Wow. Can someone say "saturation"? Check out this Chameleon auction!

coinkid855 · July 23, 2008 10:47PM

Chameleon Coins Auction

I've never seen photos juiced so much that the slab is speckled different colors...

-Paul

STONE · July 23, 2008 10:49PM

So that's where all the orange juice went this morning

coinkid855 · July 23, 2008 10:49PM

<< So that's where all the orange juice went this morning

>>

-Paul

Connecticoin · July 24, 2008 1:12AM

That obverse slab photo in the auction is mega-juiced.

Perhaps the seller, a board member, can explain to us why he needed to juice that photo so much -- should be fun.

Casman · July 24, 2008 1:45AM

Seller should buy a copy of Marks Photography book, but in the mean time I'd suggest turning off the headlights...

doh · July 24, 2008 1:48AM

I'm not sure what the issue is? What's wrong with the coin? What am I missing?

Connecticoin · July 24, 2008 7:18AM

<< I'm not sure what the issue is? What's wrong with the coin? What am I missing? >>

The photos are juiced to make the colors look more vivid than they really are. Look at the photo in the auction of the coin in the slab -- the label color is WAAAY off, incidating juicing of the colors using Photoshop.

PrivateCoinCollector · July 24, 2008 7:26AM

Coin is NT with a 100% refund policy from a seller with great feedback. Look elsewhere.

coinkid855 · July 24, 2008 7:29AM

<< Coin is NT with a 100% refund policy from a seller with great feedback. Look elsewhere. >>

I'm not saying that the coin isn't NT, I'm saying that he saturated the picture to make it look more vibrant than it is. I'm sure it is a nice coin, but the photograph is deceptive.

-Paul

nicetoning42107 · July 24, 2008 7:51AM

I'm very aware of this seller and his picture quality.

I actually don't think it's that immoral so long as they accept returns without restocking fee. I'm not a photo-juicer seller on eBay nor am I condoning it, but I'm just saying. . .no photograph truly captures what the coin will look like in hand.

seatedcoins · July 24, 2008 8:12AM

I think he is trying to capture the actual look of the toning on the coin which is hard at times to photograph. I see absolutely no problem with this listing. He replied with an indepth credible response to the question in the listing. 100% refund, not sure why there are complaints.

PawPaul · July 24, 2008 8:14AM

<< I'm not sure what the issue is? What's wrong with the coin? What am I missing? >>

I SEE WHY YOU CALL YOURSELF DOH.........

PawPaul · July 24, 2008 8:20AM

<< Coin is NT with a 100% refund policy from a seller with great feedback. Look elsewhere. >>

FUNNY HOW a person can be guilty of an indiscretion and yet his "posse" will defend him/her 100%

PawPaul · July 24, 2008 8:23AM

<< I'm very aware of this seller and his picture quality.

I actually don't think it's that immoral so long as they accept returns without restocking fee. I'm not a photo-juicer seller on eBay nor am I condoning it, but I'm just saying. . .no photograph truly captures what the coin will look like in hand. >>

.......oh boy .............. i agree no picture can define the original ; but lets get something straight : the o.p. sez the pix is heavily saturated -that's the issue.

A seller owes it to the customer to not enhance so much as to be intentionally deceptive

Bochiman · July 24, 2008 8:24AM

<< 

<< Coin is NT with a 100% refund policy from a seller with great feedback. Look elsewhere. >>

FUNNY HOW a person can be guilty of an indiscretion and yet his "posse" will defend him/her 100% >>

Also funny how, at times, someone has done no wrong, yet another "posse" will jump in on attacks once kicked off.....

Seen it many times on these boards.....

PawPaul · July 24, 2008 8:27AM

<< I think he is trying to capture the actual look of the toning on the coin which is hard at times to photograph. I see absolutely no problem with this listing. He replied with an indepth credible response to the question in the listing. 100% refund, not sure why there are complaints. >>

may i get in line to suck up to this seller ??

he is a good guy , and he offers a good solid return -

but he is juicing the heck out of the image -and that is wrong

and you oddjob's that don't see the harm in excessive saturation/juicing must have your own demons to chase.......

Broadstruck · July 24, 2008 8:28AM

PawPaul · July 24, 2008 8:29AM

<< 

<< 

<< Coin is NT with a 100% refund policy from a seller with great feedback. Look elsewhere. >>

FUNNY HOW a person can be guilty of an indiscretion and yet his "posse" will defend him/her 100% >>

Also funny how, at times, someone has done no wrong, yet another "posse" will jump in on attacks once kicked off.....

Seen it many times on these boards..... >>

i believe it's wrong to defend someone who has erred

doh · July 24, 2008 8:40AM

<< I SEE WHY YOU CALL YOURSELF DOH......... >>

Jeez, no reason to be a jerk about it. I was asking a legit question. I don't collect toned dollars. I didn't know if the OP thought the coin was fake or whatever else. Remind me to never ask for your help again. Yikes.

lcoopie · July 24, 2008 8:42AM

I think that
any way you look at the holder,
in any light,
you will not see what this photo shows
therefore, the photo does not depict the holder accurately

everyone who has a pcgs slab can look at it in any light they want
and it will not look like the photo of the slab shown

and this indicates the coin will not either

bdunndchi · July 24, 2008 8:54AM

<< So that's where all the orange juice went this morning

>>

nice!

seatedcoins · July 24, 2008 9:42AM

<< 

<< 

<< Coin is NT with a 100% refund policy from a seller with great feedback. Look elsewhere. >>

FUNNY HOW a person can be guilty of an indiscretion and yet his "posse" will defend him/her 100% >>

Also funny how, at times, someone has done no wrong, yet another "posse" will jump in on attacks once kicked off.....

Seen it many times on these boards..... >>

I do not know this seller. Give it up already. You have 5 of the 20 posts. Is there something personal or business wise behind your attacks of this seller?

PrivateCoinCollector · July 24, 2008 9:47AM

<< 

<< Coin is NT with a 100% refund policy from a seller with great feedback. Look elsewhere. >>

FUNNY HOW a person can be guilty of an indiscretion and yet his "posse" will defend him/her 100% >>

Posse? I don't even have a horse, let alone know who this person. Wow another large inference. Hmmmm.... have we found a button... Press. Press. Press.

tsacch · July 28, 2008 10:55PM

The coins look juiced, period. That being said, and not to defend the guy, but I have taken pics of coins before and they are all wrong......I play with the buttons a little and they look more like what the coin looks like in hand, not perfect, but closer. sure the slab looks wrong. Sure, its juiced. but i don't sell coins much and don't monkey with the pics of the ones I do list, whether it be computers or cameras.

CHAMELEON · July 29, 2008 4:24AM

I know the first picture looks "juiced", but this was one of the most difficult coins I've ever had to photograph. I took over 200 pictures in 3 separate sittings with this coin. I enhanced that first picture so that it best represents what the coin actually looks like in hand. The very last picture shows all the colors too, but you can tell from the slab insert that it was not enhanced. The glare coming off the plastic made it incredibly tough to get a good shot of this coin. Someone had asked about the enhanced photo, and the question and reply are now posted in the listing for this coin. I do not juice up all my pictures, but it seemed necessary with this coin to portray what it really looks like. I do my best to accurately represent all my coins in the pictures I use, so that the buyer will get exactly what they expect. I'd much rather have repeat business than make a lot on one sale of a "juiced" coin. I hope this helps clear things up. Thanks.

Martin

Ebay Aucctions
Chameleon Coins Website

Connecticoin · July 29, 2008 1:12PM

<< I do not juice up all my pictures, but it seemed necessary with this coin to portray what it really looks like. I do my best to accurately represent all my coins in the pictures I use, so that the buyer will get exactly what they expect. >>

Horsecrap. There is no way the coin looks like the one in the photo where the blue slab insert is juiced green.

BlindedByEgo · July 29, 2008 1:28PM

Like two packs of hyenas - both sides.

DustyCoinbox · July 29, 2008 1:39PM

Nothing a few mouse clicks wouldn't cure actually. Kinda pretty coin too, imho:

CHAMELEON · July 29, 2008 2:13PM

<< 

<< There is no way the coin looks like the one in the photo where the blue slab insert is juiced green. >>

Look at the very last picture. The colors on this coin are awesome (much nicer than the pictures)! Connecticoin, if you really think that the coin looks nothing like the picture why don't you take the Pepsi challenge. If you buy it and you don't think it looks just like the picture, you can return it and I'll give you a full refund (plus refund the S&H) and I'll give you an extra $10 just for playing. What you see is what you'll get. Take me up on my offer, and I'll accept your apology after you receive the coin. I would love to prove one of you non-believers wrong.

lcoopie · July 29, 2008 7:04PM

another way of handling this type of "difficult coin to photograph"
would be to take an "unjuiced picture"
and describe the coin in detail
such as when tilted just so, these colors come out or whatever you want to say
when the color is adjusted by software, it looks very suspicious to many buyers

Steve27 · July 29, 2008 9:03PM

Funny, but the grade is what bothers me most. How did a coin with a strike that weak get into a 65 holder?

coinpictures · July 29, 2008 10:14PM

I can't speak to the intentions of the seller. He seems like a good guy on the surface, and is a board regular.

That being said, after viewing the inventory on his web site, there's no way I would ever purchase. Why? Virtually all the coins with any semblance of color have HEAVILY juiced (oversaturated) photos. It's not just THIS coin. This type of methodology across the board raises all sorts of red flags in my mind (whether they are legitimate or not).

If it's a photography skill, equipment, or lighting issue, for your own sake, please either get Mark's book or outsource your photography. You're currently doing yourself a disservice. Granted, I'm overly sensitive to "unnatural" coin photos, but I'm willing to bet that there are other potential buyers that are scared off as well.

I too will periodically use contrast and hue adjustments in Photoshop to make photos look closer to the coin in hand, but nowhere near the garish extent to which those pictures have been boosted. Those just scream out "FAKE!"

It reminds me of a certain "neon" toned morgan collecting site where virtually every picture on the site has been been artificially boosted beyond belief, and the members sit around oohing and aahing the juiced pictures. *bleagh* *shudder*

Broadstruck · July 29, 2008 10:18PM

CHAMELEON, No offense... BUT have any of your buyers ever recognized a coin when it shows up in the mail

CHAMELEON · July 30, 2008 9:04PM

You guys are too much. Read my feedback and you'll see many that say "just as described". I've got a rather large number of repeat buyers because I sell nice, colorful coins and people get what they expect. If you have doubts, buy one coin from me (get one for $0.99 that no one else bid on), and test the waters. I've sold many coins as a store item, and sold some with a significant premium. All my store items have a 7 day return option, but I've never had a single one returned. I list them as close to what they will look like in hand. The picture here that started this post obviously shows the slab with different colors than it is, but the way that the coin appears in the same shot is damn close to dead on. Look at my post in the Buy, Sell, Trade section and you'll see that another regular forum member vouches for the appearance of my 1948-P quarter that is pictured below, because he sold it to me. It really is that colorful, and so are most of my other coins. I don't buy junk, and I don't sell junk. I search hard for exceptional rainbow toned coins, and work hard to earn my customers repeat business. If I was doctoring up all my photos as some of you imply, I wouldn't think that so many people would be as happy as they are with the coins they receive. I wouldn't think that they would come back and bid on more coins either, but they do. Don't knock me until you try me. Because I also sell coins on consignment, I do not usually offer refunds on my auctions with a $0.99 start, but if you were really disappointed with your coin I would refund your money or give you a store credit if the coin was one sold on consignment. I aim for your satisfaction and return business, not for a one time sale and a few extra bucks on misrepresented coin. Unfortunately, there are quite a few sellers on Ebay with no integrity or any sort business ethics that alter their coins or use deceptive pictures, but I assure you that I am not one of them. I see that several people that have never purchased any coins from me before have commented on my "juiced" picture, but I haven't seen a single comment from a person that has bought from me before. There's a reason for that.

Boom (a Master Collector) says this:

<< I like and can vouch for the Washington Quarter. The coin was this colorful when I sold it to him. Original toning by ME. ------------------------- Boom's Retired Registry Set >>

Ebay Auctions
Chameleon Coins Website

lcoopie · July 30, 2008 9:11PM

coinpictures says it very well,
and the board members are trying to help you, IMO,
but you are free to disagree

CHAMELEON · July 30, 2008 9:26PM

I know, and I appreciate that. That last one was a reply to a few other members. I also wanted to state that this coin is a SOLID MS-65 (could possibly go MS-66 if resubmitted). There is nothing weak about the strike and the surfaces are super clean. If anyone cares to take the Pepsi challenge with this coin, read my previous thread. That deal is open to anyone that wants to test the waters.

Martin

Broadstruck · July 31, 2008 3:28AM

Connecticoin · July 31, 2008 3:48AM

<< There is no way the coin looks like the one in the photo where the blue slab insert is juiced green.

Look at the very last picture. The colors on this coin are awesome (much nicer than the pictures)! Connecticoin, if you really think that the coin looks nothing like the picture why don't you take the Pepsi challenge. If you buy it and you don't think it looks just like the picture, you can return it and I'll give you a full refund (plus refund the S&H) and I'll give you an extra $10 just for playing. What you see is what you'll get. Take me up on my offer, and I'll accept your apology after you receive the coin. I would love to prove one of you non-believers wrong. >>

I am NOT talking about the last picture, I am talking about the one with the slab juiced Green. Which photo are we supposed to believe?

Even if the coin looks like the pic in the last photo, it is spotchy and has negative eye appeal IMO, and like the other poster mentioned, I wonder how it got in a gem holder in the first place.

The oversaturation of the photos on your website is bordering on ridiculous. There is no way the actual coin looks like this in hand:

These images misrepresent the coins you are selling. Regardless of whether or not you offer a return privilege, nobodys wants to waste time returning coins. A copy of Mark Goddman's Numismatic Photography book would be a very wise investment for you.

CHAMELEON · July 31, 2008 3:54AM

I realize that you are referring to the picture on top. The slab is obviously not as it actually appears, but the coin is. Compare the appearance of the coin in the "juiced" picture to the appearance of the coin in the last picture. I'm looking at the coin, and the picture is not far off at all from what it really looks like. It is very colorful and has an excellent strike. Believe whatever you like, but my offer is on the table for you to see for yourself. With my offer you win either way. I'd love for someone on the message boards to take me up on the offer so that what I'm saying could be validated.

kryptonitecomics · July 31, 2008 6:39AM

Let me state for the record....he is juicing the images and admits to doing so to try to show you what the coin looks like in hand. I believe his picture taking abilties are not up to par with some of the rest of us but I believe that he is tweaking the images to show off what the coins look like in hand. How succesful he is being with that tweaking is between him and the buyer....I don't know about all of the coins he has listed.....but I know of a few since I sold them to him.

This one:

">1956 Frankie

This coin was hard to image because it's basically flat grey with a rainbow crescent on the lower left half of the Obverse......I would say that his image accurately represent this coin in hand.

This one:

1958-D frankie

In hand I would say the coin is more colorful than his full slab shot......and less colorful then just the images of the coin cropped.....but the coin has amazing color so if you were to purchase this coin...you would not be sending it back becuase it's a knockout. The twin from this original set got a star designation from NGC and this didn't which made no since becuase the coins are nearly identical.

Here is my image of the coin....keep in mind that I had the benifit of having the coin raw so I was able to get ample light on the surface and.......(sorry Martin) but I think I have a lot better technique/camera

I am not siding for or against here...I don't like juicing images for any reason but as a seller....if I couldn't get the images accurate I wouldn't want to leave money on the table either. I once sold a bunch of toners through heritage and their images were so devoid of color that I probably lost like $5000 bucks in sales becuase nobody online could see how nice the coins were.

Robb · July 31, 2008 7:38AM

<< Boom (a Master Collector) says this:

<< I like and can vouch for the Washington Quarter. The coin was this colorful when I sold it to him. Original toning by ME. ------------------------- Boom's Retired Registry Set >>

>>

BOOM claims to have gotten step-by-step directions from MANOFCOINS, an admitted toning doctor, on how to tone Washingtons.

There are multiple post in the thread about it so I won't quote any one in particular. It is however possible that BOOM was flat out lying about it all along.

Over on the BST, BOOM claims that the Washington he sold to Chamelion went from white to multiple color changes as if it were the magical horse in Wizard of Oz, saying:

"For the record, regarding the colors of this Washington Quarter that I say was toned by ME
- this is exactly what transpired.

I introduced someone to the hobby this the past year. Not wanting to see this person get
burned I advised to be very careful - to check for sellers' longevity and feeback %.
I also said to stick with certified coins.

The individual fell for one of these PCGS "look-alikes", designed specifically to fool novices &
that's exactly what it did - fooled this person that is totally new to all this. Feeling badly for
this newbie, I bought the coin, cracked it out and set it aside. At this point the coin was WHITE!

Almost immediately upon cracking this White coin out, setting it aside on a clean Beach Towel
atop a tray on my side-desk, doing absolutely NOTHING to the coin, it began to turn RED! It is
very unique, indeed! In hindsight I now wish I had kept it and submitted it myself because no
matter the circumstances, it made it past grading and is actually very lustrous and quite beautiful.

I have never seen a coin react to AIR the way this gorgeous White coin did, so quickly!
Red turned to Blue & then to Green. Over the span of just a few short weeks, doing nothing
more than simply cracking it out, this piece that was White as any coin I've ever seen, with no
detectable signs of having been tampered with, reacted to AIR, finally settling in as the vivid
colors now seen. I auctioned the piece RAW, described and photographed it to the best of my
ability.

The rest is History! I have been around coins for more years than I care to admit. I've taken
the ANA courses, including Detceting Altered & Counterfeit US Coins and have NO IDEA what
agent the original seller used to make it turn the vivid colors of Green Red, Yellow and Blue.

The buyer, as is the case with all buyers, was extended a Money Back Guarantee. He immediately
fell in Love with the coin, had it graded and it now is exactly as shown. It's a very vivid color combination and made it through grading. As for ME "doing" anything to it other than declared here,
nothing took place.

This IS the History of this coin as I know to be True. It is the colors shown. How it got this way,
I have NO IDEA!"

Link from MOC to BOOM about ATing combined with Chameleon tweaking pics is enough for me to stay far, far away.

CHAMELEON · July 31, 2008 1:31PM

Thank you for your input here Shane. It is appreciated. Perhaps I'll look into the coin photography book someone mentioned in an earlier reply. A large part of it is my camera. I used to have a top of the line Sony Cybershot, but it got lost in a move. I was in a pinch and had to have a camera so I got what was accessible at the time, which was a basic model Kodak camera from Wal-Mart. It is terrible for shooting copper coins, and it is only 6.1 mega pixels. There are not many options for the white balance either, only auto, daylight, tungsten, flourescent, and open shade. It's very difficult to get a perfect shot with this camera. I'm going to be investing in a new one very soon. Shane, you've bought a coin or two from me in the past. Do you remember if the photos were a decent representation of the coin's actual appearance?

Ebay Auctions
Chameleon Coins Website

kryptonitecomics · July 31, 2008 10:25PM

Honestly...I don't remember but I know I didn't send anything back and I am pretty sure I left positive feedback?

I think the difference for me and some of the other folks that do routinely take coin photographs is that I can look at an image and get a good idea of what it will look like in hand...whether the image is good or bad and I bake that into my bid price. I think what the board is concerned with is potentially a newer collector seeing the images and having the expectation that the coin is going to glow in the dark....which it's not. The good news is that you offer a return policy...but I think getting a new camera is important becuase there will be a lot of experienced customers that see those images and stay away

lcoopie · August 1, 2008 12:50AM

I believe Mark Goodman points out
the camera is not the important part of coin photography

and others have said this as well

Wow. Can someone say "saturation"? Check out this Chameleon auction!

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Wow. Can someone say &quot;saturation&quot;? Check out this Chameleon auction!

Comments

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Wow. Can someone say "saturation"? Check out this Chameleon auction!