my collection. With this particular coin, I would pay again what I paid for it initially in AU-58 plastic or in 62 plastic. I like it that much (not always the case, though).

I guess I am really being forced to question my approach to collecting, which I think is a good thing. Initially I bought coins in plastic( and had them graded when bought raw) to to reinforce my admittedly shaky grading skills. I have come to the realization though that there is a fine and fluid line between AU-55 and MS-62 even with professional graders who do this for a living. The question I have to answer for myself is- does this really matter in the grand scheme of things as far as my own personal collection is concerned? It also forces me to ask myself why I "play the game" as far as the TPG's go, and what am I hoping to accomplish by doing so?

Thanks for all the responses and opinions- I appreciate them all.

MrHalfDime · October 21, 2008 3:48AM

I should preface my comments by saying that I do not have any coins presently in slabs. Any coin that I once bought in a slab is now freed from its plastic tomb and is mounted in my own holder, complete with my own grade.

AU-58 has always been my grade of choice, and the vast majority of my Capped Bust and Liberty Seated half dimes are all AU-58, or as close to that grade as I can find. I have often 'downgraded' mint state coins when a suitable AU-58 becomes available. It is my opinion that the AU-58 grade offers the best value in today's market, with a quality coin at a reasonable price. I am of the opinion that a truly AU-58 coin, which meets my standards for that grade, is a 'better' coin than an MS-60, MS-61, or MS-62 coin, and is roughly equal in value to an MS-63 coin. Presumably, any mint state coin, of any grade, is the quality the coin represented when it left the mint. An MS-60 graded coin represents the lowest mint state grade, and the poorest strike quality for an uncirculated coin. MS-61 is barely better than that, and MS-62 may still have strike issues and many contact marks. However, an AU-58 coin is one that was perhaps MS-63 or even MS-64 when it left the mint, and exhibits only the very slightest contact marks or rub. The quality of strike for an AU-58 coin is always superior to that of say an AU-50 or even an AU-55 coin.

With this in mind, I would not be the least bit disappointed that your NGC MS-62 coins came back from PCGS as AU-58. As Barndog stated, the coin has not changed. It is the very same coin as it was before you submitted it, and with a little care, it will remain the same coin long after the grade-flation foolishness has escalated to ridiculous levels and subsided once again to reasonable levels.

Your 1835 LM-5/V10 is a beautiful example of the Capped Bust half dimes, and difficult to locate in that grade. You should be very pleased with that coin no matter what other 'independent' graders might think of it.

CaptainRon · October 21, 2008 3:54AM

<< perhaps you should be pissed because you paid MS money for a circulated coin. >>

Pissed at whom:
A) NGC for grading it a 62

PCGS for grading it a 58
C) Himself for buying a coin that one company believes is a 62 and another 58
D) The person that sold it to him.

Being the previous owner, I am suprised that it came back a 62. Just as I'm sure the gentleman that I purchased it from would would also be disappointed.

Jack, I am seriously bummed that it did not cross for you. If I knew your intentions were to cross it because you preferred it in a PCGS holder, I would of bet you it would of crossed. Actually being the previous owner I contempleted sending it in for crossover before I picked up an upgrade in a PCGS holder a while back. I told you in the past that if you were ever unsatisified with the coin I would take it back. However this gets a little tricky. I honestly do not know how to handle a situation like this, being we never discussed the crossover option/game, I really do not feel I should be obligated to take it back as a 58. If you do preffer your coins though in PCGS holders I would suggest that you purchase coins just in PCGS holders. I do not know if I should be obligated to do so, but I will do it anyways, you were considering buying a couple of PCGS graded coins from me, I'll knock a portion off of those coins to help you eat some of the cost differance in the 62-58 grade. Or I'll pay to have the coin sent in once for again for a regrade. If you choose to send the coin back to NGC and get it back in a 62 Holder, you will get a full refund.

If you have any concerns that you do not feel comfortable typing about in this thread please feel free to use the PM function.

Regards
Ron

SkyMan · October 21, 2008 4:11AM

If you are happy with the coin and the money that you paid for it what does it matter? If on the other hand you are happy with the coin, but are now not happy with what you paid for it then it does indeed matter.

EDITED TO ADD: Sweet looking coin, BTW!

CoinJunkie · October 21, 2008 4:20AM

If you just want to get an education regarding how the various services (at this moment
in time) are grading "sliders", then you shouldn't be cracking out the coins, IMO. I might
be willing to sell someone a coin with a return contingency should it not cross, but once
the coin is cracked out, it is sold.

AU58WALKERS · October 21, 2008 4:28AM

I don't think the OP ever mentioned the word "RETURN"

CoinJunkie · October 21, 2008 4:31AM

<< I don't think the OP ever mentioned the word "RETURN" >>

That's true, but CaptainRon brought up the issue, so I chimed in.

NHSBaseball · October 21, 2008 4:38AM

<< 

<< perhaps you should be pissed because you paid MS money for a circulated coin. >>

Pissed at whom:
A) NGC for grading it a 62

PCGS for grading it a 58
C) Himself for buying a coin that one company believes is a 62 and another 58
D) The person that sold it to him.

Being the previous owner, I am suprised that it came back a 62. Just as I'm sure the gentleman that I purchased it from would would also be disappointed.

Jack, I am seriously bummed that it did not cross for you. If I knew your intentions were to cross it because you preferred it in a PCGS holder, I would of bet you it would of crossed. Actually being the previous owner I contempleted sending it in for crossover before I picked up an upgrade in a PCGS holder a while back. I told you in the past that if you were ever unsatisified with the coin I would take it back. However this gets a little tricky. I honestly do not know how to handle a situation like this, being we never discussed the crossover option/game, I really do not feel I should be obligated to take it back as a 58. If you do preffer your coins though in PCGS holders I would suggest that you purchase coins just in PCGS holders. I do not know if I should be obligated to do so, but I will do it anyways, you were considering buying a couple of PCGS graded coins from me, I'll knock a portion off of those coins to help you eat some of the cost differance in the 62-58 grade. Or I'll pay to have the coin sent in once for again for a regrade. If you choose to send the coin back to NGC and get it back in a 62 Holder, you will get a full refund.

If you have any concerns that you do not feel comfortable typing about in this thread please feel free to use the PM function.

Regards
Ron >>

Let me publicly say that I am totally happy with the coin and would not sell it for half again what I paid. I jumped at the opportunity to buy this coin from CaptainRon, and he was and is a great seller. In retrospect I probably should have used one of the other 2 coins I have that got the same results, but the Trueview of this coin best illustrates the difficulty I am having with the "sliding scale" between AU-58 and MS-62.

CaptainRon is a great guy and I would recommend him wholeheartedly.

The decision to cross the coin to PCGS was my own- dumb or not- because all of the other coins in my collection are PCGS coins.

jsf · October 21, 2008 4:56AM

This is one of those threads that needs an asterisk by it in the archives, an asterisk for mandatory reading by all new collectors.

...and as a refresher for many others.

Wise ol' birds around here, there be...

lcoopie · October 21, 2008 5:02AM

If you plan on keeping the coin
I don't understand all the cracking that's going on

If you want to see if PCGS agrees with the grade, why not send it in the holder?

Barndog · October 21, 2008 5:38AM

here's a larger photo if it helps (and I won't post a huge pic, but you can examine it yourself here: LINK

JRocco · October 21, 2008 6:08AM

Lot of good information given in this thread.
I guess I am an old dinosaur also, but a true 58 is usually a great coin for the grade. It is the highest grade you can give a circulated piece. You can say it is the MS70 of the Circulated grades

I posted this one a short while ago and this is what us old dinosaur's call a real 58. Notice the ever so slight rub or luster break on this pretty little lady's nose and chin? Yup-this is a 58.

ziggy29 · October 21, 2008 7:10AM

Market graded 62 or an accurately graded 58? What's the difference except for the grade on the label?

lcoopie · October 21, 2008 7:50AM

JRocco,
thats a great pic
so what do you think of the coin in the OP?

RBinTex · October 21, 2008 7:53AM

AU58 (RB I might add) ANYDAY!!!

PerryHall · October 21, 2008 8:03AM

<< Market graded 62 or an accurately graded 58? What's the difference except for the grade on the label? >>

How much money it will bring when you sell it on eBay.

JRocco · October 21, 2008 9:31AM

<< JRocco,
thats a great pic
so what do you think of the coin in the OP? >>

Thanks
I can't really tell from the pic in the OP whether there is rub on the coin, but I assume that PCGS got it right.
A lot of lower grade MS are really high AU coins, as we all know.
If you look at the MS grades of 60-70 you would have to think that a 60-62 coin would show a ton of hits or bagmarks - it should at least. If it doesn't then I immediately think that there must be a reason it is so clean and still in a low MS holder....the usual reason is it is not a MS coin but a nice slider that got the old market grade.
I would pay stronger money for a clean coin with a touch of rub (like the coin I posted) over a really beat up MS coin - a true 60 or 61 for example.

Shamika · October 21, 2008 9:33AM

AU coins should grade AU every time. Let the market decide if the coin warrants an MS price tag.

TwoSides2aCoin · October 21, 2008 9:39AM

<< AU coins should grade AU every time. Let the market decide if the coin warrants an MS price tag. >>

Right on. If it looks good, it's worth more than if it doesn't.

DeusExMachina · October 21, 2008 3:34PM

Jack, nice looking half dime.

I could care less about the grade and I'm sure Jack feels the same way.

I know many posters here are genuinely concerned about value (price paid vs. grade/condition) and helping other collectors save money. I offer a different perspective.

How can anyone learn to grade? What are the important factors when grading (e.g. consistency, accounting for eye appealing, accounting for rarity, etc.)? A grade is merely an opinion - nothing more and nothing less. As long as the owner is happy that is all that matters.

Congrats on another nice pickup and the beginnings of a great collection of H10s.

jfoot13 · October 21, 2008 3:50PM

I would rather have a premium coin for the grade than a premium insert for the coin

CoinJunkie · October 21, 2008 4:07PM

<< Jack, nice looking half dime.

I could care less about the grade and I'm sure Jack feels the same way.

I know many posters here are genuinely concerned about value (price paid vs. grade/condition) and helping other collectors save money. I offer a different perspective.

How can anyone learn to grade? What are the important factors when grading (e.g. consistency, accounting for eye appealing, accounting for rarity, etc.)? A grade is merely an opinion - nothing more and nothing less. As long as the owner is happy that is all that matters.

Congrats on another nice pickup and the beginnings of a great collection of H10s. >>

Well said. As I mentioned earlier, grading is subjective and standards change with time.
The only absolute is the coin! Getting a certain number on a slab should only be important to a
flipper, not a collector.

Corollary: If you don't really love a coin, think hard before cracking it out. It may downgrade
(or bag) and you won't be able to amortize the lost value over the years spent enjoying the
coin.

Unknown · October 21, 2008 4:20PM

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Would you rather have a "market Graded" MS-62 or an accurately graded AU-58? 1835 Truevie

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Would you rather have a &quot;market Graded&quot; MS-62 or an accurately graded AU-58? 1835 Truevie

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Would you rather have a "market Graded" MS-62 or an accurately graded AU-58? 1835 Truevie