1909 V.D.B. - Odd...
pheh
Posts: 1,588 ✭
Alright... I'm just not sure what I think of this thing. It cost me nothing - just a weird find amongst a bunch of assorted wheats, foreign and "junk coins" I was sorting through. It has no markers for being a matte proof - and I'm certainly more leaning toward it not being one. But...
- The finish, at least in hand (can't speak for my pictures), is amazingly matte proof-like.
- The rims are sharp inside.
The devices really throw me. Sometimes they looks like they could be squared enough to look right if I lean myself toward thinking it basically hit circulation at one point. Of course then I wonder who I'm kidding. Then I thumb the sharp rims... and so on...
I guess I really have two questions.
Can you see enough through the pictures to say that you could see why I'd wonder?
Can you clearly see why its blatantly obvious that there is no chance this could be a matte proof?
- The finish, at least in hand (can't speak for my pictures), is amazingly matte proof-like.
- The rims are sharp inside.
The devices really throw me. Sometimes they looks like they could be squared enough to look right if I lean myself toward thinking it basically hit circulation at one point. Of course then I wonder who I'm kidding. Then I thumb the sharp rims... and so on...
I guess I really have two questions.
Can you see enough through the pictures to say that you could see why I'd wonder?
Can you clearly see why its blatantly obvious that there is no chance this could be a matte proof?
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Comments
www.brunkauctions.com
<< <i>business strike, sorry >>
No need to be sorry. Though, and no offense meant, I would have preferred something more constructive. Like I said, I've got no horse in the race really. But having held more than a couple matte proofs raw in hand - I paused on this coin. 1) because I've never held a 1909 V.D.B. matte proof and as a circulated coin it looked like it could fit (albeit without die markers).
<< <i>
<< <i>business strike, sorry >>
No need to be sorry. Though, and no offense meant, I would have preferred something more constructive. Like I said, I've got no horse in the race really. But having held more than a couple matte proofs raw in hand - I paused on this coin. 1) because I've never held a 1909 V.D.B. matte proof and as a circulated coin it looked like it could fit (albeit without die markers). >>
You kinda answered your own question with the comment about die markers. I don't know exactly what type of comment could be considered "constructive" on a thread like this, given what you already know.
<< <i>You kinda answered your own question with the comment about die markers. I don't know exactly what type of comment could be considered "constructive" on a thread like this, given what you already know. >>
Yeah.. after reading yet more (prompted by being chided a bit). I realize I was putting less stock into the die markers than I should have. I had read threads here which mentioned the absence of a marker here and there on certified coins. Reading some more threads I think I realize now I made my mistake understanding why one marker might be less important than another and not realizing no markers answers the question.
Meh. Still a neat semi-odd coin to me, I like it regardless. Thanks for whacking me in the head with the "Its the markers, stupid"-stick.
- Bob -
MPL's - Lincolns of Color
Central Valley Roosevelts
"Everything is on its way to somewhere. Everything." - George Malley, Phenomenon
http://www.american-legacy-coins.com
There has been no study yet but some intrest in the fact that Matte Dies were ever used to strike Buisness coins. Several coins like yours and other 1909-1916 years come up with squared off rims, matte finishes and hammered strikes that gets everyone to wonder, But no one ever looks at the rim thickness - another sure tool.
WS
When matte proof Lincolns and Buffalos were struck, not all of the pieces were acceptable to the coiner. For example, if 1,000 1909 VDB proof cents were struck, only 812 might have been acceptable as proofs. Of the remaining coins, those that were good for circulation were put into circulation and those that were defective coin were destroyed (as were other mis-strikes and defective pieces). Additionally, some percentage of matte proofs ended up being spent.
Lastly, some matte proof dies were used to strike circulation pieces after the matte surface deteriorated. (Matte proof dies were prepared by sandblasting the dies before they were hardened. They could not be resurfaced without damaging design detail.)
So, you have four possibilities:
1. A true matte proof, maintained in more or less original condition;
2. A true matte proof, but circulated;
3. A defective proof, deficient in some respect and put into circulation;
4. A circulation piece struck from used matte proof dies.
#1 -#3 were all struck on a medal press and should exhibit the strike characteristics of a proof coin.
#4 was struck on a production press and will not have the strike characteristics of a proof although it might have the die diagnostics.