Are "NT" coins a bunch of baloney?
ecichlid
Posts: 1,212 ✭✭✭
OK, I didn't want to use the word "baloney". And I'm a novice, so forgive my ignorance of the question.
When I look at grandma's old silver she left behind, or for that matter, any antique silver, I can't find theses explosions of color that I see on some collectors coins? Why is that? Why is it that all of my old silver coins, that I have held on for many years, have toned to any ugly brown or I received them that way.
What's the difference between a coin that has interesting colors from coming out of an old envelope or a coin album vs. a Taco Bell napkin sitting on a window sill? Is one NT and the other AT?
For that matter, what's the difference between a coin that gets toning from sitting in a coin album vs one that was produced with the heat of an oven soaking in motor oil? (ok, maybe not a good example, but you know what I mean).
Where is the official list of acceptable methods of natural toning?! Aren't all chemical reactions that are occur artificial? At least the ones that produce these amazing colors?
I'm not trying to make a point here. I'm asking questions. I do admit I like the look of a copper Lincoln I purchased with some attractive ruby red toning, but it's funny that over the years, all of my old copper turned brown on the obverse in the Whitman folder and stayed "fresh copper red" on the reverse. No explosions of color. Nada. None.
I guess I'm just unlucky. Maybe I should dip those old brown silver coins and sell them to one of these guys who is luckier than me.
Are "NT" coins a bunch of baloney? Isn't NT and AT the same thing?
When I look at grandma's old silver she left behind, or for that matter, any antique silver, I can't find theses explosions of color that I see on some collectors coins? Why is that? Why is it that all of my old silver coins, that I have held on for many years, have toned to any ugly brown or I received them that way.
What's the difference between a coin that has interesting colors from coming out of an old envelope or a coin album vs. a Taco Bell napkin sitting on a window sill? Is one NT and the other AT?
For that matter, what's the difference between a coin that gets toning from sitting in a coin album vs one that was produced with the heat of an oven soaking in motor oil? (ok, maybe not a good example, but you know what I mean).
Where is the official list of acceptable methods of natural toning?! Aren't all chemical reactions that are occur artificial? At least the ones that produce these amazing colors?
I'm not trying to make a point here. I'm asking questions. I do admit I like the look of a copper Lincoln I purchased with some attractive ruby red toning, but it's funny that over the years, all of my old copper turned brown on the obverse in the Whitman folder and stayed "fresh copper red" on the reverse. No explosions of color. Nada. None.
I guess I'm just unlucky. Maybe I should dip those old brown silver coins and sell them to one of these guys who is luckier than me.
Are "NT" coins a bunch of baloney? Isn't NT and AT the same thing?
There is no "AT" or "NT". We only have "market acceptable" or "not market acceptable.
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(AT) IS DONE IN MINUTES OR EVEN SECONDS..
LIKE A REAL DIAMOND AND A LAB DIAMOND...
THE ARE BOTH DIAMONDS BUT ONE IS PURE AND NATURAL
NOT MAN MADE...HENCE NATURAL TONE AND
ARTIFICIAL(CREATED) TONE!
-PAUL
when they are not...you find happy collectors as better things can be thought of
why be sad of grannies coins and jealous of others...that's the answer you need to resolve
I guess I should clarify, when I wrote "grandma's old silver", I did not mean coins. I meant silverware and such. I get a sense lasvegasteddy that you are being dismissive of the question because it requires some thought on the answer. There is no jealousy here. Let's keep this to coins, not how anyone feels.
I'm not trying to get too technical, I love coins and the hobby. Perhaps NT vs AT is a mater of perspective. That is, each person draws their own line. Influencing this decision is also the amount of education that have on the subject. So any debate on "Is this coin NT?" is really a pointless one. I can now see why third party graders use terms like "questionable toning". Even they aren't sure what process justifies natural toning.
I'm just trying to wrap my brain around this.
Otoh, shake and baked, torched, chemically enhanced, etc. were done with the sole intent of turning the coins "colorful". There is also no "story to tell" with these coins. The originality and historical allure is taken away and the coin "loses" something in the eye of the collector.
That is my two cents....There are perhaps 100's of threads dealing with and debating this subject if you use the forum's search engine.
Collector of Early 20th Century U.S. Coinage.
ANA Member R-3147111
As per the silverware from your grandmother, there are at least two very important differences between that and coinage. The first is that silverware and coin silver are generally not the same finess silver and this has a strong affect on the ability to tone, the speed of toning and the colors obtained. The second is that the silverware has most likely been polished or cleaned dozens of times over the years and most of these methods deposit sulfur on the surface that readily and rapidly turns deep navy blue, purple or black. Generally, coins are not treated in the same manner.
If you have real questions on toning I would be happy to disucss things via PM, but I have found over the years that discussions of toning on the boards are not only contentious, they are filled with half-truths, cut-and-paste quotes that might not be relevant and hidden agendas.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
<< <i>People get all bent out of shape over toning, however, if you want a largely educated overview on toning you should read my website, which is linked in my signature line. This is not spam since I don't sell coins from my website. Regardless, much of what you read on these boards, both pro and con, regarding toning is simply incorrect.
As per the silverware from your grandmother, there are at least two very important differences between that and coinage. The first is that silverware and coin silver are generally not the same finess silver and this has a strong affect on the ability to tone, the speed of toning and the colors obtained. The second is that the silverware has most likely been polished or cleaned dozens of times over the years and most of these methods deposit sulfur on the surface that readily and rapidly turns deep navy blue, purple or black. Generally, coins are not treated in the same manner.
If you have real questions on toning I would be happy to disucss things via PM, but I have found over the years that discussions of toning on the boards are not only contentious, they are filled with half-truths, cut-and-paste quotes that might not be relevant and hidden agendas. >>
Well said.
Yes, you are. Only a few select lucky dealers & lucky collectors to have lucky enough to have that assplosion of color on a few lucky coins.
Most so-called NT is in fact baloney.
<< <i>Are "NT" coins a bunch of baloney? Isn't NT and AT the same thing? >>
I commend you on your wisdom in knowing where to come with your questions, Grasshopper. To put it bluntly, NT Coins are those you buy from a smiling Coin Dealer.
AT Coins are those you have created yourself with whatever means.
Are you seeing the wisdom now? Great, now go out into the world and buy from the Dealers before the coins in their inventory turn black.
not dismissive just thought about that stuff enough for one lifetime but i'll toss you this...,
air is an elemental composition of gases...if you control it's composition... is that not artificial to begin with?
that proposition alone pays tribute to all the other exposures coins are subjected too (many)
there is such a redundant amount of technical applications of theories here that...you can ponder all the technical roots you like and still not see the beauty of a tree muchless a forest if you choose too...have fun...i do
toned coins were all the rage and magically they became available.
guess what will happen next in due time... more coins will become
available to fill the demand this hobby creates in whatever the flavor
of the decade is.
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
Of course not; that is "baloney" as you would say. If you have any basic knowledge of chemistry, you will understand that countless chemical reactions occur naturally at every moment. In fact it would be extraordinary (and lethal to all of us) if chemical reactions did not occur naturally. It would therefore be extremely unusual for a coin's surfaces to remain completely inert, i.e. non-reactive, over long periods of time.
It is natural for toning to occur on silver and copper coins in most ordinary storage conditions. It is absolutely unnatural to dip the coins and strip off the toning layer. Dipped coins have altered surfaces, artificially whitened or cleaned, with base metal atoms actually removed (assuming the dipping bath is reactive enough to strip toning).
Toning is artificial if it is intentionally induced and/or accelerated by the addition of heat or chemicals. I think that's a pretty straightforward definition. It is natural for older coins, especially silver and copper coins, to have toning. Artificial toning is undesirable because it is not natural - but dipping is equally artificial, unnatural and undesirable. Although it can be difficult, and perhaps in some cases impossible to tell the difference, those of us who prefer coins with natural surfaces will always prefer NT over either AT or dipped white coins.
If you are collecting coins like your icon, which is obviously a newer issue, then you may be able to find naturally untoned examples. But if you collect 19th century type coins, you should be aware that the "white" silver coins are generally dipped coins with chemically altered surfaces. Red copper is another matter - it is not really possible to dip copper with any kind of natural looking result. For copper to remain red over time it must form an essentially invisible stable protective layer of toning. Under ideal circumstances, that is theoretically possible.
There are many more issues, and I don't want to get into the usual debates, but I hope these points enlighten your viewpoint. As a novice, you might want to gain more experience before you dismiss what other people collect as "baloney."
Best,
Sunnywood
Sunnywood's Rainbow-Toned Morgans (Retired)
Sunnywood's Barber Quarters (Retired)
<< <i>OK, I didn't want to use the word "baloney". >>
Did someone force you to use it? Very passive-agressive style post.
merse
<< <i>The ugly toned coins are dipped or cleaned. Only the pretty ones are left alone (sometimes not even those) >>
I agree in part. It's sort of a blanket statement, Frank. I think I know what you mean.
When ugly toners with great strikes are dipped/stripped of their ugly, they often dazzle with brilliance. If those who cared about coins really cared, these coins wouldn't be ugly in the first place and the beauty of the original skin and strike would be appreciated for what it is, naturally.
The bottom line for many a coin dealer is profit. How else does he get his children into Harvard or other elite schools ? It takes a lot of money and often a diet of balogna.
I'm just sayin' ... not blamin' anyone in particular.
( This is just another perspective, and not necessarily mine)
I've acquired a taste for spam here. Even on the boards , there is a lot of baloney to sort through. One of the things that make a cherrypicker's dream come true is digging through it !
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
<< <i>Most of the monster toned coins are AT, most of the colorful supposedly bag toned morgans are AT. What it comes down to is whats acceptable to the coin world..... >>
There are many AT coins out there, particularly in the area of early type. In that respect, it is true that it devolves to "what is acceptable." However, you are quite mistaken in saying that most monster-toned coins are AT. There are many high-end coins out there with magnificent toning acquired naturally. And you are completely and utterly incorrect about colorful bag-toned Morgans. Your statement is simply wrong. Here are some examples of colorfully naturally toned Morgans. I have selected coins with unmistakable natural rainbow bag toning, rather than album or envelope toning.
In the process of building a collection of toned Morgan dollars (not to mention other series such as the Barber quarters), I have looked at literally thousands and thousands of coins. I will stake my experience and expertise against sweeping falsehoods about these coins any day. By the way, the last two coins below are "O" mints - two issues that are extremely rare with original rainbow bag toning like this. Of course, if you don't like these coins, there are plenty of "white" coins out there for you to enjoy instead.
Best,
Sunnywood
Sunnywood's Rainbow-Toned Morgans (Retired)
Sunnywood's Barber Quarters (Retired)