Title changed: A legit 1944P nickel, a Henning nickel and Hmmm.. I'm not sure nickel.
Robb
Posts: 2,034 ✭
*Title of thread was changed to reflect the changing of topic.*
I'm wanting to know if a coin has silver in it. If it does, it would be around the 35% silver mark but if it doesn't then there wouldn't be any trace of silver at all. Any ideas as to how to test for silver content?
I'm wanting to know if a coin has silver in it. If it does, it would be around the 35% silver mark but if it doesn't then there wouldn't be any trace of silver at all. Any ideas as to how to test for silver content?
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Comments
Even specific gravity is no good since the the other metals would largely be unknown.
Thats the first and cheapest step.
All other steps can get a little expensive.
The name is LEE!
<< <i>Identify the coin, find out what its weight is supposed to be and then weigh your coin.
Thats the first and cheapest step.
All other steps can get a little expensive. >>
Weight is supposed to be 5grams.
Coin is question is 4.98grams.
<< <i>Weight is supposed to be 5grams.
Coin is question is 4.98grams. >>
Close enough
<< <i>
<< <i>Weight is supposed to be 5grams.
Coin is question is 4.98grams. >>
Close enough
I think I'm on to something really special here. I think I either have a counterfeit of a counterfeit or a very rare Mint item.
<< <i>Did you get it from a dark alley or from the back of a pickup truck at the local 7-11? >>
Nope. Bought it as a specific counterfeit from another collector but I don't think it's the "real" thing.
Better yetm what coin are you referring to, a 1944 Henning Nickel?
If you are, then the coinfacts.com website states: "1944 nickels without the mint mark on the reverse are counterfeits." Not some of them are counterfeits and some original specimens exist but simply, "1944 nickels without the mint mark on the reverse are counterfeits."
The name is LEE!
<< <i>Better yetm what coin are you referring to, a 1944 Henning Nickel? >>
That's what I thought of when I heard 35%.
<< <i>Is the coin supposed to have a specific silver content? >>
If legit from the U.S. Mint, it is to have 35% silver.
<< <i>Better yetm what coin are you referring to, a 1944 Henning Nickel? >>
Yep, good eye.
<< <i>If you are, then the coinfacts.com website states: "1944 nickels without the mint mark on the reverse are counterfeits." Not some of them are counterfeits and some original specimens exist but simply, "1944 nickels without the mint mark on the reverse are counterfeits." >>
Indeed. Red Book says the same. I may or may not have information to the contrary. I'm working on putting it all together at the moment.
A genuine mint product would have a normal R.
You may a mint made nickel that has had the mintmark removed if the R is normal.
Ray
Legit 1944P War Time Nickel:
Images from numismaticenquirer.com
Note: War Time Nickels featured their Mint Mark on the reverse above Monticello.
Weight: 5 grams
Diameter: .831"
Thickness: .072"
Metal composition-
56% Copper
35% Silver
9% Manganese
1944 "no-P" Henning Nickel:
Images from numismaticenquirer.com
Note: Mint Mark that should be above Monticello is missing. There is a loop in the "R" of "PLURIBUS".
Of the three 1944 examples that were submitted to the Secret Service by collectors Walter L. Williams and A. Wayne Rowe, they broke down like this:
Walter L. Williams:
Weight: 5.4 grams
Diameter: .838"
Thickness: .080"
A. Wayne Rowe:
Weight: 5.27 grams
Diameter: .840"
Thickness: .077"
Weight: 5.24 grams
Diameter: .838"
Thickness: .076"
My personal Henning:
Weight: 5.44 grams
Diameter: .838"
Thickness: .077"
Metal composition per the Secret Service-
79.1% Copper
20.48% Nickel
.35% Iron
1944 "no-P" Nickel in question:
Images by board member savoyspecial
Note: As with the Henning, the Mint Mark above Monticello is missing. Unlike the Henning, there is not a loop in the "R" in "PLURIBUS". There is what appears to be a die crack through "URIB".
Weight: 4.98 grams
Diameter: .833"
Thickness: .072"
Metal Composition-
Unknown
In a nutshell: The Henning Nickels are bigger than their legit counterparts in every sense. The nickel in question is the exact thickness of a legit nickel. It's diameter is a mere .002" bigger- well within tolerance. It's weight is .02 light- something that can be chalked up to wear from circulation. It does not have the giveaway diagnostic of a Henning- the loop in the "R". It has a die crack that, to my knowledge, has never been documented in a Henning nickel before.
Now to change direction somewhat, I want to quote a couple of things from "The Counterfeit 1944 Jefferson Nickel" by Dwight H. Stuckey:
"...Agent Motto (Secret Service) wrote in his report-
'Same date [December 15, 1954], interview was had with Mrs. Margaret Bainbridge, Clerk, U.S. Mint, Philadelphia, who advised that during the war years the metal used in the coining of five cent pieces was scarce and as a result, silver was substituted which accounted for the slightly different color. She further advised that the Philadelphia Mint does not always put its letter on the coins minted. As suspected, the coins are genuine...'
...In retrospect, it is difficult to understand t he thinking of the Secret Service and the Philadelphia Mint that day, for Agent Motto also wrote, '...the coins were a little different in color... they did not have the letter of the mint on the reverse side...' This is particularly interesting, since most coin collectors know the silver wartime nickels did have the "P" mint mark. What were the dates on these nickels? Could they have been Henning "no-P" nickels? Did the Mint neglect to do a metal analysis of them? If they were Henning nickels, the Mint must not have analyzed the metal content, as Henning's nickels did not have any silver content. Another conclusion is possible, however. In Agent Krill's letter back to Mr. Bissig on December 15, Krill mentions the year 1944. Could there have been a 1944 nickel made without the mint mark? Ultimately, only these facts are clear: the $2.40 in nickels which the Secret Service picked up from Mr. Bissig were declared genuine by both the Mint and the Secret Service."
And also:
"...A lot of other people in Philadelphis read that newspaper article. (About the Secret Service discovering counterfeit nickels.) One of the most interesting responses came from a Mr. Irving Golden, on the evening of June 3, 1955. He told Agent Krill that he had a "no-P" 1944 nickel, but that this one wasn't counterfeit. He also told Krill that he worked at the Mint from 1942-1946, and "... a lot of funny things went on during that time, etc., etc." On June 6, 1955, Mr. Golden took his "no-P" 1944 nickel to Agent Krill. Golden's nickel didn't have the flaw in the "R", and Golden also told Krill that during the war years there was not good control over the dies at the Mint. In the June 24, 1981 edition of Coin World, William T. Gibbs wrote an interesting article about wartime coins and paper money. In it, Gibbs wrote, "Again, whether it [sloppy workmanship and practices] was done by relatively inexperienced personnel replacing older Mint workers, who had joined the service, or on purpose because of the demands of wartime coinage, is not known." Could this be what Mr. Golden meant?
On June 9, 1955, Agent Krill wrote Mr. Golden and told him that his 1944 "no-P" nickel was counterfeit. Golden still disagreed, and insisted that it was genuine."
Well, that's a helluva lot to digest but that's all of the information that I have. I think I have it boiled down to these possibilities:
1. Legit issue by the Mint missing it's mint mark.
2. Henning nickel that used a die that hasn't been documented or accounted for. (There were 6 dies made for multiple years by Henning. 5 were accounted for, the sixth was assumed to be 1954. Technically it's possible that this sixth could have been another used for 1944 but not very likely.)
3. Counterfeit of the Henning. (Certainly possible but I would think that copycat would include the loop in the "R".)
4. Mint mark was machined off. (I don't see any signs of it, personally, but it's possible. I have a couple of machined mint mark Lincolns in my collection and on the smaller scale of a Lincoln you can still tell that it's been tampered with.)
Knowing the metal content of the nickel in question would help tremendously.
Your opinions?
The name is LEE!
The specific gravity of war nickels and regular nickels are different. I have no idea how Hennings would fall into this scale, but my guess is that their specific gravity is probably similar to regular nickels, and may not be readily differentiated by such a mean.
In response to another note on this thread, there is an ANACS (ANAAB?) authenticated 1944 no mintmark nickel, presumably from a filled die. I'll check an auction catalog to see if I can find it.
Ed. S.
(EJS)
I have contacted a handful of people via snail mail, email and in person. I'm having a helluva time finding someone that is first familiar with a Henning nickel and then willing to think outside the box.
At this point I don't need to know the exact metal composition of the coin in question. All I need to know is if it even has a slight trace of silver in it. Knowing whether it does or not will determine which way to continue the pursuit.
Kinda frustrating.
<< <i>In response to another note on this thread, there is an ANACS (ANAAB?) authenticated 1944 no mintmark nickel, presumably from a filled die. I'll check an auction catalog to see if I can find it. >>
Correcting myself. It's a 1943 no mintmark nickel (war nickel composition) I was thinking of, not 1944. Has an ANAAB cert. See Bowers & Merena, March 1992, lot 2241. I still lean to it being a filled die.
The 1944 error coins I was thinking of were 1944-P nickels struck in the pre-war composition. Look in the Heritage archives for multiple examples. (And by multiple, I mean at least two.)
Ed. S.
(EJS)
<< <i>
<< <i>In response to another note on this thread, there is an ANACS (ANAAB?) authenticated 1944 no mintmark nickel, presumably from a filled die. I'll check an auction catalog to see if I can find it. >>
Correcting myself. It's a 1943 no mintmark nickel (war nickel composition) I was thinking of, not 1944. Has an ANAAB cert. See Bowers & Merena, March 1992, lot 2241. I still lean to it being a filled die.
The 1944 error coins I was thinking of were 1944-P nickels struck in the pre-war composition. Look in the Heritage archives for multiple examples. (And by multiple, I mean at least two.) >>
Tyvm for updating.