saint gaudens mint errors-premium?

budfay · July 15, 2008 5:51PM

Hi,

I was dancing through eBay and noticed a buyer who was selling mint-flawed saints at about $500 above normal prices. Are they worth it? Each is graded PCGS 64 ($1500-$1650) or PCGS 65 ($2150).

I thought about adding these oddities to my collection.

What say you?

PerryHall · July 15, 2008 7:02PM

Need more information before we can answer your question. Do you have any pics or a link?

budfay · July 15, 2008 7:16PM

Here are the URL's:

http://cm.ebay.com/cm/ck/1065-29392-2357-0?uid=446664773&site=0&ver=EOIBSA080805&lk=URL&Item=280232026411
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=270256071754

morgansforever · July 15, 2008 7:28PM

1st link

2nd link

Broadstruck · July 15, 2008 7:32PM

There's no major errors on the Saint Gaudens $20's known, just laminations and strike throughs... there is 1 Clipped Planchet that I know of.

The coin on ebay is an early No Motto with a nice sized lamination, you can do a search at Heritage and Teletrade to see what the sell for on average.

Broadstruck · July 15, 2008 7:34PM

If you bought the 1908 it's a better date, as the most common Saint Errors are 1924-1928 Philly's.

PerryHall · July 15, 2008 7:52PM

<< If you bought the 1908 it's a better date, as the most common Saint Errors are 1924-1928 Philly's. >>

The 1908 No Motto Saint is an extremely common date.

seanq · July 15, 2008 11:53PM

<< 

<< If you bought the 1908 it's a better date, as the most common Saint Errors are 1924-1928 Philly's. >>

The 1908 No Motto Saint is an extremely common date. >>

Pretty sure Broadstruck was referring to the Mint error above, not the overall scarcity.

Sean Reynolds

FredWeinberg · July 16, 2008 12:05AM

I've seen many, many hundreds (or more)
of $20 Libs. and Sts. with Struck-Thrus's,
Laminations, etc.

I would think that with some patience,
you could find most grades from MS-62
to MS-64, with such planchet/struck thru
flaws for a very small premium over the
grade, if not a small discount from some
sellers (at coin shows, probably not on
Ebay)

And Raw coins could be found fairly easily too.

Broadstruck · July 16, 2008 3:02AM

<< 

<< If you bought the 1908 it's a better date, as the most common Saint Errors are 1924-1928 Philly's. >>

The 1908 No Motto Saint is an extremely common date. >>

I meant with an error, not as a regular coin.

Broadstruck · July 16, 2008 3:10AM

Here's a pic of the largest strike though that I have seen, the dealer was asking $2100 above the value of the $1150 Saint just for the error.

RWB · July 16, 2008 4:24AM

Gold coins were subject to two inspections at the mint. The first involved weighing and checking each planchet before coining. In addition to removing over-and under-weight planchets, this removed nearly all rolling and blanking errors. After the planchets were struck every coin was again weighed and inspected individually by a crew of women called “selectors” or “adjustors,” depending on the era. At times the defect rate approached 50%. If I recall correctly, at the Philadelphia Mint in 1909 approximately ¼ of all double eagles struck were destroyed due to defects.

(Added: To clarify -- overweight planchets were filed to reduce the weight and reweighed. Underweight planchets were melted. The ladies wore cotton gloves while doing their work. The gloves were burnt weekly to recover gold dust.)

[Correction: approx 15% of the struck 1909 $20 coins were defective.]

BECOKA · July 16, 2008 4:30AM

<< Gold coins were subject to two inspections at the mint. The first involved weighing and checking each planchet before coining. In addition to removing over-and under-weight planchets, this removed nearly all rolling and blanking errors. After the planchets were struck every coin was again weighed and inspected individually by a crew of women called “selectors” or “adjustors,” depending on the era. At times the defect rate approached 50%. If I recall correctly, at the Philadelphia Mint in 1909 approximately ¼ of all double eagles struck were destroyed due to defects. >>

Now that is useful info. Thanks.

PerryHall · July 16, 2008 5:17AM

<< Gold coins were subject to two inspections at the mint. The first involved weighing and checking each planchet before coining. In addition to removing over-and under-weight planchets, this removed nearly all rolling and blanking errors. After the planchets were struck every coin was again weighed and inspected individually by a crew of women called “selectors” or “adjustors,” depending on the era. At times the defect rate approached 50%. If I recall correctly, at the Philadelphia Mint in 1909 approximately ¼ of all double eagles struck were destroyed due to defects.

(Added: To clarify -- overweight planchets were filed to reduce the weight and reweighed. Underweight planchets were melted. The ladies wore cotton gloves while doing their work. The gloves were burnt weekly to recover gold dust.) >>

RWB---Were they still individually weighing and filing planchets when Saints were being minted?

RWB · July 16, 2008 5:23AM

PerryHall - Yes. They tried automatic weighing but were not comfortable with the results for the finished product with gold. They converted to this for silver in 1910-1912. Incidentally, when most mint documents refer to "lights" and "heavies" they are referring to coins that are already within the legal tolerance. They tried to mix coin weights in the little $5,000 bags so that each bag was "on the nose." I don’t know how successful this was.

19Lyds · July 16, 2008 5:23AM

Aren't these coins relatively soft and would it not be relatively easy to "create" a "strike through"?

FredWeinberg · July 16, 2008 6:03AM

If someone 'created' a Struck-Thru,
it would be detectable, imo

dorkkarl · July 16, 2008 6:07AM

of these 2 errors i'd be interested in a retained strike-thru, but most strike thrus are nothing special, just a indentation somewhere on the coin. the lamination is no big deal either, both are pretty usual errors for gold coins

K S

rah1959 · July 16, 2008 6:15AM

<< There's no major errors on the Saint Gaudens $20's known, just laminations and strike throughs... there is 1 Clipped Planchet that I know of. >>

How about the 1909 over 8 overdate?....super cool error that can be seen clearly with the eye. Still underpriced and unappreciated in my opinion.

I should have bought more back when.....

RAH

FredWeinberg · July 16, 2008 6:23AM

The overdate is not a major (mechanical" error,
it's a die variety -

rah1959 · July 16, 2008 6:29AM

<< The overdate is not a major (mechanical" error,
it's a die variety - >>

I understand....I didn't think about it that way....

All the best!
RAH

astrorat · July 16, 2008 6:47AM

<< Here's a pic of the largest strike though that I have seen, the dealer was asking $2100 above the value of the $1150 Saint just for the error.

>>

That's an interesting strike through. What do you think the obstruction was? I would not expect any design elements to show through in the "trough" left by the object through which it was struck...unless there were design elements on the object itself. Did you see this one in hand?

Lane

Broadstruck · July 16, 2008 6:48AM

<< 

<< The overdate is not a major (mechanical" error,
it's a die variety - >>

I understand....I didn't think about it that way....

All the best!
RAH >>

Same with the 1911-D/D and there's a few Triple Die Obverse Saints floating around in PCGS holders... you need a 10x loupe to see any sort of doubleing.

Broadstruck · July 16, 2008 6:50AM

<< 

<< Here's a pic of the largest strike though that I have seen, the dealer was asking $2100 above the value of the $1150 Saint just for the error.

>>

That's an interesting strike through. What do you think the obstruction was? I would not expect any design elements to show through in the "trough" left by the object through which it was struck...unless there were design elements on the object itself. Did you see this one in hand?

Lane >>

I never saw this coin in hand, so I don't know... but it looks like a Cigarette or a #2 Pencil

crypto79 · July 16, 2008 7:21AM

At a show at the dulles expo center last spring their was a guy who had a doubled die rev saint. think it was a 1914 not sure though but it was in a segs holder and the beek of the eagle was clearly doubled.

astrorat · July 16, 2008 8:13AM

<< I never saw this coin in hand, so I don't know... but it looks like a Cigarette or a #2 Pencil

>>

Why do you think some of the design elements are present from the obverse die in the struck-through area? This does not make sense to me for a strike through (or I am missing something!) unless the object that was interfering with the strike was a large lamination from a prior struck coin or something else with a struck design element on it.

Lane

Broadstruck · July 16, 2008 8:41AM

<< 

<< I never saw this coin in hand, so I don't know... but it looks like a Cigarette or a #2 Pencil

>>

Why do you think some of the design elements are present from the obverse die in the struck-through area? This does not make sense to me for a strike through (or I am missing something!) unless the object that was interfering with the strike was a large lamination from a prior struck coin or something else with a struck design element on it.

Lane >>

astrorat, your right as I see you really studied this pic more then I did, as it does look more like a lamination then a strike through.

Never the less NGC has designated that Saint as a Struck-Thru Mint Error.

Here's a Gold Lamination example with all 3 stars still semi fully struck.

astrorat · July 16, 2008 8:52AM

<< Here's a Gold Lamination example with all 3 stars still semi fully struck.

>>

Very cool...

Lane

RWB · July 16, 2008 9:38AM

The 1909/8 double eagles account for between 6% and 28% of the total mintage based on die life records.

Broadstruck · July 16, 2008 4:12PM

Too Funny, as don't think these posts aren't read by lurkers!

The EBay seller whom you bought your coin from just jacked up his price on a strike through MS65 1927 to $5150.00!

I think it was $2K something yesterday

saint gaudens mint errors-premium?

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