Couple questions regarding NCS

CaptainRon · July 12, 2008 4:58PM

1. Generally when a coins is conserved by NCS does it go to NGC for grading.
2. Will they send the coin into PCGS instead of NGC for grading.
3. If the coin goes directly to NGC for grading and is certified by NGC, is there any databases that keeps this information that can be accessed by a collector or dealer, a database of all the NGC coins that came from NCS conserved
4. If or If Not this information is available, is this something the public should be allowed to know, or should it be classified.

Regards
Ron

Connecticoin · July 12, 2008 10:58PM

When you submit a coin to NCS, you have a choice of having the coin graded at NGC (if the coin is gradeable) or returned to you raw.

Those who want to have NCS conserve coins and have PCGS grade them choose to have the coin returned raw, then they submit to PCGS.

LickThoseStamps · July 13, 2008 12:22AM

Why would send a conserved coin to PCGS to get body-bagged?

CaptainRon · July 13, 2008 1:36AM

<< Why would send a conserved coin to PCGS to get body-bagged?

>>

Are you insuating that PCGS will not certify conserved coins?

Regards
Ron

Connecticoin · July 13, 2008 1:40AM

<< 

<< Why would send a conserved coin to PCGS to get body-bagged?

>>

Are you insuating that PCGS will not certify conserved coins?

Regards
Ron >>

If the conserved coin is gradeable, PCGS will not know that NCS conserved it.

charley · July 13, 2008 1:42AM

There is no insinuation because there is no word between "would" and "send".

Respectfully, John Curlis

Connecticoin · July 13, 2008 1:46AM

Regarding questions 3 and 4, I believe the answer to 3 is "no", and my answer to #4 is "it does not matter" as coins are conserved all the time and graded, whether NCS does it or if someone else does.

JohnMaben · July 13, 2008 2:08AM

The techniques that NCS uses are IMO non destructive and most often non detectable and intended only to improve the coins appearance or reverse or halt environmental or PVC damage. Thus, the "conservation", not repair or deceptive alterations aka "doctoring" that would create a body bag situation. If the coin was a body bag to begin with it may still body bag if NCS was unable to correct the issue that earned it the body bag in the first place, such as if it was "harshly" (not dipped once, but abrasively scrubbed) cleaned.

Many dealers and collectors use the very same techniques that NCS uses (such as dipping) routinely on many of their coins. (surprise, surprise) Properly conserved coins are EVERYWHERE. Unlike "restoration" of paper goods, old automobiles, furniture, etc that requires actual "repair" and is typically disclosed, properly conserved coins are not labeled as such. Coin "repair" is a very different story.

Before you get any ideas, unless if you are VERY experienced, leave it to the pro's.

John

charley · July 13, 2008 2:24AM

For John Maben, interesting comments. The key question that was asked is not answered by responses yet. Is NCS treatment of a coin something the public should know(I don't seee how this information could be available unless stated on the Holder)? Would you share your thoughts? Respectfully, John Curlis

JohnMaben · July 13, 2008 2:32AM

<< For John Maben, interesting comments. The key question that was asked is not answered by responses yet. Is NCS treatment of a coin something the public should know(I don't seee how this information could be available unless stated on the Holder)? Would you share your thoughts? Respectfully, John Curlis >>

I think I did answer the question, at least in my opinion.

Broadstruck · July 13, 2008 2:33AM

Might be good to send a NCS coin that's not gradeable to PCGS for a NG No Grade Genuine Only if your looking to sell as these NG coins must be in fashion as they are fetching some intense BLING!

charley · July 13, 2008 2:38AM

Thank You for your response. I don't ask the question in an argumentative or negative vein. I am sincerely interested in your perspective. While you did state "...properly conserved coins are not labeled as such...", this is exactly the thrust of the OP-should this information be public? I understand if you don't respond. Respectfully and Without Malice, John Curlis

JohnMaben · July 13, 2008 2:56AM

<< Thank You for your response. I don't ask the question in an argumentative or negative vein. I am sincerely interested in your perspective. While you did state "...properly conserved coins are not labeled as such...", this is exactly the thrust of the OP-should this information be public? I understand if you don't respond. Respectfully and Without Malice, John Curlis >>

No problem.

OK, I'll spell it out in the most direct possible way, and again this is only my opinion:

Restoration=Repaired
Repaired=Restoration

Above= Disclosure required. Coin has essentially been "re-built", metal moved or added. Details possibly added, etc.

Expert Conservation= A-OK

Above= Disclosure not required. As long as I've been in the business, no one has ever told me nor did I expect them to tell me
if a coin they sold me was conserved, except perhaps as a matter of conversation, not as a matter of obligation.

John

Edited to fix misspelled word. Did I just misspell "misspell"?

charley · July 13, 2008 2:59AM

Thank You for your kind response. Respectfully, John Curlis

lope208 · July 13, 2008 3:03AM

<< The techniques that NCS uses are IMO non destructive and most often non detectable and intended only to improve the coins appearance or reverse or halt environmental or PVC damage. Thus, the "conservation", not repair or deceptive alterations aka "doctoring" that would create a body bag situation. If the coin was a body bag to begin with it may still body bag if NCS was unable to correct the issue that earned it the body bag in the first place, such as if it was "harshly" (not dipped once, but abrasively scrubbed) cleaned.

Many dealers and collectors use the very same techniques that NCS uses (such as dipping) routinely on many of their coins. (surprise, surprise) Properly conserved coins are EVERYWHERE. Unlike "restoration" of paper goods, old automobiles, furniture, etc that requires actual "repair" and is typically disclosed, properly conserved coins are not labeled as such. Coin "repair" is a very different story.

Before you get any ideas, unless if you are VERY experienced, leave it to the pro's.

John >>

Thanks for the description John. This was my basic understanding of NCS but your thoughts make it more clear now.

LickThoseStamps · July 13, 2008 3:10AM

<< 

<< Why would send a conserved coin to PCGS to get body-bagged?

>>

Are you insuating that PCGS will not certify conserved coins?

Regards
Ron >>

Every conserved coin I have seen in an NCS slab has obvious flaws.

I doubt that many end up in PCGS holders. Those that do, are likely to be artifically toned to further cover up problems.

CaptainRon · July 13, 2008 3:34AM

I was viewing a NGC 66 cu/ni IHC recently, the coin was spotted up pretty good on the reverse. This coin had a look to me that had been conserved/dipped in the past and had turned again after certification.

Now I'm not saying that this was done by NCS (The conserving), however I know they will conserve a CU/NI IHC and FE. Occasionally I enjoy the look of the results, other times well I think the coin would have been better off left alone. It's the ones that I enjoy the look of that scare me the most.

This did inspire a tree of questioning regarding NCS. As a company NCS has only been around for approx 6 years or so. I'm sure we can all agree that if a coin is dipped/conserved, that there is the possibilty that any adverse affects of the said conservation could take years to show itself, even when done by the best.

For that reason I personally would like to be able to access a database that would show if a NGC coin was submitted directly from NCS. If conservation is a good thing, then why do we need to hide this information. I myself like to know as much of the history I can of a coin that I purchase, and if said coin was conserved, I feel that is a pretty important day in the history of that coin.

I have not seen any NCS'd coins that have turned, but I would have to say the possibilty would exist.

I feel this knowledge is equally or perhaps even more critical then knowing which coins were viewed by the CAC that did not pass muster. Once again just another important piece of history in regards to that individual coin.

Regards
Ron

CaptainRon · July 13, 2008 3:42AM

<< 

<< 

<< Why would send a conserved coin to PCGS to get body-bagged?

>>

Are you insuating that PCGS will not certify conserved coins?

Regards
Ron >>

Every conserved coin I have seen in an NCS slab has obvious flaws.

I doubt that many end up in PCGS holders. Those that do, are likely to be artifically toned to further cover up problems. >>

The Belief that there are not many conserved coins in PCGS holders may cost you money in the future.
Believing that not many coins conserved by NCS end up PCGS holders, is an illusion that I wish I was still niave enough to believe.

LickThoseStamps · July 13, 2008 3:59AM

<< The Belief that there are not many conserved coins in PCGS holders may cost you money in the future. >>

How so? Isn't something like that covered by their grade guarantee?

CaptainRon · July 13, 2008 4:18AM

<< 

<< The Belief that there are not many conserved coins in PCGS holders may cost you money in the future. >>

How so? Isn't something like that covered by their grade guarantee?

>>

Two coins with the same grade/holder can still have a large varience in price. I you were to pay strong money for a coin, prior to it turning, do you think you will get strong money if PCGS buys it back? Or even worse, what happens if they agree with grade still, then you have to sell for weak money for the grade, or even stong money for the lesser grade.

Yes you can lose money very quickly, especially when the next grade down may be worth 5-10k less.

Regards
Ron

ksteelheader · July 13, 2008 4:42AM

<< 

<< 

<< Why would send a conserved coin to PCGS to get body-bagged?

>>

Are you insuating that PCGS will not certify conserved coins?

Regards
Ron >>

Every conserved coin I have seen in an NCS slab has obvious flaws.

I doubt that many end up in PCGS holders. Those that do, are likely to be artifically toned to further cover up problems. >>

I have a few coins that were conserved that are in PCGS holders. Guess who conserved them?? PCGS, under their spot review submission. Wow, imagine that!!

CaptainRon · July 13, 2008 5:08AM

Ken how long ago was that, if you do not mind me asking?
Do those few coins still appear stable, and maintain the same look that they had right after PCGS conserved them for spot removal?
If so how much longer of a wait do you think it would take, before you would feel 100% confident that those spots will never return?

Thank you
Ron

LickThoseStamps · July 13, 2008 8:21AM

<< Yes you can lose money very quickly, especially when the next grade down may be worth 5-10k less. >>

I see your point. But in my league, that's a problem I'll never have.

ksteelheader · July 13, 2008 8:23AM

<< Ken how long ago was that, if you do not mind me asking?
Do those few coins still appear stable, and maintain the same look that they had right after PCGS conserved them for spot removal?
If so how much longer of a wait do you think it would take, before you would feel 100% confident that those spots will never return?

Thank you
Ron >>

Just last year for the DCAM Franklin. I had some a few years earlier and can't recall any having the spots or haze returning.

MrEureka · July 13, 2008 8:27AM

On the assumption that removing a copper spot from a gold coin requires the removal of the offending copper, how can that be seen as "non-destructive"?

charley · July 13, 2008 8:35AM

I don't know anything about gold. I would ask if it is possible that a copper spot can be external, i.e. from a different source other than as content of the original gold and if this is possible, would the removal be judged as conservation? Respectfully, John Curlis

MrEureka · July 13, 2008 8:38AM

I would ask if it is possible that a copper spot can be external, i.e. from a different source other than as content of the original gold and if this is possible, would the removal be judged as conservation?

My understanding is that copper spots are part of the coin, or what you might call "internal". In other words, the copper that causes the spot was part of the coin on the day it was made.

JohnMaben · July 13, 2008 10:31AM

<< On the assumption that removing a copper spot from a gold coin requires the removal of the offending copper, how can that be seen as "non-destructive"? >>

A spot removal could be performed in a destructive manner just as toning could be removed using destructive methods that would permanently damage the coins surfaces and impair luster. I have seen improper spot removals that were performed with sharp objects leaving scratches where the spot once resided. I have seen the results of toning removed by a brillo pad. I do not believe professional conservation involves methods that damage the coin, and that's exactly why it is professional and not amateur.

This could be debated forever if you attempt to start defining what constitutes "destructive", "non-destructive", "professional", "improper" and other adjectives, and no one would ever agree on everything....

At some point common sense has to kick in.

John

CaptainRon · July 13, 2008 10:42AM

Would you consider the spots on copper coins commonly referred to as 'carbon spots' in the same manner. Did this material originate from said host coin? I can not see how the removal of these are not also destructive, since the removal of the spot quite often leaves an offset in the host coin that was not there when it was minted regardless of the application of removal.

Regards
Ron

charley · July 13, 2008 10:46AM

Thank You, MrEureka and JohnMaben. On the basis of MrEurekas' thoughts that the copper is a part of the coin, if a copper spot is removed, the only logical definition of such a practice is that it is destructive. I don't address the aesthetic improvement, if any, that might or might not occur. The fact is, something that is part of the original coin that is supposed to be present has been removed. This is destruction. Respectfully, John Curlis

JohnMaben · July 13, 2008 10:56AM

<< Thank You, MrEureka and JohnMaben. On the basis of MrEurekas' thoughts that the copper is a part of the coin, if a copper spot is removed, the only logical definition of such a practice is that it is destructive. I don't address the aesthetic improvement, if any, that might or might not occur. The fact is, something that is part of the original coin that is supposed to be present has been removed. This is destruction. Respectfully, John Curlis >>

I respectfully disagree. I believe techniques exist which simply make the spots on gold disappear or fade back into the surounding metal with no actual "removal" of metal taking place.

Regarding copper, there is a misconception that NCS will dip or remove spots just as they would with silver and gold. As far as I know, this is false.

John

charley · July 13, 2008 11:14AM

JohnMaben, actually you do agree. The basis of MrEurekas' thoughts was REMOVAL of an original part of the coin. The basis of your thoughts is a disappearence or fading of original metal back into original metal, WITHOUT REMOVAL of original content. Respectfully, John Curlis

JohnMaben · July 13, 2008 11:23AM

hmmm, ok.......I think it's all semantics.

John

MrEureka · July 13, 2008 11:36AM

This could be debated forever if you attempt to start defining what constitutes "destructive", "non-destructive", "professional", "improper" and other adjectives, and no one would ever agree on everything....

At some point common sense has to kick in.

Common sense has to kick in? You must be new here.

Seriously, it all depends on what happens to the copper when the spot is removed. If it is evaporated, the process is destructive. If it disperses within the coin from whence it came, I'd agree that the process is non-destructive. But my understanding is that the spots are evaporated.

Perhaps a discussion of how copper spots form is in order. Anyone care to enlighten us?

CaptainRon · July 13, 2008 11:38AM

<< 

Regarding copper, there is a misconception that NCS will dip or remove spots just as they would with silver and gold. As far as I know, this is false.

John >>

The following pictures are right from NCS's photo gallery, (Page 6). I have seen other examples as well, however mostly on CU/NI.
Direct Link -- You now know it to be true

CaptainRon · July 13, 2008 11:43AM

I may have just shown a bad example, I will keep it there just in case. But that 64D may be just an off metal, example.

JohnMaben · July 13, 2008 11:48AM

<< 

<< 

Regarding copper, there is a misconception that NCS will dip or remove spots just as they would with silver and gold. As far as I know, this is false.

John >>

The following pictures are right from NCS's photo gallery, (Page 6). I have seen other examples as well, however mostly on CU/NI.
Direct Link -- You now know it to be true

>>

Learn something new everyday, though, I am certain the copper coins they will conserve by dipping or spot removal are few and far between as there is
considerable risk and most just can't be helped..... they will remove residues routinely without dipping. Perhaps the pictured coin was a residue removal that did not involve a jeweluster type dip.... those type of dips typically change the color of copper coins to an artificial appearance, and that is why NCS avoids it. Maybe they have some other method
that doesn't affect color....

tradedollarnut · July 13, 2008 11:53AM

I believe that in many cases PCGS can indeed tell the coin has been conserved and will refuse to cross it. Some of the worst trap coins on the marketplace are overdipped NCS specials graded optimistically by NGC.

JMHO

MrEureka · July 13, 2008 11:57AM

I found a great article on copper spots and their removal here. End of story.

tradedollarnut · July 13, 2008 12:00PM

Avoid Aqua Regia
Aqua regia is a mixture of hydrochloric and nitric acids, it is used to dissolve gold. Obviously do not use it to remove red spot as it will remove your coin as well.

mike92694 · July 13, 2008 12:17PM

<< 1. Generally when a coins is conserved by NCS does it go to NGC for grading.
2. Will they send the coin into PCGS instead of NGC for grading.
3. If the coin goes directly to NGC for grading and is certified by NGC, is there any databases that keeps this information that can be accessed by a collector or dealer, a database of all the NGC coins that came from NCS conserved
4. If or If Not this information is available, is this something the public should be allowed to know, or should it be classified.

Regards
Ron >>

Honest answers as far as I know.

1. If a coin is conserved by NCS, it will go to NGC for grading if the submitter approves and the coin qualifies.
2. NCS is a related spin-off/branch of NGC. I doubt they will send to PCGS.
3. I don't know of any database provided by NGC/NCS that differentiate between conserved and other coins.
4. No answer to point #4.

Couple questions regarding NCS

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