Gold Coins Experts: $2 1/2 and $5 grade and value
chaze215
Posts: 1,310
These are the seller pics and quite poor I must say. I am not too swift with taking pics, but c'mon. Anyway, any input on grades, values, cleaned, strike etc...would be greatly appreciated. Chaz
Chaz
Proud recipient of Y.S. Award on 07/26/08.
Proud recipient of Y.S. Award on 07/26/08.
0
Comments
From this angle it's almost/impossible to detect authenticity.
I would pass.
<< <i>All I have to say is "watch for counterfeits".
From this angle it's almost/impossible to detect authenticity.
I would pass. >>
In hand, what should I look for to confirm authenticity/fake? And if authentic, what would be a fair value for them?
Chaz
Proud recipient of Y.S. Award on 07/26/08.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
"...if authentic, what would be a fair value for them?"
I wouldn't go over $350 for either one but then again, I'm cheap!
Chaz
Proud recipient of Y.S. Award on 07/26/08.
Reading that book will make you uncomfortable and you will want to purchase certified coins; it will take a while for the level of comfort to come back once you have seen enough real ones.
I'm afraid it might be asking a little much for this forum to give you instant-authentication powers.
The surface on that 1880 looks messed with. Even though it might be authentic, it looks like it has more of a whitish haze rather than a luster. I would not buy it. Doctored? Cleaned? Amateur hour? Ugly.
What bothers me about the 1906: The "United States of America" text appears to be closer to the dentils on one side of the coin. Is it an illusion? That doesn't seem right to me, but i've only seen a few quarter eagle liberties up close.
Also, about the 1906. The image shows what may be a spike from the dentil near the star just about 3 o'clock. That just happens to match a detail on page 62 of the US Gold Counterfeit Detection guide. Realize that this guide shows 3 counterfeit 1906 quarter eagles and is by no means a comprehensive list of countefeit dies; it contains just a smattering of common ones. It's just impossible to tell with those photos.
[EDIT] That's "the star just ABOVE the 3 o'clock star"
Lots more where these came from (the real ones _AND_ the fake ones). Another vote for pass.
<< <i>I'm afraid it might be asking a little much for this forum to give you instant-authentication powers. >>
Actually, you only need three things to become an expert authenticator:
1. A quality magnifier
2. A good light source
3. Twenty years experience studying coins
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>
<< <i>All I have to say is "watch for counterfeits".
From this angle it's almost/impossible to detect authenticity.
I would pass. >>
In hand, what should I look for to confirm authenticity/fake? And if authentic, what would be a fair value for them?
Chaz >>
I've always wanted to become an expert in the field of counterfeit gold detection and have many books on the subject. The key first and fourthmost is experience. Look at as many gold coins (certified geniune by PCGS, NGC, ICG, or ANACS) as you can, then when you spot a fake, you will get a "gut" feeling that says the coin just doesn't "look" right. The color may be off. This can be useful in determining the authenticity of gold coins, especially the sculpted field type indian head $10 eagles.
On geniune coins, look for sharp details. Look for die cracks, copper spots, die cracks, die polish , etc. Often times counterfeiters will not take the time to polish their dies, for whatever reason, (being lazy, etc). You can look for die polish in the protected areas of the design of the coin.
On counterfeit coins, there's a few more things you should know. On cast gold counterfeits, look for bubbles or pits. This is caused by the casting process. There's also something called "differential shrinkage" when casting coins which causes the diameter to be off by a bit. This is often why most gold coins (modern) are struck with transfer dies instead of casting. This is also why ancient coins tend to be made with casting, because they were orginally minted less regulartory, so it can be off a little bit in diameter or weight.
Look for any spikes from the denticals of the coins or lines from the letters in the design of the coin. About 2% of these spikes from the denticals and other areas of the coins are GENIUNE, but most are not.
Look for depressions, which are pits, or depressions, in the counterfeit coin which was contact marks or bag marks on the orgininal geniune coin used as a host for the transfer die process. They usually tend to blend into the field , but you can see them when you tilt the coin under an incandescent light, whereas contact marks would be shiny since this disturbs the metal.
Look for mushy/uncrisp details in the lettering. This is also other marker for a counterfeit coin. It takes experience.
Look for small blobs of metal on the surface of the counterfeit coin. I'm not sure why this occurs, but probably has to do with the transfer die process.
Sometimes when the counterfeit sees an imperfection in the die to make the coin, he may try to fix it. This leaves tool marks. Look for tool marks in the field and protected fields. If you have 2 1/2 dollar indian heads specifically, look for toolmarks on the neck of the indian, 75% of all $2 1/2 indians have tool marks here. Ive examined so far one counterfeit indian that didn't though, so becareful.
Not sure on the price/grade, but I hope this helps.
I also suggest you purchase The PCGS guide to counterfeit detection and grading, and Bill Fivaz Counterfeit gold coin book.
Good luck!
<< <i>Sure, there are many diagnostics such as tooling marks, seams around the edge, depressions, voids, design differences, off weight, dimensions, odd strike, an unusual look. Sometimes the signs are very subtle. It is a good idea to get a book on US Gold Counterfeits and read about what to look for. Some counterfeits are very, very good.
Reading that book will make you uncomfortable and you will want to purchase certified coins; it will take a while for the level of comfort to come back once you have seen enough real ones.
I'm afraid it might be asking a little much for this forum to give you instant-authentication powers.
The surface on that 1880 looks messed with. Even though it might be authentic, it looks like it has more of a whitish haze rather than a luster. I would not buy it. Doctored? Cleaned? Amateur hour? Ugly.
What bothers me about the 1906: The "United States of America" text appears to be closer to the dentils on one side of the coin. Is it an illusion? That doesn't seem right to me, but i've only seen a few quarter eagle liberties up close.
Also, about the 1906. The image shows what may be a spike from the dentil near the star just about 3 o'clock. That just happens to match a detail on page 62 of the US Gold Counterfeit Detection guide. Realize that this guide shows 3 counterfeit 1906 quarter eagles and is by no means a comprehensive list of countefeit dies; it contains just a smattering of common ones. It's just impossible to tell with those photos.
Lots more where these came from (the real ones _AND_ the fake ones). Another vote for pass. >>
I appreciate you taking the time to give me that feedback. Thanks again!
Chaz
Proud recipient of Y.S. Award on 07/26/08.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>All I have to say is "watch for counterfeits".
From this angle it's almost/impossible to detect authenticity.
I would pass. >>
In hand, what should I look for to confirm authenticity/fake? And if authentic, what would be a fair value for them?
Chaz >>
I've always wanted to become an expert in the field of counterfeit gold detection and have many books on the subject. The key first and fourthmost is experience. Look at as many gold coins (certified geniune by PCGS, NGC, ICG, or ANACS) as you can, then when you spot a fake, you will get a "gut" feeling that says the coin just doesn't "look" right. The color may be off. This can be useful in determining the authenticity of gold coins, especially the sculpted field type indian head $10 eagles.
On geniune coins, look for sharp details. Look for die cracks, copper spots, die cracks, die polish , etc. Often times counterfeiters will not take the time to polish their dies, for whatever reason, (being lazy, etc). You can look for die polish in the protected areas of the design of the coin.
On counterfeit coins, there's a few more things you should know. On cast gold counterfeits, look for bubbles or pits. This is caused by the casting process. There's also something called "differential shrinkage" when casting coins which causes the diameter to be off by a bit. This is often why most gold coins (modern) are struck with transfer dies instead of casting. This is also why ancient coins tend to be made with casting, because they were orginally minted less regulartory, so it can be off a little bit in diameter or weight.
Look for any spikes from the denticals of the coins or lines from the letters in the design of the coin. About 2% of these spikes from the denticals and other areas of the coins are GENIUNE, but most are not.
Look for depressions, which are pits, or depressions, in the counterfeit coin which was contact marks or bag marks on the orgininal geniune coin used as a host for the transfer die process. They usually tend to blend into the field , but you can see them when you tilt the coin under an incandescent light, whereas contact marks would be shiny since this disturbs the metal.
Look for mushy/uncrisp details in the lettering. This is also other marker for a counterfeit coin. It takes experience.
Look for small blobs of metal on the surface of the counterfeit coin. I'm not sure why this occurs, but probably has to do with the transfer die process.
Sometimes when the counterfeit sees an imperfection in the die to make the coin, he may try to fix it. This leaves tool marks. Look for tool marks in the field and protected fields. If you have 2 1/2 dollar indian heads specifically, look for toolmarks on the neck of the indian, 75% of all $2 1/2 indians have tool marks here. Ive examined so far one counterfeit indian that didn't though, so becareful.
Not sure on the price/grade, but I hope this helps.
I also suggest you purchase The PCGS guide to counterfeit detection and grading, and Bill Fivaz Counterfeit gold coin book.
Good luck! >>
Thanks for the feedback as well fruitloops. I am not an expert in gold coins (or any coin as a matter of fact). I enjoy gaining knowledge from the folks on here in as many areas as I can. Thanks again!
Chaz
Proud recipient of Y.S. Award on 07/26/08.
In the end, I think it's always a gamble of some sort. How comfortable are you? After all, it's just money. Lots more where that came from.
<< <i>Crappy photos, but there is a nice cartwheel on the quarter eagle, and I am going to grade it MS. The half eagle looks like it has some luster break and friction in the obverse fields especially, so I will grade it choice AU. That's about all I can say. I would not buy them based on the photos. >>
excellent guessing of the grades and i will have to agree.
having that much luster on a gold piece is excellent and puts them
into the upper category of eye appeal.
<< <i>
<< <i>I'm afraid it might be asking a little much for this forum to give you instant-authentication powers. >>
Actually, you only need three things to become an expert authenticator:
1. A quality magnifier
2. A good light source
3. Twenty years experience studying coins >>
For most collectors even that would not be enough, unless they dedicate the entire 20 years to the task. Authentication is two levels above consistent grading, how long does it take the average novice to learn how to grade consistently? Most of the pro graders at the major companies are not expert authenticators. Think about that, pro graders that grade 100,000 coins a year, and are in the loop and hear a lot of the counterfeit news, aren't qualified for the lead authenticator positions, and most never will be. Given that, what chance does an average collector have? Slim and none, and slim left town.
Reading a book, watching a video will help a novice identify low quality fakes. A quality scale, a set of calipers, a magnifier will help against some of the next level of crudely made fakes. For the top quality counterfeits, it takes a lot of expertise, and a constant battle against the latest and greatest. Maybe 1% of collectors can authenticate with any confidence, and even then for the very best fakes, it might be a coin toss and a trip to one of the top experts at the grading companies.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>I'm afraid it might be asking a little much for this forum to give you instant-authentication powers. >>
Actually, you only need three things to become an expert authenticator:
1. A quality magnifier
2. A good light source
3. Twenty years experience studying coins >>
For most collectors even that would not be enough, unless they dedicate the entire 20 years to the task. Authentication is two levels above consistent grading, how long does it take the average novice to learn how to grade consistently? Most of the pro graders at the major companies are not expert authenticators. Think about that, pro graders that grade 100,000 coins a year, and are in the loop and hear a lot of the counterfeit news, aren't qualified for the lead authenticator positions, and most never will be. Given that, what chance does an average collector have? Slim and none, and slim left town.
Reading a book, watching a video will help a novice identify low quality fakes. A quality scale, a set of calipers, a magnifier will help against some of the next level of crudely made fakes. For the top quality counterfeits, it takes a lot of expertise, and a constant battle against the latest and greatest. Maybe 1% of collectors can authenticate with any confidence, and even then for the very best fakes, it might be a coin toss and a trip to one of the top experts at the grading companies. >>
don't forget they walk on water, do not need to eat or drink, and normal people place them on top of mountains
for proper worshipping.
these same "authenticators" are the same ones who all make the same mistakes... micro O morgans...
until they decide a coin needs another looking at. they all use the same research, books, and etc...
they have piles of fake coins in a collection and otherwise are no different then any other person
who has done that type of work for many years. painting authentication, furniture, authgraphs, etc...
basically it is a person who has been around long enough where they are most likely the one who will
have the best "guess".
oi. this hobby... turn something mundane into god like abilities.
those two coins in this thread are nicer then most coins shown here by a mile. we really need
non-angled pics to make a better judgement.
Thanks again!
Chaz
Proud recipient of Y.S. Award on 07/26/08.
unless they are authenticated
that's what I would tell my friend