Scotsman Eliasberg Gold Auction report (updated with show report)
RYK
Posts: 35,800 ✭✭✭✭✭
I just returned from the Scotsman auction, featuring 81 coins from the Eliasberg gold collection.
Here's how the evening went:
I was supposed to meet Doug Winter for dinner at 6:00P, but I got delayed doing an extremely difficult procedure on an extremely unfortunate 47 year old man and, after enduring an unusual traffic snarl, I finally arrived at the convention center after 7:15P. Doug and I were both hungry and cranky (not Kranky) and we grabbed a quick pizza and beer at a nearby restaurant, which was surprisingly good pizza by St. Louis standards. Doug and I are both vegetarians, there was no quibbling on the toppings, and Doug picked up the check. So far, I am up about ten bucks.
We got second row seats in the auction hall, and the gold portion of the auction started promptly at 8:15P. As expected, prices were generally strong. You can read Doug's market report next week, but suffice to say, he picked up a few nice coins. While prices were fairly strong, some coins did sell too cheap. The pace of the auction was very quick, and sometimes too quick. If I had a few more nanoseconds to think about it, I might have bid (or bid higher) on several lots. Alas, I do not have the quick and brilliant mind of the professional numismatist and had to settle for planned bids.
The coin I purchased, posted elsewhere, was a very unusual common date 1881-S $5 in an NGC-62* holder. Since I was sitting among the pros in the room (really), it became abundantly clear that most of them considered this coin to be a 3. Doug elbowed me to nudge up my bid on this and several other lots. On this one, I listened and won the coin. Often, I walk out of an auction thinking that I could have/should have/would have.... This time, I walked thinking that I purchased the coin that was most interesting to me and did not get drawn into any other traps or coins that I would regret later.
My favorite coins in the auction were probably not ones from the Eliasberg collection. There was a stunning 1850 $20 in PCGS MS-62 from an old time collection that brought close to $30,000 with the juice. Obviously, someone pegged it as a crack-out. I also really liked the 1838-C in NGC VF-35. I thought it was really nice and original for the grade and Doug encouraged me to go after it. Alas, I was outbid before I got to raise my hand.
Sitting with Doug during the auction was in many ways like sitting next to Manny Ramirez in the dugout during a baseball game. (Okay, I agree, baseball is not nearly as exciting as a coin auction.
). There was plenty of enlightening commentary and schmoozing with the other regulars, but every so often, he got really serious when it was his turn at the plate. One comment that saddened me was when he said that quite a few of the Eliasberg coins purchased tonight would be losing their connection to the pedigree imminently--the implication was that they would be cracked and processed before they even made it out of St. Louis. Such a shame! 
Another highlight for me was running into Julian in the rest room, of all places. We both ducked out during the interminable run of Indian quarter eagles. I think of Julian as the ambassador of numismatics and even in the men's room, Julian is gracious and friendly. I might stop by his table and try to get his autograph for stman, as I understand Steve collects these.
Kudos to Scotsman for running a very transparent and buyer-friendly auction. Several years ago, I was publicly critical of their auctions and business, in general. They have really turned things around in almost every area that needed improvement, and I quite frankly enjoy participating in their auctions as a bidder. The increasing number of the real pros in the crowd are a testimony to the fact that they must be doing something right. On a personal level, they have gone out of their way to offer top notch service and advice. If you have the opportunity or desire to bid in a Scotsman auction in the future, it could very well be worth your while.
Here's how the evening went:
I was supposed to meet Doug Winter for dinner at 6:00P, but I got delayed doing an extremely difficult procedure on an extremely unfortunate 47 year old man and, after enduring an unusual traffic snarl, I finally arrived at the convention center after 7:15P. Doug and I were both hungry and cranky (not Kranky) and we grabbed a quick pizza and beer at a nearby restaurant, which was surprisingly good pizza by St. Louis standards. Doug and I are both vegetarians, there was no quibbling on the toppings, and Doug picked up the check. So far, I am up about ten bucks.
We got second row seats in the auction hall, and the gold portion of the auction started promptly at 8:15P. As expected, prices were generally strong. You can read Doug's market report next week, but suffice to say, he picked up a few nice coins. While prices were fairly strong, some coins did sell too cheap. The pace of the auction was very quick, and sometimes too quick. If I had a few more nanoseconds to think about it, I might have bid (or bid higher) on several lots. Alas, I do not have the quick and brilliant mind of the professional numismatist and had to settle for planned bids.
The coin I purchased, posted elsewhere, was a very unusual common date 1881-S $5 in an NGC-62* holder. Since I was sitting among the pros in the room (really), it became abundantly clear that most of them considered this coin to be a 3. Doug elbowed me to nudge up my bid on this and several other lots. On this one, I listened and won the coin. Often, I walk out of an auction thinking that I could have/should have/would have.... This time, I walked thinking that I purchased the coin that was most interesting to me and did not get drawn into any other traps or coins that I would regret later.
My favorite coins in the auction were probably not ones from the Eliasberg collection. There was a stunning 1850 $20 in PCGS MS-62 from an old time collection that brought close to $30,000 with the juice. Obviously, someone pegged it as a crack-out. I also really liked the 1838-C in NGC VF-35. I thought it was really nice and original for the grade and Doug encouraged me to go after it. Alas, I was outbid before I got to raise my hand.
Sitting with Doug during the auction was in many ways like sitting next to Manny Ramirez in the dugout during a baseball game. (Okay, I agree, baseball is not nearly as exciting as a coin auction.
). There was plenty of enlightening commentary and schmoozing with the other regulars, but every so often, he got really serious when it was his turn at the plate. One comment that saddened me was when he said that quite a few of the Eliasberg coins purchased tonight would be losing their connection to the pedigree imminently--the implication was that they would be cracked and processed before they even made it out of St. Louis. Such a shame! Another highlight for me was running into Julian in the rest room, of all places. We both ducked out during the interminable run of Indian quarter eagles. I think of Julian as the ambassador of numismatics and even in the men's room, Julian is gracious and friendly. I might stop by his table and try to get his autograph for stman, as I understand Steve collects these.
Kudos to Scotsman for running a very transparent and buyer-friendly auction. Several years ago, I was publicly critical of their auctions and business, in general. They have really turned things around in almost every area that needed improvement, and I quite frankly enjoy participating in their auctions as a bidder. The increasing number of the real pros in the crowd are a testimony to the fact that they must be doing something right. On a personal level, they have gone out of their way to offer top notch service and advice. If you have the opportunity or desire to bid in a Scotsman auction in the future, it could very well be worth your while.
0
Comments
<< <i>RYK,
you said the following " One comment that saddened me was when he said that quite a few of the Eliasberg coins purchased tonight would be losing their connection to the pedigree imminently--the implication was that they would be cracked and processed before they even made it out of St. Louis. Such a shame! "
What exactly are you saying with this statement? >>
The coins would be removed from the holders that say Eliasberg and reholdered for the sake of getting a possible higher grade. Thereby losing the pedigree that they've had for X years.
-D
-Aristotle
Dum loquimur fugerit invida aetas. Carpe diem quam minimum credula postero.
-Horace
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>RYK,
you said the following " One comment that saddened me was when he said that quite a few of the Eliasberg coins purchased tonight would be losing their connection to the pedigree imminently--the implication was that they would be cracked and processed before they even made it out of St. Louis. Such a shame! "
What exactly are you saying with this statement? >>
The coins would be removed from the holders that say Eliasberg and reholdered for the sake of getting a possible higher grade. Thereby losing the pedigree that they've had for X years.
-D >>
Why would the pedigree be lost, same pedigreed coin just upgraded, coin can be easily matched to the Eliasberg Catalog if cracked out and submitted raw or if it was submitted in the holder and it upgraded then no research would have to be done becasue it was already pedigreed prior? >>
Perhaps the people just don't care about the pedigree and the instant monetary increase from the grade fluctuation would be satisfactory.
-D
-Aristotle
Dum loquimur fugerit invida aetas. Carpe diem quam minimum credula postero.
-Horace
<< <i>when they were raw >>
I'm only playing Devil's Advocate, but I think someone cracking and resubmitting would prefer to not have previous grade information included. Especially if the information directly connects with the service being used. From personal experience, I find people dislike correcting themselves, or admitting wrongs.
-D
-Aristotle
Dum loquimur fugerit invida aetas. Carpe diem quam minimum credula postero.
-Horace
<< <i>RYK,
you said the following " One comment that saddened me was when he said that quite a few of the Eliasberg coins purchased tonight would be losing their connection to the pedigree imminently--the implication was that they would be cracked and processed before they even made it out of St. Louis. Such a shame! "
What exactly are you saying with this statement? >>
The unstated implication is that the coins would be cracked, doctored, and resubmitted such that they were no longer recognizable as being from the Eliasberg collection.
<< <i>So what did the 30-S Saint go for? I can't find it on the website. >>
I do not remember. I thought it was overgraded, but a neat coin nonetheless.
<< <i>The unstated implication is that the coins would be cracked, doctored, and resubmitted such that they were no longer recognizable as being from the Eliasberg collection. >>
Yep. Thus camouflaging what said dealer paid for the coin as well.
I call this the "anti-pedigree" approach to selling, and I think it sucks.
<< <i>
<< <i>The unstated implication is that the coins would be cracked, doctored, and resubmitted such that they were no longer recognizable as being from the Eliasberg collection. >>
Yep. Thus camouflaging what said dealer paid for the coin as well.
I call this the "anti-pedigree" approach to selling, and I think it sucks. >>
It is a truly sad aspect of the hobby...ego and registry competition deprive the rest of a chance to know something about the history of a coin and who owned it before us.
Just wondering why you bought this coin? Are you collecting gold again?
Another highlight for me was running into Julian in the rest room, of all places.
Do you know that old joke about meeting Cary Grant in a restroom? Hope that didn't happen...
It's more about the greed and profit than the things that you mention.
Just wondering why you bought this coin? Are you collecting gold again?
I am working on my Box of 20 gold coins, and I am always attracted to coins from the Big Three™ generational collections.
Perhaps, but if you visit the Eliasberg Catalog you will see most of the coins were originally graded lower by Bowers when they were raw than they are slabbed today. It would be quite normal in fact to see an Eliasberg 2 to 3 grade points higher than what the Catalog contains. Now keeping the pedigree can only bring even more money due to the significance of the pedigree, by leaving it off one is probably leaving money on the table imho. There is no benefit by leaving the pedigree off after an upgrade, so that is why I questioned what RYK heard during the auction unless there is something going on in this hobby that I am not aware of.
I purchased some old holder pedigreed coins about 6 years ago at auction and felt they were "basically" upgrades. And so did some of the competition. I paid strong money for them. The thought occurred to me that I should not maintain the pedigree because there might be a "stigma" attached to "upgraded" coins. But sanity prevailed and I had the pedigrees left intact. Both were in the top 2 of the condition census for the dates. They all upgraded. While anyone can check the original auction catalogs and see that they are now a point higher than they were previously, it is just as obvious how conservatively graded they were in the first place when submitted in 1992.
Let's get the story straight with Eliasberg coins. Many of them, if not most were graded rather liberally by PCGS and NGC. Remember, this was 1997 when the market was at a long term bottom and selling coins was tough. The Eliasberg coins were a much needed shot in the arm and the TPG's were not going to rain on anyone's parade. There are lots of Eliasberg coins still wandering in the market because they are lucky to be in the holders they are. Occasionaly someone who doesn't know any better cracks out an ogh Eliasberg coin figuring they have a "score." In some cases they can come back lower today. I'm sure there must have been undergraded Eliasberg coins made, I've just never seen one. Then again any of those popping up in front of a major dealer would get scarfed instantly and upgraded before you could say "shazaam." If there were Eliasberg coins upgrading 2-3 pts., I've never heard of them....at least not on MS61-67 coins. 2-3 pts on circ coins is well within the tolerances of grading errors. And just because Bowers undergraded many of the Eliasberg MS seated and bust coins by 1-3 pts. doesn't mean that the bidders and grading services did.
The 1996 Pittman sale coins were also liberally graded. Maybe one could say that the 1995-1999 era was a time during market recovery when grading relaxed a tad. During that period NGC was offering dealers free upgrade reviews. One of my local dealers was typically getting back 60-80% upgrades on the coins he submitted. I could compare the results to bulk submittals (ie upgrades were going to come back). The services needed income too.
roadrunner
Brilliant. And later, they charged a percentage of the coin's value to NCS and upgrade it. Even more brilliant!
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>As long as PCGS and NGC reward the processing and dipping of coins with higher grades, dealers will continue processing and dipping coins because most of them only care about how much they can make off the coins that pass through their greedy hands. Sad, isn't it? >>
post of the day.
<< <i>and even in the men's room, Julian is gracious and friendly.
(insert favorite Larry Craig joke here.......)
It is important to remember that the Eliasberg gold coins were sold in a separate sale in 1982. Most gold coin specialists feel that the grades offered by the catalogers (Bowers and Ruddy Auctions, at the time) were conservative even then. By today's standards, they were very conservative. I think NGC made up for this and overshot the grades in many cases. There were numerous AU-58's in this sale which I thought were 53's on a good day--a very good day. There were one or two no-grades (or NCS encapsulated coins) which I felt were as worthy or more worthy than some of the coins in NGC slabs. FWIW, Doug thought the coin I bought was undergraded. Upgrades were few and far between in this 81 coin assemblage.
<< <i>Let's get the story straight with Eliasberg coins. Many of them, if not most were graded rather liberally by PCGS and NGC. Remember, this was 1997 when the market was at a long term bottom and selling coins was tough.
It is important to remember that the Eliasberg gold coins were sold in a separate sale in 1982. Most gold coin specialists feel that the grades offered by the catalogers (Bowers and Ruddy Auctions, at the time) were conservative even then. By today's standards, they were very conservative. >>
Agreed.
I also liked the 1881-S half-eagle, in fact I was the high bidder after the online session. I liked the cameo look with reflective fields. Congratulations on getting a nice coin.
I was also just outbid on the 1856 Eliasberg $20, but did get the 1874 Eliasberg $20.
Since Realone originally mentioned the above, I assumed he was refering to the Eliasberg silver coins in 1997. The 1982 sale was a whole different animal, but similarly still sold sold at the bottom of a coin market. When I graded a number of the Eliasberg Liberty gold coins I was typically 1-2 points off (my bad, not the market). And the cataloguer at the time was no different. Considering that floor buyers purchased 95+% of an auction prior to the last few years, it made little difference what grade a cataloguer assigned. The buyers would still grade 'em and buy them for what they really were.
Auction houses love to sell coins to the floor because there are no returns. And bidders love to bid on stupidly undergraded lots because it makes them feel smarter than everyone else when they pay an obscene price and look like a hero. Dealers love to attend sales were key lots are undergraded. They are assured of getting the lion's share of the good coins because the halpless mail or internet bidders are going by the description as listed. And auction houses salt sales with said lots to keep the dealers coming and buying. Hey, there has to be some advantage to the dealers besides them being better graders. There is another axiom in cataloging in that researchers catalog and good graders buy and sell coins. There's a good reason for that.
I recall a Sotheby's sale in 1988 where the lots were all graded by European standards. I purchased one lot of 5 half dimes where nothing was called higher than XF. Those were graded out 63-65.
I also bought an 1850-0 half dime in that sale graded AU I believe. It went MS65 on its first time in to NGC in 1988. Yeah, I paid $3000 for an AU half dime with a CDN bid of under $150. The catalog would have been zero help to anyone not checking lots in person.
roadrunner
I bought an 1855-O G$1 PCGS AU-53, the exact grade I have been seeking for some time. Doug had it in his newp stack, and I scooped it up immediately. I also bought three DBHs from Harry Laibstain (two photos below).
I had nice conversations with Harry, Julian, Jim Matthews (HLRC), Jim McGuigan (fellow Pittsburgher and Steelers fan), Numisma, James Garcia, and Dennis Garstang. I showed Julian my OP, and he said that he did not think the Eliasberg coins were bought to be cracked out and processed. He thought most would be sold as is, and, in retrospect, there probably were few upgrades in the group.
I also met up with fellow collector and forum member, habaraca, and he proudly showed my son a Potty Buffalo nickel. On first glance, it looked like a regular 1937 5c, but when you turned it over, Black Diamond was on the can. What will they think of next?!
My son surprised me by informing me that he wanted to collect something different, something older (that's my boy!) and settled on bust halves (you can't win 'em all). We sat down at Dick Osburn's table and picked out two winners among the uncertified bust halves (1829/7 and 1830), and Dick gave Jack an excellent price and some words of encouragement.
The show was very slow. Scotsman closed up auction pick-up a few minutes before I walked up, and Heritage closed up lot viewing minutes before I walked up to there table. Two disappointments. The place was literally shutting down around me, and I decided to leave at that point. The show had only a couple hours to go, and was turning into a ghost town.
What did I see of interest?
More 1799 $10's than I have ever seen in one location
A group of ACG-graded Saints
A very nice 1795 half dime in XF-45 that I may still purchase
No one else wearing a Steelers jersey
Very, very little bullion coins
Very few children
Very overpriced and low quality refreshments
Wouldn't that be a potty half dime?
Doug Winter has two of the Eliasberg gold coins up for sale on his website. If anyone wants one and missed the auction, this is an opportunity. Both are relatively low in price (compared to most of his offerings).
Disclosure: I have no ownership interest in these coins.
<< <i>As I commented in your other thread, RYK, you must have been hiding behind a potted palm
Wow, that's a bummer. I only came for the second (Eliasberg gold, gold, commems) session and sat in the second row between Doug Winter on my left and some young dude from NFC on right. BTW, the young dude (Matt) read my report here and told me so when I ran into him at the show.
<< <i>Wow, that's a bummer. I only came for the second (Eliasberg gold, gold, commems) session and sat in the second row between Doug Winter on my left and some young dude from NFC on right. BTW, the young dude (Matt) read my report here and told me so when I ran into him at the show. >>
That "young dude" and I do plently of business together. We even outbid each other in auctions. Apparently he must be a lurker here, also.
<< <i>
<< <i>So what did the 30-S Saint go for? I can't find it on the website. >>
I do not remember. I thought it was overgraded, but a neat coin nonetheless. >>
It sold for $195,500. The Stella did not sell.
If the services graded original gold properly, this travesty would never have developed. Instead, they have rewarded bright dipped coins with upgrades, and that has fostered a generational wave of "conservation."
Best,
Sunnywood
Sunnywood's Rainbow-Toned Morgans (Retired)
Sunnywood's Barber Quarters (Retired)
<< <i>The risk is not just that they would be cracked out and resubmitted, but rather that they would be cracked out and "conserved" at NCS in the hopes of finding a higher grade afterwards. After conservation, the coins would be harder to trace - especially true of gold dollars, given their small size, which make diagnostic marks harder to recognize.
If the services graded original gold properly, this travesty would never have developed. Instead, they have rewarded bright dipped coins with upgrades, and that has fostered a generational wave of "conservation."
Best,
Sunnywood >>
Well said.
Didn't wanna get me no trade
Never want to be like papa
Working for the boss every night and day
--"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)
<< <i>FYI:
Doug Winter has two of the Eliasberg gold coins up for sale on his website. If anyone wants one and missed the auction, this is an opportunity. Both are relatively low in price (compared to most of his offerings).
Disclosure: I have no ownership interest in these coins. >>
These two coins have gone on "hold".