Sale of Noe Coins to Net Ohio more than the 50 Million he spent, but..
rgCoinGuy
Posts: 7,478 ✭
rgCoinGuy
Posts: 7,478 ✭
Quid pro quo. Yes or no?
Comments
-donn-
"The bureau recently sold stock in Numismatic Guaranty Corporation, a Florida-based coin grading company, for $7.6 million."
Does anyone recall what percentage of the total company the Noe stock holdings constituted? If we know that, we can figure out what the current market value of NGC is.
Coin Rarities Online
<< <i>Did the state of Ohio pay two commissions for selling the coins: one to the non-numismatic liquidator and then to whatever auction firms the liquidator may have consigned items to sell?
-donn- >>
By the the paragraph below I would say yes.
"The bureau is projecting net proceeds of $53.5 million to $54.9 million from the coin funds after deducting at least $6.2 million in expenses. The expenses so far consist of $1.2 millions in settlements and $4.6 million in professional services, including $2.4 million for Development Specialists Inc"
You wouldn't believe how long it took to get him to sit still for this.
<< <i>Did the state of Ohio pay two commissions for selling the coins: one to the non-numismatic liquidator and then to whatever auction firms the liquidator may have consigned items to sell? Do we also know if the liquidator got top dollar for the numismatic items in a bull market, or hurridly pushed 'em out the door to recover whatever cash could be quickly obtained? Inquiring minds want to know....
-donn- >>
There was a big story about this. If I recall the auction process, each bidder had to put up $10,000 as a deposit before being allowed to bid, and it wasn't just showing that credit was available, they actually had to put up a deposit. There were a bunch of other rules and restrictions that reduced the number of bidders substantially. If there are fewer bidders, it's likely that prices realized were reduced also because of less competition. Let's see, Heritage, Stacks, Goldbergs, and Bowers and Merena don't have rules like that and they seem to be doing just fine. For what it's worth.
An authorized PCGS dealer, and a contributor to the Red Book.
<< <i>
<< <i>Did the state of Ohio pay two commissions for selling the coins: one to the non-numismatic liquidator and then to whatever auction firms the liquidator may have consigned items to sell?
-donn- >>
By the the paragraph below I would say yes.
"The bureau is projecting net proceeds of $53.5 million to $54.9 million from the coin funds after deducting at least $6.2 million in expenses. The expenses so far consist of $1.2 millions in settlements and $4.6 million in professional services, including $2.4 million for Development Specialists Inc" >>
Amazing how much money professional services and DEV SPEC INC can milk out of a govt project....
They short changed things alot of money.....
I would imagine the D's in the state are just upset that they got more then 50 million otherwise they would still be talking about it.....
The Toledo Blade reported that “after more than three years of liquidation, the agency is set to recoup more than the $50 million the state agency fronted former Toledo-area rare-coin dealer Tom Noe to manage the venture beginning in 1998. But the surplus deviates vastly from the $14 million or more in profit the bureau could have earned if it invested the money conservatively in money markets, government bills, or index funds, according to projections by the BWC’s investment department.”
This issue can get spun a dozen different ways.....
From a coin collector pov there are 2 things that are important.....
1) this caused coins to be taxed in Ohio, where they where not before
2) the state auctioned these off poorly and cost themselves an untold amount of money
I also suspect that the powers that be chose to structure the liquidation in the manner that took place in an attempt to minimize the recovery, again for political reasons.
<< <i>I also suspect that the powers that be chose to structure the liquidation in the manner that took place in an attempt to minimize the recovery, again for political reasons. >>
Bingo!!! I have no doubt whatsoever that they would have made far more money letting Heritage handle the liquidation of the coins.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>Ohio could have definitely made a lot more money off those coins had they been disposed of properly. If they don't like the amount they received they only have themselves to blame. >>
No. They have Noe to blame.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Fat chance. The Ohio fund managers would have likely been heavily into SIV's, derivatives, and other hogwash like most every other state, municipality, and union. They would have lost millions on those "safe AAA" high earning investments. In fact, Noe's coins would have outperformed most state pension funds which are probably bleeding from the credit/derivatives fiasco. Ironically, buying coins was one of the smartest things they could have done....had they done it with more oversight and due diligence. As Will Rogers said, "I am less interested in the return ON my money, than I am in the return OF my money." Amen! And with otc derivatives, there is little return of one's money going on today.
Go ahead and show me the "conservative" investments at play by most large pooled funds such as mentioned above.
roadrunner
<< <i>But the surplus deviates vastly from the $14 million or more in profit the bureau could have earned if it invested the money conservatively in money markets, government bills, or index funds, according to projections by the BWC’s investment department.”
Fat chance. The Ohio fund managers would have likely been heavily into SIV's, derivatives, and other hogwash like most every other state, municipality, and union. They would have lost millions on those "safe AAA" high earning investments. In fact, Noe's coins would have outperformed most state pension funds which are probably bleeding from the credit/derivatives fiasco. Ironically, buying coins was one of the smartest things they could have done....had they done it with more oversight and due diligence. As Will Rogers said, "I am less interested in the return ON my money, than I am in the return OF my money." Amen! And with otc derivatives, there is little return of one's money going on today.
Go ahead and show me the "conservative" investments at play by most large pooled funds such as mentioned above.
roadrunner >>
They may even jumped on the real estate bandwagon or Federal backed mortgages for the disenfranchised lower income constituants of Ohio... we sure know how well they would have done with that...
john