Another scammer..Selling fake "proofs" be careful

dizzle · August 16, 2008 3:22AM

Just wantd to let the board know of a seller on ebay selling fake proof cards.

Here is a quote from a different site of someone whom he scammed..

"Alright well about 6 months ago I purchased a couple Shaq "proof cards" from an Ebay seller / Beckett member. After receiving the cards I made a post and someone told me that they werent proofs at all. Someone simply boiled the Topps Finest and Topps Chrome cards and you were left with the product I had in my hands. I took some old Finest cards and boiled them as well as an experiment and i came up with the same outcome. So obviously they werent proofs, so I told the seller / member this and he refunded my money. No big deal. After I told him that he went and did it and he got the same result. He then told me not to mention it to too many people because he was still selling the cards as "proofs" on Ebay. So a couple weeks or so went by and I didnt see any of his "proof" cards on Ebay. Well then I found some more so I wrote to him basically asking him how he could sell them still even after he found out that they were fake. I never got a response from him because he obviously ignored my email. Well looking on ebay again, he is still selling them and I think its time I brought this up and told everyone to be careful"

I hate to do this to a fellow member either but enough is enough. He is very respected on here and throughout Beckett for his collection. But I hate to see him scam people like he is doing.

He has at least 20 pages of feedback from selling these fakes on Ebay. Its not only Basketball either.

Here's a link to one of the fake Proof acutions so everyone can see what they look like..

LINKY

mtcards · August 16, 2008 3:38AM

How does the printing come out in reverse by boiling the card? Almost makes me want to pull a few finest out just to see it myself

digicat · August 16, 2008 3:42AM

<< How does the printing come out in reverse by boiling the card? Almost makes me want to pull a few finest out just to see it myself >>

When you boil the card, it removes the paper backing, so when you turn the card around, you get this.

dizzle · August 16, 2008 3:46AM

<< 

<< How does the printing come out in reverse by boiling the card? Almost makes me want to pull a few finest out just to see it myself >>

When you boil the card, it removes the paper backing, so when you turn the card around, you get this. >>

Yup, the guy has 20 pages of positive feedback from selling these fakes and has made over 4 grand off this worthless junk...

Barfvader · August 16, 2008 4:14AM

Well I just had to give it a shot and Danny Ferry was happy to jump at the chance for this experiment.

Into the pot he go.

BOIL!!! BOIL!!!

After a few minutes.

And one super de duper rare proof.

Wonder how many of these I could make and sell in my neck of the woods, NOT!!!!!!

CDsNuts · August 16, 2008 4:18AM

I just boiled my Walter Payton rookie but it didn't have the same effect. I think I did something wrong.

digicat · August 16, 2008 4:31AM

<< I just boiled my Walter Payton rookie but it didn't have the same effect. I think I did something wrong. >>

You'll need to consult an alchemist before you try that again.

itzagoner · August 16, 2008 4:34AM

<< I just boiled my Walter Payton rookie but it didn't have the same effect. I think I did something wrong. >>

you forgot to add sugar.

Leiascards · August 16, 2008 4:43AM

You know it takes a buyer for a seller to run a successful scam.

dizzle · August 16, 2008 4:46AM

<< You know it takes a buyer for a seller to run a successful scam. >>

Never knew that..Huh.

nam812 · August 16, 2008 4:49AM

<< ........I hate to do this to a fellow member either but enough is enough. He is very respected on here.......... >>

Maybe I just read the original post wrong, but are you outing someone or not?

dizzle · August 16, 2008 5:02AM

<< 

<< ........I hate to do this to a fellow member either but enough is enough. He is very respected on here.......... >>

Maybe I just read the original post wrong, but are you outing someone or not? >>

Nam, I read it in another thread on another board.. I brought it up here just incase.. Because I know people buy modern over hear as well..

So to answer you question.. No I'm not.. as the 2nd sentence of my original post says "Here is a quote from a different site of someone whom he scammed"..

Just didn't want to see anyone from the boards buy this guys crap..I never knew you could do this to finest cards until reading it myself today..

mtcards · August 16, 2008 5:15AM

<< 

<< I just boiled my Walter Payton rookie but it didn't have the same effect. I think I did something wrong. >>

you forgot to add sugar. >>

Yep, in order to have "Sweetness", ya gotta add the sugar

nam812 · August 16, 2008 5:37AM

<< ......... as the 2nd sentence of my original post says "Here is a quote from a different site of someone whom he scammed"............ >>

Yes, and after the quotation marks ended, I thought that was you talking again where it reads "I hate to do this to a fellow member either but enough is enough. He is very respected on here and throughout Beckett for his collection. But I hate to see him scam people like he is doing."

No biggie.

GoDodgersFan · August 16, 2008 5:52AM

Stuff like this just kills the hobby.

Thanks for the warning.

Morgoth · August 16, 2008 6:14AM

No one is really paying over a couple of bucks for these so I can see why he gets away with it. If he were to scam someone over 10 bucks his feedback would diminish quickly.

Leiascards · August 16, 2008 6:20AM

Really all he is doing is creating a new product out of a product he owns. Unethical yes, illegal not really. Many of his buyers may even know what he is doing they just want the novelty of the item in their collection and either can't or won't do it themselves.

Its like the haunted dolls that sell on Ebay. The buyers are paying for the novelty idea not the doll itself.

BunchOBull · August 16, 2008 6:27AM

He's had several Thomas cards show up over the last few weeks...started out in the $5 or $10 range...most didn't sell...came down to .99.

storm888 · August 16, 2008 6:41AM

It's always something.

If it's not one thing, it's something else.

Disgusting.

dizzle · August 16, 2008 6:47AM

<< No one is really paying over a couple of bucks for these so I can see why he gets away with it. If he were to scam someone over 10 bucks his feedback would diminish quickly. >>

Look at his feedback...switch the view to 200 fb's per page and look at some of the prices..The deeper this goes the higher prices realized..

I see a TON of these sold for over 10.00 a bunch over 20 and one for almost 70.00 another for over 70.00 just on the first page

This guy is a powerseller off of these things and has made thousands......

1989FleerBillRipkencollector · August 16, 2008 7:08AM

Thanks.

I almost bought one of these from him a few weeks ago but something seemed wrong.

drewsef · August 16, 2008 8:26AM

<< Really all he is doing is creating a new product out of a product he owns. Unethical yes, illegal not really. Many of his buyers may even know what he is doing they just want the novelty of the item in their collection and either can't or won't do it themselves.

Its like the haunted dolls that sell on Ebay. The buyers are paying for the novelty idea not the doll itself. >>

So what is intentionally altering a card and selling it as something it's not? That is perfectly legal to you?

Leiascards · August 16, 2008 8:32AM

<< 

<< Really all he is doing is creating a new product out of a product he owns. Unethical yes, illegal not really. Many of his buyers may even know what he is doing they just want the novelty of the item in their collection and either can't or won't do it themselves.

Its like the haunted dolls that sell on Ebay. The buyers are paying for the novelty idea not the doll itself. >>

So what is intentionally altering a card and selling it as something it's not? That is perfectly legal to you? >>

Its not illegal in the eyes of the law. Once you legally purchase an item it is yours to do with as you please, look up first sale doctrine. If you could read you would see I said it was unethical but not illegal. If I want to buy a card rip it to shreds and sell it I can do so.

CDsNuts · August 16, 2008 8:34AM

Yes, but if you call it a proof and it's not a proof that is fraud. It's like slapping a BMW logo on the front of a Taurus and selling it as a BMW.

dizzle · August 16, 2008 8:38AM

<< Yes, but if you call it a proof and it's not a proof that is fraud. It's like slapping a BMW logo on the front of a Taurus and selling it as a BMW. >>

well put Lee..

Leiascards · August 16, 2008 8:38AM

<< Yes, but if you call it a proof and it's not a proof that is fraud. It's like slapping a BMW logo on the front of a Taurus and selling it as a BMW. >>

True, that is where the saying buyer beware comes in. It takes 2 people to make a scam work the scammer and the scamee. If buyers did not buy this stuff these sellers would disappear.

Remember a couple of years ago there were tons of common cards sellers were foil stamping and calling them one of ones. Topps tried to stop them in court and was denied. After buyers learned the truth they stopped buying now there are very few of these.

I put just as much blame on the buyers on things like this.

drewsef · August 16, 2008 8:38AM

<< 

<< 

<< Really all he is doing is creating a new product out of a product he owns. Unethical yes, illegal not really. Many of his buyers may even know what he is doing they just want the novelty of the item in their collection and either can't or won't do it themselves.

Its like the haunted dolls that sell on Ebay. The buyers are paying for the novelty idea not the doll itself. >>

So what is intentionally altering a card and selling it as something it's not? That is perfectly legal to you? >>

Its not illegal in the eyes of the law. Once you legally purchase an item it is yours to do with as you please, look up first sale doctrine. If you could read you would see I said it was unethical but not illegal. If I want to buy a card rip it to shreds and sell it I can do so. >>

The illegal part is where the seller lies and calls the card a proof. You do seem the type to take up for these type of scumbag sellers though, so it's not a surprise. You really should get out of your basement more.

1989FleerBillRipkencollector · August 16, 2008 8:43AM

<< Really all he is doing is creating a new product out of a product he owns. Unethical yes, illegal not really. Many of his buyers may even know what he is doing they just want the novelty of the item in their collection and either can't or won't do it themselves.

Its like the haunted dolls that sell on Ebay. The buyers are paying for the novelty idea not the doll itself. >>

I almost bought one a few weeks back. Didnt as it didnt seem legit. But I almost did. Seller didnt say novelty, custom or anything like that.

Said it was a proof. It is not a proof.

Leiascards · August 16, 2008 8:46AM

<< 

<< Really all he is doing is creating a new product out of a product he owns. Unethical yes, illegal not really. Many of his buyers may even know what he is doing they just want the novelty of the item in their collection and either can't or won't do it themselves.

Its like the haunted dolls that sell on Ebay. The buyers are paying for the novelty idea not the doll itself. >>

I almost bought one a few weeks back. Didnt as it didnt seem legit. But I almost did. Seller didnt say novelty, custom or anything like that.

Said it was a proof. It is not a proof. >>

Nobody was saying the scam was that he was calling them proofs until I mentioned the legal side of it. They were saying the scam was him doing it and selling them. Actually the OP did, but after that everyone was concerned with the altering and selling them. If he were selling them as customs or novelty there would be no issue.

Yes selling them as proofs is fraudlent, but getting something done about it. I doubt it.

hill33 · August 16, 2008 9:05AM

I have known this seller through different sites for a few years. When I saw a Grant Hill one pop up on eBay I asked him where it came from. He told me that he had purchased a large lot and these cards came from an uncut sheet and he had cut these out himself. I believed it was possible and took his word and paid $20 for a card. I had no reason to question him. That was until the 07-08 Finest "proof" cards started popping up and a few forum posts emerged of exactly what he was doing and how he was producing these "rare proof" cards.

There is a longish thread over on the Ozcardtrader forums Fake Proof Discussion and there are two videos showing the process of creating one of these "proof" cards - one on page 1 and one from myself on page 7.

There are now more cards on eBay which are listed as "colour proofs" - these are just taking the card soaking to the next step. After you are left with the finest/chrome card with the silver backing, you carefully remove the silver backing and *AMAZING* you have yourself a colour proof!

I have no problems if you are doing this and selling them for what they are, but to go out of your way to tell people they are something that they are not and misrepresent the background of the cards is disgraceful.

Barfvader · August 16, 2008 11:00AM

Just adding this seller to this discussion.

1998 Topps Finest "Blank Proof" JAY BUHNER MARINERS

storm888 · August 16, 2008 12:00PM

Just another worthless scamster that EBAY is happy to make money off of.

In the meantime: I still cannot relist my TOPPS Tiffany cards, unless I remove the word "Tiffany" from the title.

Disgusting.

WinPitcher · August 16, 2008 12:06PM

Nobody was saying the scam was that he was calling them proofs

That went without saying, not sure how you can say this guy isn't doing something illegal?

How you blame ignorant buyers also is beyond me.

Steve

WinPitcher · August 16, 2008 2:14PM

If he were selling them as customs or novelty there would be no issue.

If my aunt was a man she would be my uncle.

The problem is he isn't.

Please no more pm's!

Steve

1989FleerBillRipkencollector · August 17, 2008 3:55AM

<< Just adding this seller to this discussion.

1998 Topps Finest "Blank Proof" JAY BUHNER MARINERS >>

So that seller is selling fakes as well and calling out another seller of them?

I made some. No bubbling or damage like he states. They do have a noticable slight bend.

From this..

To this..

storm888 · August 17, 2008 4:32AM

"...They do have a noticable slight bend..."

////////////////////////////

Phonebooks, while the cards are still wet will solve that.

Put the cards in a non-quilted paper-towel, insert midway, and stack
more books above and below.

The cards will be flat as a board.

TNP777 · August 17, 2008 5:26AM

Well, I learned something today. I have three or four of these in my Butler collection that I picked up years ago. I was never quite sure about their history, but they were cool-looking and I didn't pay much - coupla bucks or so. I'll have to take them out of my collection now.

TNTonPMS · August 17, 2008 10:40AM

That was pretty interesting , you know I had to try it too .
It was a cool experiment to try with my son , he was mad when he sa me put it in the water , but when we peeled the back off he was amazed and wanted to do more .

I just threw a couple of commons in naturally, you know ,
all my Emmit Smith and Barry sanders Embossed rare refractors and stuff

That is the first thing I cooked that I didn't burn .

1989FleerBillRipkencollector · August 17, 2008 10:53AM

<< That was pretty interesting , you know I had to try it too .
It was a cool experiment to try with my son , he was mad when he sa me put it in the water , but when we peeled the back off he was amazed and wanted to do more .

I just threw a couple of commons in naturally, you know ,
all my Emmit Smith and Barry sanders Embossed rare refractors and stuff

That is the first thing I cooked that I didn't burn . >>

Yeah,same here. My oldest saw the thread while I was reading and wanted to do it with me. My youngest (6) came up while we were about to drop the cards in the water and asked what we were doing and I told him removing fingerprints. The puzzled look he gave me was priceless.

TNP777 · August 17, 2008 11:46AM

Well, I did my own experiment with four different - '94 Bowman's Best, '94 Finest, '95 Finest and '97 Finest. Two ('94 Bowman & '95 Finest) I already had in my collection. Now I've got dupes. In '97 they must have used a different adhesion process, because the entire card back was still covered in glue when I peeled the paper off. A pretty easy process - seems like too much of a bother though just to make $5-10 on a few of them.

Barfvader · August 17, 2008 12:19PM

ljbiggestfan2 has made his feedback private and all auctions are gone poof.

WinPitcher · August 17, 2008 12:55PM

Geez I wonder why?

Steve

hill33 · August 17, 2008 7:30PM

<< Well, I did my own experiment with four different - '94 Bowman's Best, '94 Finest, '95 Finest and '97 Finest. Two ('94 Bowman & '95 Finest) I already had in my collection. Now I've got dupes. In '97 they must have used a different adhesion process, because the entire card back was still covered in glue when I peeled the paper off. A pretty easy process - seems like too much of a bother though just to make $5-10 on a few of them. >>

The 93-94 finest basketball finished with glue on the back as well. Hot water, washing up detergent and a scrubbing brush make light work of the residue.

Tvac897 · August 18, 2008 1:27AM

<< 

<< How does the printing come out in reverse by boiling the card? Almost makes me want to pull a few finest out just to see it myself >>

When you boil the card, it removes the paper backing, so when you turn the card around, you get this. >>

Get what?

digicat · August 18, 2008 6:16AM

<< When you boil the card, it removes the paper backing, so when you turn the card around, you get this. >>

Get what? >>

The chrome "proof" that is being discussed in this thread.

Barfvader · August 21, 2008 2:31AM

And now ljbiggestfan2 is no longer a registered user.

mexisar · August 21, 2008 2:35PM

the second seller did the opposite

auction warning bidders

beware a powerseller list these and sold hundreds of them, and told me he has hundreds of these and they are really rare and that he cuts them on a papercutter haha!

These are junk!!!

you can also make these by soaking them in boiling water and peeling the back off.

sent by a

Ebay "Power Seller"

For full Email of what this "Power Seller" sent me please email me, I'll be glad to give it to you

I lost $100 or so dollars on this garbage feel free to donate money if this was helpfull

mexisar · August 21, 2008 2:39PM

from chrome_proof
auctions
On Aug-16-08 at 09:13:22 PDT, seller added the following information:

Sorry everybody I got had when I recieved these cards and I dont think anyone else should either

here is what I found out about these cards

Sorry to be pushy up front, but I thought you were purposelly doing this...as I find it pretty odd you have the same players listed that are selling well for me...I would "NOT" put the statement about soaking these in water in your auctions as that would hurt us both and since my are from uncut sheets that doesn't matter....I also find it odd that you just started listing these on ebay now when I did and even started a new account with the name chrome_proof?

Who are you getting these from? I literally have thousands of these which I have/sold as they come about 100 per sheet and some smaller sheets. Do you have any other proof cards other then these?

Patrick
Ljbiggestfan2

No depending on who you bought them from? There are real versions which were made by Topps, but are cut out of uncut sheets like the ones I'm selling. Some of these will be smaller, larger or off centered cut as I have to cut them out with a large paper cutter..Although you can also make these by soaking them in boiling water and peeling the back off...although that boils and bubbles the front of the card from what I hear and ruins the other side...they will also have water marks, stains on them, etc....If you look at all mine they are clear as a whistle with a few scratches from handling, etc...so I can speak for all yours, but some look fake to me.

So since you only have 40 I don't expect to see you listing anymore since you have 38 on now and already sold 30+ others...

Patrick
Ljbiggestfan2

I'm Larry Johnson's (Former NBA/UNLV Star) biggest fan! I'm always looking to buy any RARE card/item with L J pictured on it. If you think you have any item I may need please feel free to contact me. Here is a link to my L J Collection if you care to see it: http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v644/ljbiggestfan2/

Thank you!

1989FleerBillRipkencollector · August 21, 2008 11:50PM

I wonder if "Chrome Proof" gave back the buyers the $ he made from selling these?

hill33 · August 22, 2008 4:26PM

I asked the seller for a refund for the card that I bought and he refused.

Seems because I made some forum posts calling him out this means I am not eligible for his refund offer.

dizzle · December 14, 2008 10:51AM

<< ljbiggestfan2 has made his feedback private and all auctions are gone poof. >>

Looks like he is back with a bunch of his fake "proofs"

LINK>>>>

Another scammer..Selling fake &quot;proofs&quot; be careful

Comments

Another scammer..Selling fake "proofs" be careful