<< <i>If I had a car and I was selling it to you guys and I knew the car had a problem wouldn't it be right to tell you everything about it? Or would others say: if your going to put money down for a car, you better do your research?? >>
If the car was certified by a third party, does that change anything?
I don't know bidask, but is it possible he has an agenda other than posting a story about his altruism saving a dumbass collector from a alleged bad deal? Referring to a 20 year old as a kid is my first inkling that something is lurking beneath the surface. >>
In the case of the car the 3rd party should have a report detailing the results of its inspection. Generally tho dealers who sell such cars often sell it as is where is and with all faults because the market value doesn't warrant a complete inspection.
I really wanted to stay out of this...I really did.....
I can't.
I don't know Dick Osburn except reputation (and that has been good). I don't know bidask but I actually believe him and that he wanted nothing other than to make sure a YOUNG person (20 is young to many) knew what he was doing and didn't get surprised.
If the YOUNG person knew about coins, he would have told bidask "thank you, but I know what I am doing and know what I bought". Maybe, he wouldn't have even been that nice in a reply to bidask if he really knew what he was doing. Instead, it was obvious he didn't.
I don't know DO's reasoning, nor the whole story, but I am not going to imagine there is more to it than was posted, I am not going to imagine that DO was trying to stick it to someone either.
For those imagining there is "more to it", some of them just like stirring the pot and never have anything useful to comment/post about in the rare times they do show up. For those fixated on someone around 20 years old being looked at as a "kid" or think that they should know what they are doing.....I think you are being elitist and not being objective at all.
Folks used to YNs around here have gotten spoiled. I can well imagine kids today having a few thousand (ooopss, I said kids....I should have said TEENAGERS) to spend on hobbies (money from presents, ebay, doing jobs, allowance, etc). It's not like when we were kids (I graduated high school and had less than $200 to my name).
I've also seen plenty of OLDER folks ON THESE BOARDS that had money like that, thought they knew what they were doing, and still bought PCI/ACG/SGS/whateverwhateverwhatever and people here laughed at them (or gave guidance) and they learned. Yet, they had the money and thought they knew what they were doing.
For those that want to hear the other side of the story, GO CALL DICK and ask him. See if he remembers the circumstances. I wouldn't mind to hear it but I am not a pot-stirrer here and whining about it. For those that think everyone spending a certain amount of money knows what they are doing? IMHO, you're an elitist. How many folks here have been burned but still thought they knew what they were doing? How many have lost more in the stock market but "knew what they were doing"?
Everyone has to learn, and while i agree even problem coins deserve a home, at the right price, it doesn't sound like that is what this kid got and it sounds, to me, like bidask did him a favor.
Since these are in fact the PCGS message boards, I have to give a nod to our hosts here by way of a word of advice to all novice collectors. If you are contemplating spending serious hard-earned money on coins, you would do well to completely and utterly refuse to buy any coins other than PCGS or NGC certified coins. In fact, in my personal opinion, one would do even better (as a novice) to purchase PCGS-certified coins only.
Before you all jump on me as a drinker of Kool-Aid, consider this: there are enough legitimate quality coins out there in PCGS holders to satisfy any novice collector. There is simply no reason to stray from the protection of people with far more experience than you. There is no reason whatsoever for a novice to buy a coin in a PCI holder, or an ANACS holder. One is far, far more likely to make a bad purchase and lose money by doing that. Of course, the well experienced specialist may have the knowledge and the confidence to stray beyond the comfort of the best grading services' certification. But the novice would be very well advised to keep it very simple: PCGS only.
Oh sure, you will all tell me that PCGS is not perfect, that there are overgraded or unappealing "widgets" in PCGS holders too. Perhaps, but the quality of the material in second- and third-tier holders is far, far lower, in my opinion.
It was undoubtedly a good deed, and good advice, to educate a young collector to the merits of original surfaces. However, from a practical standpoint, one would do the novice an even greater service by convincing him/her to stick with the very top service(s) until he/she gains considerable knowledge and experience in a particular area.
"Just remember, there are always more coins." - friendly words of advice given to me by dealer Wynn Carner years ago. Don't feel that you have to buy any particular coin. Another one - even a better one, will come along soon. This is especially true of coins in lesser holders ... just wait for the right PCGS coin to come along, and you'll be much better off in the long run.
A 20 year old with 3k to buy a coin with. I would like to see the rest of his collection. I had a great job when i was 20, i wish i had spent it on coins instead of...
I have read all these post and i have actually dealt with Dick. I must be a bad at cutting a deal becasue i did not recieve much off the asking price nor did my friends. My last purchase from him was at least 1 year ago so he may have changed but i lean more to what CoinJunkie said about prices.
When you get down to it most dealers are going to have some problem coins in the inventory. If you want to say it was a curtesy and he plans to wholesale the coin why was it in the inventory for all to see?
I would say most coin collectors spend little time if any on internet sites like this. I have over heard many a dealer coment on a rip on some buyer with more cash that brains and they want a shot at the money. The biggest line of bull that i have heard over and over and over by many, many dealers is that they are selling me a coin and making 5 to 20 dollars on it, or that they gave xx for the coin in question. I have had multiple dealers outright lie to me to make a sell or buy.
Dick is no better and no worse that the rest of the dealers out there to 98 percent of the potential customers. The 2 percent here on the forums know more and expect better. Dealers are more concerned with the easy 98 percent to make there money on. I am sure if you are polite and ask Dick questions and tell him what your goal is he will help you and give you good advise. Most people will not ask the questions and it is not Dicks job.
Mark NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!! working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
<< <i>If I had a car and I was selling it to you guys and I knew the car had a problem wouldn't it be right to tell you everything about it? Or would others say: if your going to put money down for a car, you better do your research?? >>
If the car was certified by a third party, does that change anything?
I don't know bidask, but is it possible he has an agenda other than posting a story about his altruism saving a dumbass collector from a alleged bad deal? Referring to a 20 year old as a kid is my first inkling that something is lurking beneath the surface. >>
The story is not about my "altruism". Reread my post and you will not find me using the word 'kid'. So what is your agenda Barry? To suggest you have never been a dumbass in buying coins. I know I have been.
I manage money. I earn money. I save money . I give away money. I collect money. I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
I have heard it said before, and in agreement with Sunnywood's post for a novice, like me, if I want a coin in a top tier holder, I ought to buy it in that holder. There are plenty of coins to go around.
for an expert, you can rely on your own grading abilities, I don't think many of us are experts, although some are.
<< <i>For those imagining there is "more to it", some of them just like stirring the pot and never have anything useful to comment/post about in the rare times they do show up. | >>
If you'd like to take a shot at me or someone else at least grow a set and state the subject of your snide comment.
<< <i>The story is not about my "altruism". Reread my post and you will not find me using the word 'kid'. So what is your agenda Barry? To suggest you have never been a dumbass in buying coins. I know I have been. >>
You're correct. You did not use the word "kid." You called him a young collector/numismatist. Again, I'm no spring chicken, but I don't consider a 20 year old a young collector/numismatist. And yes, I've made my numismatic mistakes, too, the biggest of which was trusting a large, "reputable" auction house.
I've bought (and sold) many coins from (to) Dick Osburn over the years, as my primary focus for a long time was Seated and Bust coins. Having done so, it's just hard for me to believe your story, even understanding dealers are in business to make a buck.
I have bought and sold with Dick and feel he is as good as they come. The lack of details astounds me. I am actually surprised you said anything to the collector. If that was me, I'd have walked away from you making sure I never buy from you or even stop at your table again. Did you give him wrong advice? No, I'm not saying that. Do you know if the coin that he bought was a rarer variety? How much research did you do on it before telling the collector he had made a huge mistake? That hasn't been discussed. If the collector talks to a dealer and says that he's been wanting to buy one of these for a long time, I'd assume that the collector has studied up a bit and knows what he's buying. You made WAY too many assumptions before talking to the collector and if it was me, I'd be afraid you were observing way too much of my transaction.
And to come on here and discuss Dick Osborn without knowing the rest of the conversation and even put a blemish on his reputation is wrong.
Care to share your identity so I know where not to go?
<< <i>The story is not about my "altruism". Reread my post and you will not find me using the word 'kid'. So what is your agenda Barry? To suggest you have never been a dumbass in buying coins. I know I have been. >>
You're correct. You did not use the word "kid." You called him a young collector/numismatist. Again, I'm no spring chicken, but I don't consider a 20 year old a young collector/numismatist. And yes, I've made my numismatic mistakes, too, the biggest of which was trusting a large, "reputable" auction house.
I've bought (and sold) many coins from (to) Dick Osburn over the years, as my primary focus for a long time was Seated and Bust coins. Having done so, it's just hard for me to believe your story, even understanding dealers are in business to make a buck. >>
Barry, I deliberately mentioned in a subsequent post to my OP that my intent was not to disparage DO but to emphasize giving some friendly advice to a collector so he could make better decisions in the future. In hindsight perhaps I should not have mentioned Dick's name at all because it created confusion about the intent of my post. ( but someone would have asked, you think?)
I encouraged this young numismatist to go back to Dick because I knew Dick would be a gentleman about it and take the coin back. You know alot of dealers would not have done that. Return policies have been discussed here too.
But I am telling you this coin was a POS even net graded and priced accordingly, IMO. ( I really don't even know the market on this kind of stuff,) Further, I asked this person if he had ever been on these boards and he said no. I suggested to him he go to the PCGS/message board site and search threads with the words original and cleaned and learn something.
Again, I wish someone more experienced had taken me aside when I was in my early 20's. It would have saved alot of mistakes early in my collecting career. That was my intent, simply to impart some knowledge.
I manage money. I earn money. I save money . I give away money. I collect money. I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
<< <i>For those imagining there is "more to it", some of them just like stirring the pot and never have anything useful to comment/post about in the rare times they do show up. | >>
If you'd like to take a shot at me or someone else at least grow a set and state the subject of your snide comment. >>
You must be feeling something to think it is about you. Tell you what, why don't you go spread more little stories to other people about me? You know you do have a little habit of that, don't you
<< <i>I have bought and sold with Dick and feel he is as good as they come. The lack of details astounds me. I am actually surprised you said anything to the collector. If that was me, I'd have walked away from you making sure I never buy from you or even stop at your table again. Did you give him wrong advice? No, I'm not saying that. Do you know if the coin that he bought was a rarer variety? How much research did you do on it before telling the collector he had made a huge mistake? That hasn't been discussed. If the collector talks to a dealer and says that he's been wanting to buy one of these for a long time, I'd assume that the collector has studied up a bit and knows what he's buying. You made WAY too many assumptions before talking to the collector and if it was me, I'd be afraid you were observing way too much of my transaction.
And to come on here and discuss Dick Osborn without knowing the rest of the conversation and even put a blemish on his reputation is wrong.
Care to share your identity so I know where not to go? >>
I am not a professional dealer so you don't have to go anywhere.
I manage money. I earn money. I save money . I give away money. I collect money. I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
<< <i>Since these are in fact the PCGS message boards, I have to give a nod to our hosts here by way of a word of advice to all novice collectors. If you are contemplating spending serious hard-earned money on coins, you would do well to completely and utterly refuse to buy any coins other than PCGS or NGC certified coins. In fact, in my personal opinion, one would do even better (as a novice) to purchase PCGS-certified coins only.
Before you all jump on me as a drinker of Kool-Aid, consider this: there are enough legitimate quality coins out there in PCGS holders to satisfy any novice collector. There is simply no reason to stray from the protection of people with far more experience than you. There is no reason whatsoever for a novice to buy a coin in a PCI holder, or an ANACS holder. One is far, far more likely to make a bad purchase and lose money by doing that. Of course, the well experienced specialist may have the knowledge and the confidence to stray beyond the comfort of the best grading services' certification. But the novice would be very well advised to keep it very simple: PCGS only.
Oh sure, you will all tell me that PCGS is not perfect, that there are overgraded or unappealing "widgets" in PCGS holders too. Perhaps, but the quality of the material in second- and third-tier holders is far, far lower, in my opinion.
It was undoubtedly a good deed, and good advice, to educate a young collector to the merits of original surfaces. However, from a practical standpoint, one would do the novice an even greater service by convincing him/her to stick with the very top service(s) until he/she gains considerable knowledge and experience in a particular area.
"Just remember, there are always more coins." - friendly words of advice given to me by dealer Wynn Carner years ago. Don't feel that you have to buy any particular coin. Another one - even a better one, will come along soon. This is especially true of coins in lesser holders ... just wait for the right PCGS coin to come along, and you'll be much better off in the long run.
Best, Sunnywood >>
While I am in general agreement with what Sunnywood wrote, I can tell my own cautionary tale that is similar to the story in the original post. Many moons ago, I was shopping for a certified Barber half. I was fortunate enough to have a veteran collector give his opinion on the coin I had picked out. We both looked at the coin, and then walked away from the table so I could hear his thoughts. Even though the coin was in a top two holder, he told me that to him, the coin looks cleaned. Wow, that was a splash of water on my face. I had not yet heard the term "market acceptable," but in hindsight realized that was what I was looking at.
Even with my story, my rule of thumb is that for coins above $500 in value, I agree with Sunnywood's general sentiment. For higher value coins, I am extremely unlikely to buy if the coin is not in a top two holders. The exception might be coins where the bullion value is the bulk of the money (eg: gold double eagles, or eagles). For the rest, the more the coin costs, the less likely I want it in another company's holder. The slab market share for ANACS and other slabbing companies, drops dramatically as the value of the coin goes up. Most dealers will offer less, often much less, for anything other than top two holder, and it is not just because of Kool-aid. Auction results back this up, if a person looks at the average price realized. Yes, there may be occasional exceptions, but there is too much data for me to ignore.
after reading this absurd thread I have the following observation...
... opinions are like butt*oles... everyone's got one and if they are not super clean, they tend to smell funky...
That's all... back to your agreed upon disagreement...
Re: Slabbed coins - There are some coins that LIVE within clear plastic and wear their labels with pride... while there are others that HIDE behind scratched plastic and are simply dragged along by a label. Then there are those coins that simply hang out, naked and free
I really don't see this being a story about a dealer... It is about sharing some tips on what to look for in terms of originality and coins that meet a certain standard and ones that clearly do not.
The reality is that there are coins and then there are quality coins in various states of preservation. Spending some time to provide some thoughts with someone that may be either new to the hobby or just does not have the grading experience is an excellent gesture.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
All bust coin dealers sell coins that have been cleaned, as 95+% of bust coins have been cleaned to some degree, including those in NGC/PCGS holders. The slab is not a security blanket. DO is a dealer and numismatist who sells coins at all quality levels, and prices coins for their quality/grade. There are reasons to purchase bust coins that are not original, as all serious die variety collectors will have many coins that have been cleaned or dipped in the past.
Robert Scot: Engraving Liberty - biography of US Mint's first chief engraver
<< <i>"...But the novice would be very well advised to keep it very simple: PCGS only."
///////////////
>>
I, on the other hand, vigorously disagree. Not merely because good coins can be found in all holders, or better yet, no holders at all. Not merely because also not all classes of numismatic items are coffinated by the well-known slabbers at all. But because novices, just starting out as they are, should not be buying the "expensive" (I realize this is a relative term) coins which (supposedly) benefit from being in coffins, but rather coins, which, if they make a mistake, and let's face it, they will (we all did), will be small mistakes rather than large mistakes. I like slabs getting called security blankets, because, well, blankets just are not that good at security.
If anything, the talk of slabs as security enhancers is dangerous; the phrase"raw for a reason" has a counterpoint: "slabbed for a reason." And we know why there is slabbing: not to protect collectors, but to make money for dealers. Numerical grading is the biggest bubble this coin hobby has seen. Slabbing helped prop it up, so is stickering. But eventually, we will see that we take it too seriously.
I assume this is the coin "bidask" is referring to as the real bad 1799 PCI POS. This has just been added on Dick's website. Ray
1799 XF40 (PCI) B-9 R2 Listed as a weak strike by PCI, that's a correct description for the coin. The details are mostly XF, but it has some areas of notable weakness Cleaned, now lightly retoned with a look that's somewhat natural but a little too bright. Light gold and faintly lustrous. With XF's pricing in the $4-5k range this is a decent example for a budget-minded price 2,950
Is this still going on? Had the guy ask Dick any questions or told him what he wanted this would never had been a problem. I'm sure DO is busy at shows and can't spend the time he will on the phone if you have questions but he'd make as much time as needed to get you into the right coin. I've seen him regrade coins in holders from PCGS, NGC, and others, some down, some up. In fact he had an 1815 Bust Half in a PCGS holder where he made the comment " Cleaned but PCGS doesn't think so" and adjusted the price. I'd trust him over any TPG in Seated and Bust coins....JMO
I was parusing Dick's inventory a few years ago, at the recommendation of this forum. I called Dick and explained that I was interested in original and uncleaned examples of bust halves for my Dansco. Dick chose two coins and sent them to me. Both were obviously dipped and one was harshly cleaned. I returned the coins and I've not spoken to or purchased coins from him since, as you only get one chance to treat me right and I don't appreciate saying one thing and doing another.
Respectfully...Mike
p.s. Kudos to you, Bidask, for doing the right thing. Bravo!
Collector of Large Cents, US Type, and modern pocket change.
<< <i>Aww, nuts. I did the stupid "post to a 100+ thread" thing again. >>
I'm still somewhat new here. What does this mean? >>
IMO, 100+ threads have a habit of generating more heat than light (not always, of course). That's something I try not to get involved with. Failing sometimes, of course.
MikeInFL- That must have been weird, asking for original and nice and getting dipped and clean. We all know by reading these thread that Dick knows coins. You must be mistaken.
Mark NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!! working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
<< <i>Of all the dealers I've ever dealt with Dick Osburn is in my top 3. In my opinion, he is an asset to the hobby. >>
I really think you should of left out the name of the dealer. You should of said, "a well respected dealer." Mentioning his name unfairly blemishes his reputation because we do not know what all Dick said to the young man.
He is an honest dealer, my personal favorite. He spent a lot of time discussing coins, educating me at a coin show when he had a lot of work to do.
It's unfair and just plain wrong. You're intentions may have been good, but not presented in proper manner.
Comments
<< <i>
<< <i>If I had a car and I was selling it to you guys and I knew the car had a problem wouldn't it be right to tell you everything about it? Or would others say: if your going to put money down for a car, you better do your research?? >>
If the car was certified by a third party, does that change anything?
I don't know bidask, but is it possible he has an agenda other than posting a story about his altruism saving a dumbass collector from a alleged bad deal? Referring to a 20 year old as a kid is my first inkling that something is lurking beneath the surface. >>
In the case of the car the 3rd party should have a report detailing the results of its inspection. Generally tho dealers who sell such cars often sell it as is where is and with all faults because the market value doesn't warrant a complete inspection.
I can't.
I don't know Dick Osburn except reputation (and that has been good). I don't know bidask but I actually believe him and that he wanted nothing other than to make sure a YOUNG person (20 is young to many) knew what he was doing and didn't get surprised.
If the YOUNG person knew about coins, he would have told bidask "thank you, but I know what I am doing and know what I bought". Maybe, he wouldn't have even been that nice in a reply to bidask if he really knew what he was doing. Instead, it was obvious he didn't.
I don't know DO's reasoning, nor the whole story, but I am not going to imagine there is more to it than was posted, I am not going to imagine that DO was trying to stick it to someone either.
For those imagining there is "more to it", some of them just like stirring the pot and never have anything useful to comment/post about in the rare times they do show up.
For those fixated on someone around 20 years old being looked at as a "kid" or think that they should know what they are doing.....I think you are being elitist and not being objective at all.
Folks used to YNs around here have gotten spoiled. I can well imagine kids today having a few thousand (ooopss, I said kids....I should have said TEENAGERS) to spend on hobbies (money from presents, ebay, doing jobs, allowance, etc). It's not like when we were kids (I graduated high school and had less than $200 to my name).
I've also seen plenty of OLDER folks ON THESE BOARDS that had money like that, thought they knew what they were doing, and still bought PCI/ACG/SGS/whateverwhateverwhatever and people here laughed at them (or gave guidance) and they learned. Yet, they had the money and thought they knew what they were doing.
For those that want to hear the other side of the story, GO CALL DICK and ask him. See if he remembers the circumstances. I wouldn't mind to hear it but I am not a pot-stirrer here and whining about it.
For those that think everyone spending a certain amount of money knows what they are doing? IMHO, you're an elitist. How many folks here have been burned but still thought they knew what they were doing? How many have lost more in the stock market but "knew what they were doing"?
Everyone has to learn, and while i agree even problem coins deserve a home, at the right price, it doesn't sound like that is what this kid got and it sounds, to me, like bidask did him a favor.
Sheesh people, a bunch of elitists come out again
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
Before you all jump on me as a drinker of Kool-Aid, consider this: there are enough legitimate quality coins out there in PCGS holders to satisfy any novice collector. There is simply no reason to stray from the protection of people with far more experience than you. There is no reason whatsoever for a novice to buy a coin in a PCI holder, or an ANACS holder. One is far, far more likely to make a bad purchase and lose money by doing that. Of course, the well experienced specialist may have the knowledge and the confidence to stray beyond the comfort of the best grading services' certification. But the novice would be very well advised to keep it very simple: PCGS only.
Oh sure, you will all tell me that PCGS is not perfect, that there are overgraded or unappealing "widgets" in PCGS holders too. Perhaps, but the quality of the material in second- and third-tier holders is far, far lower, in my opinion.
It was undoubtedly a good deed, and good advice, to educate a young collector to the merits of original surfaces. However, from a practical standpoint, one would do the novice an even greater service by convincing him/her to stick with the very top service(s) until he/she gains considerable knowledge and experience in a particular area.
"Just remember, there are always more coins." - friendly words of advice given to me by dealer Wynn Carner years ago. Don't feel that you have to buy any particular coin. Another one - even a better one, will come along soon. This is especially true of coins in lesser holders ... just wait for the right PCGS coin to come along, and you'll be much better off in the long run.
Best,
Sunnywood
Sunnywood's Rainbow-Toned Morgans (Retired)
Sunnywood's Barber Quarters (Retired)
I have read all these post and i have actually dealt with Dick. I must be a bad at cutting a deal becasue i did not recieve much off the asking price nor did my friends. My last purchase from him was at least 1 year ago so he may have changed but i lean more to what CoinJunkie said about prices.
When you get down to it most dealers are going to have some problem coins in the inventory. If you want to say it was a curtesy and he plans to wholesale the coin why was it in the inventory for all to see?
I would say most coin collectors spend little time if any on internet sites like this. I have over heard many a dealer coment on a rip on some buyer with more cash that brains and they want a shot at the money. The biggest line of bull that i have heard over and over and over by many, many dealers is that they are selling me a coin and making 5 to 20 dollars on it, or that they gave xx for the coin in question. I have had multiple dealers outright lie to me to make a sell or buy.
Dick is no better and no worse that the rest of the dealers out there to 98 percent of the potential customers. The 2 percent here on the forums know more and expect better. Dealers are more concerned with the easy 98 percent to make there money on. I am sure if you are polite and ask Dick questions and tell him what your goal is he will help you and give you good advise. Most people will not ask the questions and it is not Dicks job.
NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!!
working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
RIP "BEAR"
<< <i>
<< <i>If I had a car and I was selling it to you guys and I knew the car had a problem wouldn't it be right to tell you everything about it? Or would others say: if your going to put money down for a car, you better do your research?? >>
If the car was certified by a third party, does that change anything?
I don't know bidask, but is it possible he has an agenda other than posting a story about his altruism saving a dumbass collector from a alleged bad deal? Referring to a 20 year old as a kid is my first inkling that something is lurking beneath the surface. >>
The story is not about my "altruism". Reread my post and you will not find me using the word 'kid'. So what is your agenda Barry? To suggest you have never been a dumbass in buying coins. I know I have been.
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
for a novice,
like me,
if I want a coin in a top tier holder,
I ought to buy it in that holder.
There are plenty of coins to go around.
for an expert, you can rely on your own grading abilities,
I don't think many of us are experts, although some are.
<< <i>For those imagining there is "more to it", some of them just like stirring the pot and never have anything useful to comment/post about in the rare times they do show up.
| >>
If you'd like to take a shot at me or someone else at least grow a set and state the subject of your snide comment.
<< <i>The story is not about my "altruism". Reread my post and you will not find me using the word 'kid'. So what is your agenda Barry? To suggest you have never been a dumbass in buying coins. I know I have been. >>
You're correct. You did not use the word "kid." You called him a young collector/numismatist. Again, I'm no spring chicken, but I don't consider a 20 year old a young collector/numismatist. And yes, I've made my numismatic mistakes, too, the biggest of which was trusting a large, "reputable" auction house.
I've bought (and sold) many coins from (to) Dick Osburn over the years, as my primary focus for a long time was Seated and Bust coins. Having done so, it's just hard for me to believe your story, even understanding dealers are in business to make a buck.
And to come on here and discuss Dick Osborn without knowing the rest of the conversation and even put a blemish on his reputation is wrong.
Care to share your identity so I know where not to go?
<< <i>
<< <i>The story is not about my "altruism". Reread my post and you will not find me using the word 'kid'. So what is your agenda Barry? To suggest you have never been a dumbass in buying coins. I know I have been. >>
You're correct. You did not use the word "kid." You called him a young collector/numismatist. Again, I'm no spring chicken, but I don't consider a 20 year old a young collector/numismatist. And yes, I've made my numismatic mistakes, too, the biggest of which was trusting a large, "reputable" auction house.
I've bought (and sold) many coins from (to) Dick Osburn over the years, as my primary focus for a long time was Seated and Bust coins. Having done so, it's just hard for me to believe your story, even understanding dealers are in business to make a buck. >>
Barry, I deliberately mentioned in a subsequent post to my OP that my intent was not to disparage DO but to emphasize giving some friendly advice to a collector so he could make better decisions in the future. In hindsight perhaps I should not have mentioned Dick's name at all because it created confusion about the intent of my post. ( but someone would have asked, you think?)
I encouraged this young numismatist to go back to Dick because I knew Dick would be a gentleman about it and take the coin back. You know alot of dealers would not have done that. Return policies have been discussed here too.
But I am telling you this coin was a POS even net graded and priced accordingly, IMO. ( I really don't even know the market on this kind of stuff,) Further, I asked this person if he had ever been on these boards and he said no. I suggested to him he go to the PCGS/message board site and search threads with the words original and cleaned and learn something.
Again, I wish someone more experienced had taken me aside when I was in my early 20's. It would have saved alot of mistakes early in my collecting career. That was my intent, simply to impart some knowledge.
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
<< <i>
<< <i>For those imagining there is "more to it", some of them just like stirring the pot and never have anything useful to comment/post about in the rare times they do show up.
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If you'd like to take a shot at me or someone else at least grow a set and state the subject of your snide comment. >>
You must be feeling something to think it is about you. Tell you what, why don't you go spread more little stories to other people about me? You know you do have a little habit of that, don't you
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
<< <i>I have bought and sold with Dick and feel he is as good as they come. The lack of details astounds me. I am actually surprised you said anything to the collector. If that was me, I'd have walked away from you making sure I never buy from you or even stop at your table again. Did you give him wrong advice? No, I'm not saying that. Do you know if the coin that he bought was a rarer variety? How much research did you do on it before telling the collector he had made a huge mistake? That hasn't been discussed. If the collector talks to a dealer and says that he's been wanting to buy one of these for a long time, I'd assume that the collector has studied up a bit and knows what he's buying. You made WAY too many assumptions before talking to the collector and if it was me, I'd be afraid you were observing way too much of my transaction.
And to come on here and discuss Dick Osborn without knowing the rest of the conversation and even put a blemish on his reputation is wrong.
Care to share your identity so I know where not to go? >>
I am not a professional dealer so you don't have to go anywhere.
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
<< <i>Wow >>
Well said...
<< <i>Since these are in fact the PCGS message boards, I have to give a nod to our hosts here by way of a word of advice to all novice collectors. If you are contemplating spending serious hard-earned money on coins, you would do well to completely and utterly refuse to buy any coins other than PCGS or NGC certified coins. In fact, in my personal opinion, one would do even better (as a novice) to purchase PCGS-certified coins only.
Before you all jump on me as a drinker of Kool-Aid, consider this: there are enough legitimate quality coins out there in PCGS holders to satisfy any novice collector. There is simply no reason to stray from the protection of people with far more experience than you. There is no reason whatsoever for a novice to buy a coin in a PCI holder, or an ANACS holder. One is far, far more likely to make a bad purchase and lose money by doing that. Of course, the well experienced specialist may have the knowledge and the confidence to stray beyond the comfort of the best grading services' certification. But the novice would be very well advised to keep it very simple: PCGS only.
Oh sure, you will all tell me that PCGS is not perfect, that there are overgraded or unappealing "widgets" in PCGS holders too. Perhaps, but the quality of the material in second- and third-tier holders is far, far lower, in my opinion.
It was undoubtedly a good deed, and good advice, to educate a young collector to the merits of original surfaces. However, from a practical standpoint, one would do the novice an even greater service by convincing him/her to stick with the very top service(s) until he/she gains considerable knowledge and experience in a particular area.
"Just remember, there are always more coins." - friendly words of advice given to me by dealer Wynn Carner years ago. Don't feel that you have to buy any particular coin. Another one - even a better one, will come along soon. This is especially true of coins in lesser holders ... just wait for the right PCGS coin to come along, and you'll be much better off in the long run.
Best,
Sunnywood >>
While I am in general agreement with what Sunnywood wrote, I can tell my own cautionary tale that is similar to the story in the original post. Many moons ago, I was shopping for a certified Barber half. I was fortunate enough to have a veteran collector give his opinion on the coin I had picked out. We both looked at the coin, and then walked away from the table so I could hear his thoughts. Even though the coin was in a top two holder, he told me that to him, the coin looks cleaned. Wow, that was a splash of water on my face. I had not yet heard the term "market acceptable," but in hindsight realized that was what I was looking at.
Even with my story, my rule of thumb is that for coins above $500 in value, I agree with Sunnywood's general sentiment. For higher value coins, I am extremely unlikely to buy if the coin is not in a top two holders. The exception might be coins where the bullion value is the bulk of the money (eg: gold double eagles, or eagles). For the rest, the more the coin costs, the less likely I want it in another company's holder. The slab market share for ANACS and other slabbing companies, drops dramatically as the value of the coin goes up. Most dealers will offer less, often much less, for anything other than top two holder, and it is not just because of Kool-aid. Auction results back this up, if a person looks at the average price realized. Yes, there may be occasional exceptions, but there is too much data for me to ignore.
after reading this absurd thread I have the following observation...
... opinions are like butt*oles... everyone's got one and if they are not super clean, they tend to smell funky...
That's all... back to your agreed upon disagreement...
The reality is that there are coins and then there are quality coins in various states of preservation. Spending some time to provide some thoughts with someone that may be either new to the hobby or just does not have the grading experience is an excellent gesture.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
<< <i>Looks like the OP is saving the numismatic world. >>
"Inspiration exists, but it has to find you working" Pablo Picasso
NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!!
working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
RIP "BEAR"
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<< <i>"...But the novice would be very well advised to keep it very simple: PCGS only."
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I, on the other hand, vigorously disagree. Not merely because good coins can be found in all holders, or better yet, no holders at all. Not merely because also not all classes of numismatic items are coffinated by the well-known slabbers at all. But because novices, just starting out as they are, should not be buying the "expensive" (I realize this is a relative term) coins which (supposedly) benefit from being in coffins, but rather coins, which, if they make a mistake, and let's face it, they will (we all did), will be small mistakes rather than large mistakes. I like slabs getting called security blankets, because, well, blankets just are not that good at security.
If anything, the talk of slabs as security enhancers is dangerous; the phrase"raw for a reason" has a counterpoint: "slabbed for a reason." And we know why there is slabbing: not to protect collectors, but to make money for dealers. Numerical grading is the biggest bubble this coin hobby has seen. Slabbing helped prop it up, so is stickering. But eventually, we will see that we take it too seriously.
Ed. S.
(EJS)
Ed. S.
(EJS)
<< <i>If more guys were like bidask the hobby would be better off. Dealers would be forced to clean up their act. (not the coins) >>
Maybe dealers need stickers.
This has just been added on Dick's website.
Ray
1799 XF40
(PCI) B-9 R2 Listed as a weak strike by PCI, that's a correct description for the coin. The details are mostly XF, but it has some areas of notable weakness Cleaned, now lightly retoned with a look that's somewhat natural but a little too bright. Light gold and faintly lustrous. With XF's pricing in the $4-5k range this is a decent example for a budget-minded price 2,950
<< <i>Aww, nuts. I did the stupid "post to a 100+ thread" thing again. >>
I'm still somewhat new here. What does this mean?
I was parusing Dick's inventory a few years ago, at the recommendation of this forum. I called Dick and explained that I was interested in original and uncleaned examples of bust halves for my Dansco. Dick chose two coins and sent them to me. Both were obviously dipped and one was harshly cleaned. I returned the coins and I've not spoken to or purchased coins from him since, as you only get one chance to treat me right and I don't appreciate saying one thing and doing another.
Respectfully...Mike
p.s. Kudos to you, Bidask, for doing the right thing. Bravo!
<< <i>"...But the novice would be very well advised to keep it very simple: PCGS only." >>
Do you only wear BVD's?
<< <i>
<< <i>Aww, nuts. I did the stupid "post to a 100+ thread" thing again. >>
I'm still somewhat new here. What does this mean? >>
IMO, 100+ threads have a habit of generating more heat than light (not always, of course). That's something I try not to get involved with. Failing sometimes, of course.
Ed. S.
(EJS)
NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!!
working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
RIP "BEAR"
<< <i>Of all the dealers I've ever dealt with Dick Osburn is in my top 3. In my opinion, he is an asset to the hobby. >>
I really think you should of left out the name of the dealer. You should of said, "a well respected dealer." Mentioning his name unfairly blemishes his reputation because we do not know what all Dick said to the young man.
He is an honest dealer, my personal favorite. He spent a lot of time discussing coins, educating me at a coin show when he had a lot of work to do.
It's unfair and just plain wrong. You're intentions may have been good, but not presented in proper manner.