1952 Mantle. What if...
1989FleerBillRipkencollector
Posts: 4,590
...this didnt happen. What would his card be worth?
Around 1960, during a spring cleaning effort at the Topps Brooklyn headquarters, Sy hired a garbage boat, loaded 300 to 500 cases of 1952 high-series cards, and rode with them as a tugboat pulled them off the New Jersey shore. The cards were then dumped into the Atlantic Ocean. [1] The cards included Mickey Mantle's first Topps card, the most valuable card of the modern era
Around 1960, during a spring cleaning effort at the Topps Brooklyn headquarters, Sy hired a garbage boat, loaded 300 to 500 cases of 1952 high-series cards, and rode with them as a tugboat pulled them off the New Jersey shore. The cards were then dumped into the Atlantic Ocean. [1] The cards included Mickey Mantle's first Topps card, the most valuable card of the modern era
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Comments
<< <i>That is just a myth and has yet to be proven. >>
You might wanna do some more research on this.
Steve
PoppaJ
Shane
Raw: Tony Gonzalez (low #'d cards, and especially 1/1's) and Steve Young.
<< <i>I would venture to say, no difference in price. It is not the rarity that makes that card worth something, but rather the demand. Just think, if they did dump 300-500 cases, how many cases were not dumped? >>
I must respectfully disagree. If they were as plentiful as 1987 Topps, they wouldn't be worth much. However, what if only 1,000 existed? They would "break the bank". It is SUPPLY AND DEMAND working together.
Shane
Those X-Mas racks. Topps started racks in what, 1966 or 68 (I'm leaving work, no time to research) I have seen X-Mas racks from 2 years later than that for sale. Why would they sell off commons to make racks when they made them? I have only read one person who said they saw these packs back in the day. A guy who was buying and pimpimg them, not outright selling them but claiming he had a source for 52's etc hint hint email me hint. At least that's how I took it.
<< <i>A guy who was buying and pimpimg them, not outright selling them but claiming he had a source for 52's etc hint hint email me hint. >>
I remember that guy on the eBay board. He only talked about how great the packs were but never would post a pic. He wanted you to give him your email so he could email the pics. The pic he sent to me had the little eBay photo symbol in the bottom right corner. Wonder where he got the pic from?
<< <i>What? 20 boxes per case, assume 1 Mantle per box. 6,000-10,000 more Mantles out there. Yes the demand is huge but that has to lower the price a little bit, I would assume. >>
I would definitely agree. It might not make a gigantic difference, but definite some.
The supply and demand rule is mostly limited to commodities, and much less so to sport cards. I purchased 2 1 of 1's this last week, one for $5 and the other for $2.50.
Raw: Tony Gonzalez (low #'d cards, and especially 1/1's) and Steve Young.
Steve
<< <i>Demand is much greater of a price factor then supply, gold and diamonds are far from rare and quite valuable. I use to deal in meteorites, which were worth 1/100th of what a diamond is, and yet 1000 times more rare.
The supply and demand rule is mostly limited to commodities, and much less so to sport cards. I purchased 2 1 of 1's this last week, one for $5 and the other for $2.50. >>
I am just saying that supply working TOGETHER with demand makes apple A more valuable than apple B. You are talking about apples (diamonds) and oranges (meteorites). If you compare diamonds now to multitudes of millions of diamonds more than there are now, the price would go down. In other words, if diamonds were as common as leaves on a tree, they still may be valuable because of demand, just not AS valuable as they are now.
To put it in baseball card terms, if you compare the number of 52 Mantles now versus a 52 Topps Mantle with thousands more in circulation, you can clearly see that they would not be worth as much with thousands more in circulation. But if you take a 52 Mantle versus a 1988 Topps Cloth Ozzie Smith, that scenario would fit your argument because even though there are thousands more 52 Mantles than there are 88 Cloth Ozzie Smiths, the 52 Topps Mantles are worth much more because the demand is greater. You have to compare apples to apples.
I hope that made sense.
Shane
<< <i>Sy Berger himself has said that he dumped them.
Steve >>
Bingo! Yeah, I read an article where he did state just that to the reporter. It happened, and it's not a myth.
<< <i>
<< <i>Demand is much greater of a price factor then supply, gold and diamonds are far from rare and quite valuable. I use to deal in meteorites, which were worth 1/100th of what a diamond is, and yet 1000 times more rare.
The supply and demand rule is mostly limited to commodities, and much less so to sport cards. I purchased 2 1 of 1's this last week, one for $5 and the other for $2.50. >>
I am just saying that supply working TOGETHER with demand makes apple A more valuable than apple B. You are talking about apples (diamonds) and oranges (meteorites). If you compare diamonds now to multitudes of millions of diamonds more than there are now, the price would go down. In other words, if diamonds were as common as leaves on a tree, they still may be valuable because of demand, just not AS valuable as they are now.
To put it in baseball card terms, if you compare the number of 52 Mantles now versus a 52 Topps Mantle with thousands more in circulation, you can clearly see that they would not be worth as much with thousands more in circulation. But if you take a 52 Mantle versus a 1988 Topps Cloth Ozzie Smith, that scenario would fit your argument because even though there are thousands more 52 Mantles than there are 88 Cloth Ozzie Smiths, the 52 Topps Mantles are worth much more because the demand is greater. You have to compare apples to apples.
I hope that made sense. >>
"But if you take a 52 Mantle versus a 1988 Topps Cloth Ozzie Smith." I think that is a good comparison.
I was more noting it is demand that fuels prices over rarity, unless one is talking commodities. Commodities are different because they have a constant needed demand. I could give endless examples of things that are rare and worthless, and things that are quite common and worth a lot.
This is more true in sport cards I believe then any other field.
Also one must consider that if the cases did exist, that those cards would have the same survival rate of other 1952 Topps cards. What percent has survived is beyond my knowledge, but it is hard assume they would all still be here, when this is not true at all with their counterparts .
So to be a little more accurate to history, lets say 300 survived. I see no price change, outside of the card itself for what it is.
Another good example is the T-206 Wagner. There use to be a dozen known in the 70s, now there are several dozen, and yet the price is what 15-20 times it was. I think it is safe to say, if you found another 2-3 dozen, it would not drop the value any...unless all of them were sold at the same time or in a like manner.
Another example, I think most would agree that since PSA, the supply of 80s boxes is less then what it is now. Yet, most of the big guys, the 1985 McGwire, the 1985 Clemens cards, the 1986 Donruss Canseco, even the 82 Ripken....are worth MUCH less then they were....in some cases...maybe 10% their former value. It is not supply that drove the prices down.....or up years ago....it was demand.
Mark
Raw: Tony Gonzalez (low #'d cards, and especially 1/1's) and Steve Young.
<< <i> However, what if only 1,000 existed? They would "break the bank". >>
Perhaps not. Too little supply can kill demand. The demand for 1952 Topps is in part because people associate those cards with the beginning of modern baseball card collecting. If only 1 000 sets of '52 Topps were made (or survived) people would not make that connection. Same reason why t206 cards sell for more than many rarer cards from the same era
<< <i>
<< <i>A guy who was buying and pimpimg them, not outright selling them but claiming he had a source for 52's etc hint hint email me hint. >>
I remember that guy on the eBay board. He only talked about how great the packs were but never would post a pic. He wanted you to give him your email so he could email the pics. The pic he sent to me had the little eBay photo symbol in the bottom right corner. Wonder where he got the pic from? >>
lol I just PM you on this. Yeah it was ebay. He never sent me pics when I emailed him.
<< <i>
<< <i>Sy Berger himself has said that he dumped them.
Steve >>
Bingo! Yeah, I read an article where he did state just that to the reporter. It happened, and it's not a myth. >>
I read a quote from him as well on it. Unsure where though.
1996 Select Certified Mirror Gold Ozzie Smith
2006 Bowman Chrome Orange Refractor Chris Carpenter
I know for a fact that US-issued 1952 high number series packs were sold in Venezuela - the first year Topps ventured into that market. They didn't actually begin printing the cards specifically for the Venezuelan market until 1959, but between 1952-1958, US cards (only the high numbered series each year) were shipped direct to Venezuela. I have to believe that they were shipped near the end of the season, as US sales began to wane, and they were going to wind up being stale inventory for Topps.
sounds like it is time to take a trip to Venezuela . JMO
<< <i>sounds like it is time to take a trip to Venezuela >>
I was reading A761506's and even before I finished, I had the same thought. Can you imagine? Some little village near Caracas using crates and crates of 1952 Topps as ... desks, retaining walls, etc. Anybody got Andres Galarraga's email address or cell phone number?
/s/ JackWESQ
HK
<< <i>Very intriguing. I have never heard this story. That is nuts! Why did he supposedly dump then? When did it happen? >>
Apparently the dumping took place in '59 or '60.
Berger dramatically improved the design for '52 and it sold so well, Topps decided to produce a second series. "By the time it came out, it was World Series time. We learned that kids don't buy baseball cards at World Series time because football is starting," Berger told the Associated Press last year. "We had a lot of cards left over, packed in boxes in our warehouse." Berger hired a garbage boat, loaded the cards and rode with them as a tugboat pulled them off the New Jersey shore. In a flash, the cards were dumped into the Atlantic Ocean. "I don't know how many cards there were, but it was enough to make you a millionaire," he said. "We didn't know."
Source
Berger Video interview
Dick Gilkeson's ocean mention
Wikipediaanother
Google will get you more articles.
Useless bit of info- I read they would start their shipments March 1st.
BUT and this is a big but he said it so that in and of itself makes it more then myth.
Does it make it fact? depends if you believe him or not.
Steve
<< <i>Al Rosen would have found the 300-500 cases eventually, no matter where they wound up, and the card value would probably be worth more than it is today!
PoppaJ >>
Haha, I can see the picture of his grining face and a thumbs up while under water after finding the stash. That is a priceless image right there, lol.
ebay i.d. clydecoolidge - Lots of vintage stars and HOFers, raw, condition fully disclosed.
Apparently the dumping took place in '59 or '60.
Berger dramatically improved the design for '52 and it sold so well, Topps decided to produce a second series. "By the time it came out, it was World Series time. We learned that kids don't buy baseball cards at World Series time because football is starting," Berger told the Associated Press last year. "We had a lot of cards left over, packed in boxes in our warehouse." Berger hired a garbage boat, loaded the cards and rode with them as a tugboat pulled them off the New Jersey shore. In a flash, the cards were dumped into the Atlantic Ocean. "I don't know how many cards there were, but it was enough to make you a millionaire," he said. "We didn't know."
Source
Berger Video interview
Dick Gilkeson's ocean mention
Wikipediaanother
Google will get you more articles.
Useless bit if info- I read they would start their shipments March 1st. >>
Awesome! Thanks. That is a great story, true or not. I can envision it now... I believe it's true.